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General/Other - Shaolin Kung Jin (Shaolin) Discussion Thread

Darth Rambo

Darth Rambo

GT:DarthxXxRambo PSN:Darth__Rambo
Ok so originally i was like im more worried about damage f resets, but then i played with tanya a little bit and realized resets win games so can someone give me a run down of the general concept for kung jins resets?
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
Darth Rambo said:
Ok so originally i was like im more worried about damage f resets, but then i played with tanya a little bit and realized resets win games so can someone give me a run down of the general concept for kung jins resets?
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The main one I am aware of is 221 straight arrow (all on hit, not block). Doesn't need to be 221 tho, things like 11 or 112 also work, just end w straight arrow and then continue pressure.
 
Darth Rambo

Darth Rambo

GT:DarthxXxRambo PSN:Darth__Rambo
TackyHaddock said:
The main one I am aware of is 221 straight arrow (all on hit, not block). Doesn't need to be 221 tho, things like 11 or 112 also work, just end w straight arrow and then continue pressure.
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Hmmhmm i never really though of that, straight arrow on hit would put you at +10 right? Im gonna need to try this out sometime.
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
Parasurama said:
I have had difficulty with QC zoning KJ, the runes and the skulls. Getting out of the vortex and hard to blockables. But when it is my turn, I try to corner him and finish him with his poor armor.
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Yeah it's definitely tough. Quan nullifies the upkick from full screen w either his air skull or his NJP. It is of course essential to get in on him but that is extremely hard against a capable quan player. Warlock is arguably worse in some ways due to superior armor

Also, the fuckin runes come out too quickly to even be able to throw chakrams a lot of the time
 
Parasurama

Parasurama

Dragon
TackyHaddock said:
Yeah it's definitely tough. Quan nullifies the upkick from full screen w either his air skull or his NJP. It is of course essential to get in on him but that is extremely hard against a capable quan player. Warlock is arguably worse in some ways due to superior armor

Also, the fuckin runes come out too quickly to even be able to throw chakrams a lot of the time
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I think the answer is not to jump forward, which is our normal response to projectiles (since we catch people with our enhanced divekick). We have to block one (not the enhanced rune because it is still his turn), then run towards him, the best times is when he is in the air, and you run under the air skull, you could catch him still in air for full combo (Air to air). Also the armored flying kick is pretty good is you read the constant zoning. If he is on the ground, then start pressuring. Warlock is difficult, but we should punish his armor more by baiting it. I have not tried using up kick much, but have you tried the armored upkick? what happens? It is safe, so I should have tried using it more. If only the divekick had armor!
 
Parasurama

Parasurama

Dragon
JesterSMX said:
I'm labbing ancestral for pyro tonya and quan. Double arrows breh.
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Thanks, I imagine more options at distance than Shaolin, with the air arrows. Do you have more ideas for the Quan Chi Match up? I also had difficulty zoning Tremor (but my Liu Kang completely zoned the same Tremor with air fireballs and low fireballs) I enjoy zoning and having the opponent come to me. I think should level up a bit more, and mix up the low chakram with the cartwheel kick, I was too predictable.
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
guys, in reo's recent suggested patch changes, I was somewhat disappointed to see him suggest a few nerfs for kung jin (with the exception of the ancestral buffs that he suggested, which we can all agree on, the rest of the changes he suggested for kung jin were nerfs). Maybe this has something to do with Slayer, who knows. In general, I think Shaolin is fine, and I would not be devastated if they did not change him at all, but if anything he needs slight buffs imo. Here are some I can think of:

- Reduce recovery on chakrams by a few frames. Not clear why chakrams have to have so much more recovery than other better projectiles such as pred lasers or LK fireballs. These too often results in unfavorable trades

- Reduce D2 from 11 frames to 8 or 9 frames - this has great range but suffers as an anti air compared to the various 8 frame uppercuts in the game

-slightly reduce startup of upkick

Can you guys think of any other improvements that he could use? @JesterSMX @Kinetic CoRzz @Parasurama @Renzokuken @Darth Rambo @YOMI SLAYER @EVB SomeCubanGuy

Edit - Reo actually also suggested a bojutsu buff to shaolin flame, but my main concern was the suggested nerfs to Ji1 and Ji2 hitboxes as well as the suggested change to ex chakram
 
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Darth Rambo

Darth Rambo

GT:DarthxXxRambo PSN:Darth__Rambo
@TackyHaddock

Honestly if they buffed his recovery on his chakarams (lowered) id be fine with the gap in the ex version up close. Idk how i feel about the jip though im not sure how bad that could be, if it means that you cant starter into ex low chak ji2 dive so forth and so on then no i dont agree. Maybe i just need to start jumping around more lol
 
Parasurama

Parasurama

Dragon
TackyHaddock said:
guys, in reo's recent suggested patch changes, I was somewhat disappointed to see him suggest a few nerfs for kung jin (with the exception of the ancestral buffs that he suggested, which we can all agree on, the rest of the changes he suggested for kung jin were nerfs). Maybe this has something to do with Slayer, who knows. In general, I think Shaolin is fine, and I would not be devastated if they did not change him at all, but if anything he needs slight buffs imo. Here are some I can think of:

- Reduce recovery on chakrams by a few frames. Not clear why chakrams have to have so much more recovery than other better projectiles such as pred lasers or LK fireballs. These too often results in unfavorable trades

- Reduce D2 from 11 frames to 8 or 9 frames - this has great range but suffers as an anti air compared to the various 8 frame uppercuts in the game

-slightly reduce startup of upkick

Can you guys think of any other improvements that he could use? @JesterSMX @Kinetic CoRzz @Parasurama @Renzokuken @Darth Rambo @YOMI SLAYER @EVB SomeCubanGuy

Edit - Reo actually also suggested a bojutsu buff to shaolin flame, but my main concern was the suggested nerfs to Ji1 and Ji2 hitboxes as well as the suggested change to ex chakram
Click to expand...

I definitely feel that the ex chakram mid and low should have plus frames, at least a 1 or 2. Also the ex cartwheel should be safe, I mean why is it punishable, it used to be plus (I think) and we are spending bar. The best thing that could happen to any KJ would be for his overhead to come out quicker but I do not think that will happen. D2 feels really slow, I hardly use it, except for the kove brutality. I think the reason for the ji2 nerf suggestion is because it has so much priority especially if you do it as he is going up, but all they need to do is duck and punish.
 
JesterSMX

JesterSMX

It's too laggy to poke...
TackyHaddock said:
guys, in reo's recent suggested patch changes, I was somewhat disappointed to see him suggest a few nerfs for kung jin (with the exception of the ancestral buffs that he suggested, which we can all agree on, the rest of the changes he suggested for kung jin were nerfs). Maybe this has something to do with Slayer, who knows. In general, I think Shaolin is fine, and I would not be devastated if they did not change him at all, but if anything he needs slight buffs imo. Here are some I can think of:

- Reduce recovery on chakrams by a few frames. Not clear why chakrams have to have so much more recovery than other better projectiles such as pred lasers or LK fireballs. These too often results in unfavorable trades

- Reduce D2 from 11 frames to 8 or 9 frames - this has great range but suffers as an anti air compared to the various 8 frame uppercuts in the game

-slightly reduce startup of upkick

Can you guys think of any other improvements that he could use? @JesterSMX @Kinetic CoRzz @Parasurama @Renzokuken @Darth Rambo @YOMI SLAYER @EVB SomeCubanGuy

Edit - Reo actually also suggested a bojutsu buff to shaolin flame, but my main concern was the suggested nerfs to Ji1 and Ji2 hitboxes as well as the suggested change to ex chakram
Click to expand...
Because his ji1 is 9 frames I could see a change in hitbox. I think most people are annoyed at instant jip that jails. His ji2 is 13 frames so I think the distance should make up for it being slower. Kung Jin looks real stupid whiffing instant jip and I'm guilty of doing it. That is why smart opponents simply duck and trip guard. A lot of d2's beat both ia ji1 and ia ji2. It just comes down to a read I think.

I do disagree with ex chakram having a gap only because it leaves both people at 0. After that it comes down to another read where both people are neutral. Normal chackram is extremely punishable too.

Shaolin doesn't have any special moves or down pokes that are plus. His 7f standing 2 is a high. He doesn't have an armored launcher.

His strengths are his distance and his safety. His far reaching normals are slow enough that they should be useless up close against people that know the matchup. His specials are good but none of them are op. No one can call shaolin cheap. He's just good.

Edit: Forgot about ex arrow being +7 but there's nothing guaranteed after so I don't think that's op either.
 
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TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
JesterSMX said:
Because his ji1 is 9 frames I could see a change in hitbox. I think most people are annoyed at instant jip that jails. His ji2 is 13 frames so I think the distance should make up for it being slower. Kung Jin looks real stupid whiffing instant jip and I'm guilty of doing it. That is why smart opponents simply duck and trip guard. A lot of d2's beat both ia ji1 and ia ji2. It just comes down to a read I think.

I do disagree with ex chakram having a gap only because it leaves both people at 0. After that it comes down to another read where both people are neutral. Normal chackram is extremely punishable too.

Shaolin doesn't have any special moves or down pokes that are plus. His 7f standing 2 is a high. He doesn't have an armored launcher.

His strengths are his distance and his safety. His far reaching normals are slow enough that they should be useless up close against people that know the matchup. His specials are good but none of them are op. No one can call shaolin cheap. He's just good.

Edit: Forgot about ex arrow being +7 but there's nothing guaranteed after so I don't think that's op either.
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What about the recovery on chakrams? Doesn't it seem excessive given the much lower recovery of other projectiles in the game?
 
JesterSMX

JesterSMX

It's too laggy to poke...
It's excessive compared to quite a few projectiles but you have to think of everything at his disposal and the properties that each one has.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of people that have to play against him and would start a TYM war over any buffs at all.

He technically has four projectiles and his upkick is a great almost full screen anti-air. Low chakram is also a counter zoning tool because of low profiling. I personally use an arrow to buffer the recovery on chakram and you can alternate sending them down screen as fast as you can input them.

His mb chakram is in between being a trap special and a launcher (Because you can follow up on it for a brief period afterwards.) All that considered and the mb low chackram adding to his already crazy safe mixup potential, I wouldn't be too upset if they left it alone.

Tanya has a shorter recovery on her "boomerang" move but thats the only projectile she has and it's a high.

Lui Kang's low fireball has really fast recovery but it can't trap you.

I don't know. Just playing devil's advocate. I would really prefer if he went unnoticed while some other characters got nerfs to looping pressure and op frame advantage. If you block right you should be rewarded or at least have a realistic way out of a follow up.
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
JesterSMX said:
It's excessive compared to quite a few projectiles but you have to think of everything at his disposal and the properties that each one has.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of people that have to play against him and would start a TYM war over any buffs at all.

He technically has four projectiles and his upkick is a great almost full screen anti-air. Low chakram is also a counter zoning tool because of low profiling. I personally use an arrow to buffer the recovery on chakram and you can alternate sending them down screen as fast as you can input them.

His mb chakram is in between being a trap special and a launcher (Because you can follow up on it for a brief period afterwards.) All that considered and the mb low chackram adding to his already crazy safe mixup potential, I wouldn't be too upset if they left it alone.

Tanya has a shorter recovery on her "boomerang" move but thats the only projectile she has and it's a high.

Lui Kang's low fireball has really fast recovery but it can't trap you.

I don't know. Just playing devil's advocate. I would really prefer if he went unnoticed while some other characters got nerfs to looping pressure and op frame advantage. If you block right you should be rewarded or at least have a realistic way out of a follow up.
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I am a slave to reason, and you have made some reasonable arguments there.

I still don't think a slight recovery reduction on his chakrams would be an unfair change, but you are right that he has other full screen tools.
 
HuttonMD

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
I'm not at home to check the frames in game. But I have some questions about the drop after upkick and the upkick itself

Can you get different frame advantage off of when and how high you drop from?

On a blocked up kick with no drop is there anything guaranteed or is it just getting ppl to respect it just in case you drop instead?
 
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TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
What do you guys use to punish Laos teleport on reaction? I'm not punishing it as cleanly or consistently as I want to. I've recently seen that u1 might be a pretty consistent punish for the teleport, but haven't tried it enough
 
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