KTF Ep. 6 (I Don't Care) - Podcast Ft. LotF, King Hippo, Coolwhip, Saucy & Home Lee

[coolwhip]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/tyms-igau-november-tier-list.39125/
Remember when Duck Nation made that aggregate tier list? Remember how people freaked out because their match up charts made no sense? Everyone (who didnt play green arrow) said he was top 10, whilr making him lose in their own match up charts. We have been blowing that hypocritical perspective of the character since the game came out. Cue Coolwhip completely ignoring facts. @Jimmypotato @Red Reaper @7L @SimSim and whoever was part of the GA community can attest to this. Now I like how you get all nitpicky, but yeah the idiocy ended around november-december 2013. I guess I should've given you specific dates since you can't figure it out by yourself.
Maybe you're right, I shouldn't summarize what you guys are saying using mediocre, so instead I'll quote your entire post so there's no confusion about it.

Pretty sure Tyler fits the description since a) he refuses to use another character, b) has lost every single time to bad match ups and c) they have made podcasts about he won't shut up about it. If you should learn anything about his case is that TYM online people like yourself like putting words in people's mouths. And I ask you again, where's these legion of tournament players that keep blaming their failures to their characters.

But, and I'm really not being nitpicky, November 2013 and April 2014 is a big difference, and not just in pure time span. But think of it this way: November 2013 was only one month after the patch, so many things in the game were still not as "set in stone" (if that's the right term) as they are now. Things hadn't played out as much. So, while I do think it's silly that GA was ever considered top, even when Chris G was dominating (that was the era of Sups and BA, which is even worse lol), that narrative died pretty much in 2014. Now some thought or still think he is better than given credit for. I personally don't have much of an opinion on this. I guess they're basing their thoughts on the fact that Chris G does well with him and a guy who's been adamant he barely plays the game did well with him recently. I'm honestly just theorizing here. Again, I just don't think the narrative that Arrow is top has been relevant, or prevalent, in a LONG time

 

[coolwhip]

@AK L0rdoftheFLY @KingHippo @coolwhip @GGA Saucy Jack

My episode has rustled more jimmies than all of yours. Hold dat

And to think that none of the Jimmy Rustling has anything to do with AK vs So Cal.

The funniest bit, and I'm revealing some behind the scene secrets here is that you're not the first person we should blame. We should also blame me, for suggesting that topic to begin with and more importantly, @Qwark28 who originally put the idea forward a couple of weeks ago in one of the KTF threads. You've done well, my Mediterranean fellow.

 

[coolwhip]

I'm also kind of offended this is considered "drama." This is an insult to true TYM drama that I've been a part of over the past couple of years.

 

[Juggs]

Let me preface by saying I do think the shitters are actually shitters, but the idea is, how shitty are they? Like how do we know just how much they can compete? Well, the usual argument revolves around, "the best representatives of these characters are struggling." Now, there is validity to that. But I would counter by saying, our scene is so small, that the best representatives for these characters are not necessarily the best POSSIBLE representatives for these characters.

A character being "good" or "bad" is dependant on their tools and match-ups. Player skill or player error should not be taken into consideration at all. Meaning, their tier placement and MU numbers should be based on them being used as perfectly as possible. A bad character is bad regardless of who is using them. No matter how bad a character is, and no matter how bad a match-up is, a great player can still win regardless. Can still win, not will still win.

 

[Qwark28]

Now who should TYM believe more, this is an excellent question for everyone involved. Do we believe you? Or the guy who beat the guy that got 9th at EVO in a terrible MU and placed?

The guy who was fully willing to spend 2k euros when living in a third world shithole called Greece exactly because he knew playing Joker would give him a free pass to top 8 because I can count the people who know the Joker MU in 2 mangled hands. And the fault lies in noone making waves with the character over there while that random guy in Greece figures out obscure setups where 80% of your life is gone if you don't know one little gimmick about which side you should've blocked while in X/Y stance and depending on where you're at on-screen.

Im judging it based on both offline and online competition. Offline is 10 times easier to win. What do you mean by 'ideal conditions', against the only joker that has placed high in majors offline, or online with some dude in Greece that still connects to the internet using AOL discs?

Skipping the cheeky insult (m8), my offline scene is filled with people who have previously travelled and beat evo champions in CVS2/SC4 and used to be pretty known back in the early days of fighting games. It also includes people who travelled every year for multiple games to multiple. I can tell the difference between online and offline.

There's also something called proper discussion and it seems you're alergic to it unless sprinkled with a touch of insult.

 

[Cossner]

I personally don't have much I just don't think the narrative that Arrow is top has been relevant, or prevalent, in a LONG time

I agree. But then why did you say it didn't happen? I'm sorry I thought I was the one supposed to contradict myself whoopsie daisy!

But to return to the original question:

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT?

 

[Mr Aquaman]

The guy who was fully willing to spend 2k euros when living in a third world shithole called Greece exactly because he knew playing Joker would give him a free pass to top 8 because I can count the people who know the Joker MU in 2 mangled hands. And the fault lies in noone making waves with the character over there while that random guy in Greece figures out obscure setups where 80% of your life is gone if you don't know one little gimmick about which side you should've blocked while in X/Y stance and depending on where you're at on-screen.

Ares got those =OO

 

[coolwhip]

A character being "good" or "bad" is dependant on their tools and match-ups. Player skill or player error should not be taken into consideration at all. Meaning, their tier placement and MU numbers should be based on them being used as perfectly as possible. A bad character is bad regardless of who is using them. No matter how bad a character is, and no matter how bad a match-up is, a great player can still win regardless. Can still win, not will still win.

Thanks captain obvious

Which was mentioned on the podcast and referred to in my post when I state "I agree these characters are shitty, but we may not know how shitty are they as in, how much they can compete." So for example, Cyborg might be bottom 5, but perhaps in the right hands he'd do better in tournament. The whole talking point includes the correlation between character shittiness and player results, hence the talk about excuse making.

 

[Cossner]

The guy who was fully willing to spend 2k euros when living in a third world shithole called Greece exactly because he knew playing Joker would give him a free pass to top 8 because I can count the people who know the Joker MU in 2 mangled hands. And the fault lies in noone making waves with the character over there while that random guy in Greece figures out obscure setups where 80% of your life is gone if you don't know one little gimmick about which side you should've blocked while in X/Y stance and depending on where you're at on-screen.

I really wish you come to Evo and I'm in yor bracket.

But in the meantime let's just take your word for it I guess! (Btw, GA has 113% setups in the corner).

Skipping the cheeky insult (m8), my offline scene is filled with people who have previously travelled and beat evo champions in CVS2/SC4 and used to be pretty known back in the early days of fighting games. It also includes people who travelled every year for multiple games to multiple. I can tell the difference between online and offline.

There's also something called proper discussion and it seems you're alergic to it unless sprinkled with a touch of insult.

Oh man, they beat people in other games? That must've given superpowers to your Joker!
It's funny that you say 'proper discussion' while rearing your head to give your irrelevant opinion in every sort of discussion I'm involved in. I feel flattered. And the AOL disc thing is true, I've played against you.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

Thanks captain obvious

Which was mentioned on the podcast and referred to in my post when I state "I agree these characters are shitty, but we may not know how shitty are they as in, how much they can compete." So for example, Cyborg might be bottom 5, but perhaps in the right hands he'd do better in tournament. The whole talking point includes the correlation between character shittiness and player results, hence the talk about excuse making.

Cyborg got top 32 at both evo's Kappa
Cyborg has been pretty much tapped out in tech and he requires the same thing most of the bottom 5 needs, luck in pools, and the corner. Little bit of zoning depending on the MU. To say that he is a better character if sonic fox beats some dudes I find irrelevant. As pig said, skill will prevail.

 

[Qwark28]

I really wish you come to Evo and I'm in yor bracket.

But in the meantime let's just take your word for it I guess! (Btw, GA has 113% setups in the corner).

Really? Guaranteed ones out of a combo started without 1 bar? That's pretty cool

Oh man, they beat people in other games? That must've given superpowers to your Joker!
It's funny that you say 'proper discussion' while rearing your head to give your irrelevant opinion in every sort of discussion I'm involved in. I feel flattered.

No, since you didn't seem to understand, the point made was that people travel to offline tournaments and scenes usually function in an offline setting. Therefore there is a lot of exposure to an offline enviroment where the subject ( Joker ) excels against noteworthy and seasoned competition, good enough to deduce information in an ideal enviroment.

This reminds me of that SPSS class I took.

The reason behind that is that you argue with Coolwhip a lot and I just enjoy licking the perimeter of turbans while watching the owner Allahu Ackbar the vicinity.

 

[Juggs]

Thanks captain obvious

Which was mentioned on the podcast and referred to in my post when I state "I agree these characters are shitty, but we may not know how shitty are they as in, how much they can compete." So for example, Cyborg might be bottom 5, but perhaps in the right hands he'd do better in tournament. The whole talking point includes the correlation between character shittiness and player results, hence the talk about excuse making.

I guess that's what I get for trying to help by reiterating the point. My bad.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Green Arrow is not the best character on that list. Maybe if people stopped mashing after getting hit by something that amazingly has 'hit advantage' they would know that the character is terrible. Killer Frost tier

 

[Cossner]

Really? Guaranteed ones out of a combo started without 1 bar? That's pretty cool

He doesn't need bars to start it. Guaranteed out of a combo and unclashable.

No, since you didn't seem to understand, the point made was that people travel to offline tournaments and scenes usually function in an offline setting. Therefore there is a lot of exposure to an offline enviroment where the subject ( Joker ) excels against noteworthy and seasoned competition, good enough to deduce information in an ideal enviroment.

This reminds me of that SPSS class I took.

The reason behind that is that you argue with Coolwhip a lot and I just enjoy licking the perimeter of turbans while watching the owner Allahu Ackbar the vicinity.

Yes, but how is playing against some dude who beat whoever evo person in another game makes the match up favorable for Joker? I beat Balrog doing nothing but mace charge does that mean I gained his powers? Joking aside, with what GA have you grinded the match up offline?

 

[SneakyTortoise]

You're literally saying whoever mains a low tier is doing it to option select on their losses. Not because they like the character. Not because they have spent the time grinding the match ups with that specific character. Nop, just to make excuses. So yes, you're basically saying that if you don't like being called either a downplayer or that you use it as a crutch, you shouldn't compete with that character (the character you like and know).

NO I AM NOT AT ALL! This seems to be your problem, you misinterpret everything and want to take everything as a personal attack, let me make my point as clear as possible.

There is nothing wrong with people who play lower tier characters. The Grrs and Digits of the community who just play the character they have fun with and kick ass at tournament without posting all the time about how shit the character is are great.

The problem is those that play a low tier character and feel the need to remind everyone all the time that that character is low tier. They are obviously doing that for a reason.

 

[Juggs]

The problem is those that play a low tier character and feel the need to remind everyone all the time that that character is low tier. They are obviously doing that for a reason.

I think the argument here, or rather the question is, what tournament player who lost with a "bad" character is constantly reminding everyone all the time that their character is low tier? I may be wrong though, that just seems to me what this is about. And to be clear, I personally am not saying someone did/does or didn't/doesn't do this, I really wouldn't know tbh, just reiterating the question.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

NO I AM NOT AT ALL! This seems to be your problem, you misinterpret everything and want to take everything as a personal attack, let me make my point as clear as possible.

There is nothing wrong with people who play lower tier characters. The Grrs and Digits of the community who just play the character they have fun with and kick ass at tournament without posting all the time about how shit the character is are great.

The problem is those that play a low tier character and feel the need to remind everyone all the time that that character is low tier. They are obviously doing that for a reason.

There has literally been nothing but upplay of these characters in this thread lol

 

[Cossner]

The problem is those that play a low tier character and feel the need to remind everyone all the time that that character is low tier. They are obviously doing that for a reason.

ok who?

I think the argument here, or rather the question is, what tournament player who lost with a "bad" character is constantly reminding everyone all the time that their character is low tier? I may be wrong though, that just seems to me what this is about.

Ive been asking that for a while now.

 

[Qwark28]

He doesn't need bars to start it. Guaranteed out of a combo and unclashable.

Yes, but how is playing against some dude who beat whoever evo person in another game makes the match up favorable for Joker? I beat Balrog doing nothing but mace charge does that mean I gained his powers? Joking aside, with what GA have you grinded the match up offline?

I never said it makes the matchup favorable, I used to believe long ago that the matchup was 7-3 arrow because at one time it was. Then the patch came and Joker got buffs and I found new setups which made it quite easier. It's 5-5 to 6-4 arrow, nowhere near 7-3 territory. You wouldn't know who I play, nor would it make a difference in the argument since you're so determined on your side. Any point you can make I've already thought of, I spent some time playing and analysing this matchup and have had the advantage of playing Joker since the beginning and seeing it evolve throughout the patches.

When you play veterans of multiple FGs who started playing since the first of them you tend to pick up on a lot of knowledge that would normally take you months/years to figure out yourself. I'm blessed to have a multi"cultural", fighting game wise, scene who helped me develop into a much better player than I used to be over the years. I'm sure you can understand that given your recent socialisation into yours.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

ok who?

For a start, Tom Brady would be the prime example. To this day he still talks about how he mained Sub-zero for years despite him being trash. I'm not saying he picked sub for this crutch, he obviously loves the character, but he STILL loves to remind people about how sub wasn't good and asks for props for winning tournaments with him.

For a while the nightwing community believed he was low tier and were constantly talking about how shit he was and that's why nightwing's weren't playing. I know that they now agree he's upper-mid but when they thought he was low they all used to say how shit he was all the time.

It's not about naming names, I don't talk to any of these character representatives so don't know how they talk about their characters and people they talk to are a better judge than that, all I'm saying is that if someone does main a low tier character and feels the need to remind everyone that that character is low tier, they are doing that for a reason yeah? If you don't do that then great, don't get offended and move on.

 

[Big Pampering]

To make things clear, I am not really saying you shouldn't compete if you play a shitter. But you have yourself to blame if you don't get the results you would otherwise get with a better character. And it is respectable if you want to be a character loyalist rather than winning with a character you don't enjoy playing. If your character happens to be a shitter and you decide to main that character, then you should accept the fact that you might not do that well as you would have hoped. 16 bit plays a mid tier character and is probably a top 5 player in injustice . But he could very well barely be making top 8 because of his character.

 

[Cossner]

I never said it makes the matchup favorable, I used to believe long ago that the matchup was 7-3 arrow because at one time it was. Then the patch came and Joker got buffs and I found new setups which made it quite easier. It's 5-5 to 6-4 arrow, nowhere near 7-3 territory. You wouldn't know who I play, nor would it make a difference in the argument since you're so determined on your side. Any point you can make I've already thought of, I spent some time playing and analysing this matchup and have had the advantage of playing Joker since the beginning and seeing it evolve throughout the patches.

When you play veterans of multiple FGs who started playing since the first of them you tend to pick up on a lot of knowledge that would normally take you months/years to figure out yourself. I'm blessed to have a multi"cultural", fighting game wise, scene who helped me develop into a much better player than I used to be over the years. I'm sure you can understand that given your recent socialisation into yours.

It definitely would. I don't know his playstyle. Is he good or does he do ChrisG combos? Also what are setups good for if you can't even do them?

Anyway, "I guess we'll just take your word for it".

For a start, Tom Brady would be the prime example. To this day he still talks about how he mained Sub-zero for years despite him being trash. I'm not saying he picked sub for this crutch, he obviously loves the character, but he STILL loves to remind people about how sub wasn't good and asks for props for winning tournaments with him.

For a while the nightwing community believed he was low tier and were constantly talking about how shit he was and that's why nightwing's weren't playing. I know that they now agree he's upper-mid but when they thought he was low they all used to say how shit he was all the time.

It's not about naming names, I don't talk to any of these character representatives so don't know how they talk about their characters and people they talk to are a better judge than that, all I'm saying is that if someone does main a low tier character and feels the need to remind everyone that that character is low tier, they are doing that for a reason yeah? If you don't do that then great, don't get offended and move on.

So you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, this is all about shitting on Tom.

Btw Subzero is NOT a low tier character.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

So you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, this is all about shitting on Tom.

Btw Subzero is NOT a low tier character.

No I am not at all, I am actually a fan of Tom's and hopes he does well in MKX.
Once again you've missed the point so I'm done with this now.

 

[Qwark28]

It definitely would. I don't know his playstyle. Is he good or does he do ChrisG combos? Also what are setups good for if you can't even do them?

Anyway, "I guess we'll just take your word for it".

So you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, this is all about shitting on Tom.

Btw Subzero is NOT a low tier character.

He's not good, he knows the basics and that is it,

I have thoroughly analysed this matchup since I saw just how annoying a constant stream of arrows was. In the end, that's the only reason arrow is able to get shit started, if the Joker gets impatient.

I don't know what's the common opinion on Joker's setups but there's only 1 thing that's too execution heavy to get consistently and that's merely to get ~75% of wallcarry instead of the usual ~70%. I could also argue that online is bad for Joker because his combos and setups are the hardest to do, even offline, otherwise enjoy getting a couple less knockdown frames and having people blow through your shit.

 

[TakeAChance]

For a start, Tom Brady would be the prime example. To this day he still talks about how he mained Sub-zero for years despite him being trash. I'm not saying he picked sub for this crutch, he obviously loves the character, but he STILL loves to remind people about how sub wasn't good and asks for props for winning tournaments with him.

For a while the nightwing community believed he was low tier and were constantly talking about how shit he was and that's why nightwing's weren't playing. I know that they now agree he's upper-mid but when they thought he was low they all used to say how shit he was all the time.

It's not about naming names, I don't talk to any of these character representatives so don't know how they talk about their characters and people they talk to are a better judge than that, all I'm saying is that if someone does main a low tier character and feels the need to remind everyone that that character is low tier, they are doing that for a reason yeah? If you don't do that then great, don't get offended and move on.

This is so Bullshit.

The Nightwing community NEVER said he was low. Go back and find one post of a Nightwing player saying Nightwing was low tier. It didn't happen.

People started jumping on the "Let's troll Nighwing players" bandwagon and started putting words in everyone's mouths. Sajam, myself, Fly, and others have all been adamant for a LONG time that he was an upper mid character. Hell, I even said he was top 10 before DLC.

In one thread a while back I literally posted someone blowing up the nightwing community for downplaying, then five posts down another person blowed the Nightwing community up for Upplaying.

Which one is it? The fact of the matter is, I don't think any of you trolling assholes (Not you directly lol) know.