KTF Ep. 6 (I Don't Care) - Podcast Ft. LotF, King Hippo, Coolwhip, Saucy & Home Lee

[Eldriken]

There needs to be a new TYM podcast. One that contains people arguing through their mics instead of through text.

It would progress 10x faster and probably be 100x funnier.

Someone get to work, please.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

It didn't go over my head. He said that I said that people shouldn't main low tier characters to compete which is absolute bullshit.

You're asking for them to give direct examples of when people have lost in tournaments and come out with the excuse that it was because of their character.
But them saying that people say they main a low tier character as a crutch doesn't mean that that case^ will have happened.
What they're saying (at least what I am) is that people saying their character is a low tier already implies that they are blaming any loss on that character and are using it as a crutch, without directly coming out and saying that that is why they lost in tournament. There's no other reason to constantly remind people that their character is low tier either wise.

Well they never came out and said, well they PICK the character because of the crutch. That was never implied. What was implied is that because they play said low tier character, that is their excuse when they lose.Even stating it does not matter if we know what we are talking about or not. Again you still need to accept the blow up of them saying exactly what you think they did not.

 

[Clark L.]

Yeah, because Coolwhip, who read the GA forums every day and paid close attention to whatever was said about GA should know.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

What was implied is that because they play said low tier character, that is their excuse when they lose. .

No, I think that's where you're wrong. They can correct me if I'm wrong, but from @GGA Saucy Jack's point of view, I didn't hear him say that everyone picking a low tier character is doing it so that they have a crutch, but that the people who constantly talk about their character being low tier are.
He used to main green arrow but didn't constantly post about how he was a shitter. I doubt he'd think Chris G plays arrow so that he can blame his loss on the character. He was saying he had an issue with the people who talk about their character being low tier.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

some big ass picture

I thought you weren't relevant until Summer Jam? Or I think by there standards you still aren't? I can't tell anymore.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

No, I think that's where you're wrong. They can correct me if I'm wrong, but from @GGA Saucy Jack's point of view, I didn't hear him say that everyone picking a low tier character is doing it so that they have a crutch, but that the people who constantly talk about their character being low tier are.
He used to main green arrow but didn't constantly post about how he was a shitter. I doubt he'd think Chris G plays arrow so that he can blame his loss on the character. He was saying he had an issue with the people who talk about their character being low tier.

"they want to cry when they lose to a high tier, they want to cry when their character is a low tier"

"I dont understand why everyone, the go to excuse, I mean my character is low tier"

"people use it as a crutch weather they are right or not"

"it doesnt actually matter if joker is low tier, or mid, or low mid, or high, non of that actually matters, because the public perception is that he is low tier, therefore the joker players have a crutch when they get their backs blown out"

again look at all of my arguments from the beginning, this was generalized to everyone who mains low tier, and I know almost everyone who competes with them, and its simply not the case. You only know whats on TYM. And all we do is troll.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

And I want to give @GGA Saucy Jack props here it actually does have a lot to do with public perception. But I don't feel that should fall on the players. Maybe your casuals, online warriors, and tym only posters.

 

[coolwhip]

Yeah, because Coolwhip, who read the GA forums every day and paid close attention to whatever was said about GA should know. I mean, even with evidence, you say it didn't happen. Even though I was there the entire time and saw how the entire GA community was called a bunch of downplayers, you say it didn't happen. Unbelievable, how naive can you be? Also shout outs to actually reading it, JimmyPotato wasn't even in the quotes "I rest my case".

TYM, a place where people say water and h2o are two completely different things. Yeah guys, saying these excuse-makers that propfish and cant take a loss wouldn't do good even if they picked a good character is NOT the same as calling them mediocre. Pls Coaster. Anyway, I have YET to hear who are these people with a career of bad results blaming the character.

GA 7-3s him.

Oh boy here we go:

You said and I quote, "EVERYONE called Green Arrow S+++++ tier for a full YEAR."

Now, the parts I'm concerned with is "everyone," "S++++++ tier" and "year."

The "evidence" you posted is not evidence of shit because none of it backs up that claim. Now, I fully understand you're being hyperbolic and you don't literally mean "everyone," nor "S+++++ tier," but it's safe to assume you meant "the general consensus" and "top tier" otherwise, again, words would have no meaning.

Now please show me how a few people on the GA forums and an idiot like P2W who thinks every character is broken but the one he mains constitute the general consensus. Like you mean to tell me that if you were to find me tier lists from say, February or March 2014, they'd have Green Arrow as a top tier character? I'll wait as you do your research and prove this. Show me tier lists (again, multiple ones, as in, consensus) from that time and where they had GA on the list.

As far as the part as calling them mediocre, I don't get if you genuinely get so emotional when you argue that you fail to see basic points or you're so used to playing the victim card that it blinds you, but here is the point for the 28686th time:

Yes, when we say "there are people who do poorly with a shitter and complain who wouldn't do well with a top tier character," we ARE calling them mediocre. Who disputed that?

Except, there's a difference between those who never come close to achieving good results and blame their characters, and those who are always on the cusp of top 8, in top 16 or whatever, and are only hindered because their character has bad match-ups that are difficult to overcome at a high level. How could you possibly not understand such a simple point? So you tagging Rev0lver is quite silly and kinda desperate, since he's obviously not someone who fits the description. He's someone who by and large, is doing well with his character but runs into a borderline unwinnable match-up time and time again. In fact, Jack explicitly mentioned and I'm paraphrasing here "I understand you can't outplay everyone and some match-ups are too difficult" which obviously means that sometimes, this IS an excuse. But when you're failing time and time again (not "you" per se, to be clear) and never being close to making top 8's, yet blame it on the character, it's probably not mainly the character's fault.

So I seriously ask, how could you possibly disagree with any of the above? It's like a bunch of guys heard selective arguments that were mentioned, ignored other arguments, felt targeted for some reason, and blew this up.

Cue Cossner ignoring every single thing above, putting words in my mouth, making up his own arguments, then contradicting himself...

 

[SneakyTortoise]

1."they want to cry when they lose to a high tier, they want to cry when their character is a low tier"

2."I dont understand why everyone, the go to excuse, I mean my character is low tier"

3."people use it as a crutch weather they are right or not"

4."it doesnt actually matter if joker is low tier, or mid, or low mid, or high, non of that actually matters, because the public perception is that he is low tier, therefore the joker players have a crutch when they get their backs blown out"

again look at all of my arguments from the beginning, this was generalized to everyone who mains low tier, and I know almost everyone who competes with them, and its simply not the case. You only know whats on TYM. And all we do is troll.

1. Yeah this applies to every competitor, people do tend to find something to complain about no matter what tier they lose to, this is apparent when competitors get on commentary after a loss or jump straight on twitter.
2 & 3. Again, what is the point in people talking about how their character is low tier or about how many match ups their character loses unless they're using it as a crutch?
4. What is your problem with this? It's quite true. That doesn't mean they're saying every joker main picked joker for that reason.

I get what you're saying about tournament players not coming out and saying that they lost because of their character, like Grr, but I've also never seen Grr talk constantly about how bad Joker is. No one has an issue with people picking a low tier character as their main, just that those that want to remind everyone that their character is low tier are obviously doing so for a reason.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

I still think GA is S+ tier, yall don't know

 

[coolwhip]

"it doesnt actually matter if joker is low tier, or mid, or low mid, or high, non of that actually matters, because the public perception is that he is low tier, therefore the joker players have a crutch when they get their backs blown out"

I don't see why you would disagree with that though. The public perception is that Joker is low tier (which Joker players seem to disagree with by the way, so go figure), and as a result, if someone who's not good at all mained the Joker and had piss poor results, he has a get out of jail free card by claiming "I main the Joker."

 

[Cossner]

exactlywhy i wasnt sure if you were srs

It is 7-3 in GAs favor. You should know this by now.

What the hell? When did I even say anything remotely like that? You really are just making things up

You're literally saying whoever mains a low tier is doing it to option select on their losses. Not because they like the character. Not because they have spent the time grinding the match ups with that specific character. Nop, just to make excuses. So yes, you're basically saying that if you don't like being called either a downplayer or that you use it as a crutch, you shouldn't compete with that character (the character you like and know).

Yay, @Cossner vs @coolwhip

Keep it on the forums and not in PM's plz. I've been waiting on this bout for ages now.

We're arguing about the points they're making. Have you noticed how you always show up where there's a hint of drama? Realtalk who are you? Are you a hidey of someone or just an annoying random?

I don't see why you would disagree with that though. The public perception is that Joker is low tier (which Joker players seem to disagree with by the way, so go figure), and as a result, if someone who's not good at all mained the Joker and had piss poor results, he has a get out of jail free card by claiming "I main the Joker."

But no one (of relevance) has done that.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

1. Yeah this applies to every competitor, people do tend to find something to complain about no matter what tier they lose to, this is apparent when competitors get on commentary after a loss or jump straight on twitter.
2 & 3. Again, what is the point in people talking about how their character is low tier or about how many match ups their character loses unless they're using it as a crutch?
4. What is your problem with this? It's quite true. That doesn't mean they're saying every joker main picked joker for that reason.

I get what you're saying about tournament players not coming out and saying that they lost because of their character, like Grr, but I've also never seen Grr talk constantly about how bad Joker is. No one has an issue with people picking a low tier character as their main, just that those that want to remind everyone that their character is low tier are obviously doing so for a reason.

Everyone complains about there character equally, low tier or not

Don't generalize that we do it just so we don't look as bad. That's your perception.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

I don't see why you would disagree with that though. The public perception is that Joker is low tier (which Joker players seem to disagree with by the way, so go figure), and as a result, if someone who's not good at all mained the Joker and had piss poor results, he has a get out of jail free card by claiming "I main the Joker."

Because its not on the player that that exists, sounds like the problem is you guys lol

 

[coolwhip]

And finally, here is my true jimmy rustling post:

There were two main arguments on the podcast: one, offered by Jack, is that many use the low tier character excuse to justify their shortcomings and have a go-to excuse if they lose (which has been debated to death in this thread already), and the other one, which I want to tackle, and it's that the scene isn't big enough so many of these characters are underepresented.

Now, I'm sure this will piss people off but I'll go ahead and say it anyway:

Let me preface by saying I do think the shitters are actually shitters, but the idea is, how shitty are they? Like how do we know just how much they can compete? Well, the usual argument revolves around, "the best representatives of these characters are struggling." Now, there is validity to that. But I would counter by saying, our scene is so small, that the best representatives for these characters are not necessarily the best POSSIBLE representatives for these characters.

As in, there are only so many competitive players, and only so many top level players. In a bigger scene, there are more top level players, and thus, through sheer math, it's more likely we'd see at least some of them maining shitters, and thus, almost inevtiably, have more shitter representation in top 8's, at least occasionally.

This is not a dig at anyone manining shitters, and no, I don't think I would do better myself. But excuse me for thinking if Chris G took this game seriously, we'd be seeing Green Arrow almost as frequently as we see, say, Catwoman in top 8's.

Speaking of which, and I agree Catwoman isn't low tier, but it's pretty obvious that had she not been picked up by one of the scene's best players who had the patience and dedication to be good with her, as well as the offline scene to grind out her match-ups, she'd be looked at as a complete shitter, in line with these other characters, simply because she's underepresented.

If say, Sonic Fox legit mained Ares, I think he'd be making top 8's semi-regularly. That's really not a knock on Mr. Aquaman -- he is the best with that character. But the fact is the scene is small, and there are only a select few super top players, many of which happen to main top tiers. If our scene was as big as Capcom, we'd potentially have someone close to Sonic Fox's level maining say, Joker, and doing well with the character.

It's pretty simple logic really, and again, I don't see how it's debatable. It's really not necessarily anyone's fault. It does take a lot for someone to do well with non top tier characters. You need a player with sufficient skill, an offline scene, great training partners, etc... That's not available to everyone, the scene is too small, and online sucks.

I'm really not singling him out for the purposes of a blow-up but how do we know that Grrr, who started maining Joker in 2014, is the best possible representative with that character, that his opinions on his match-ups are spot on, and nobody would do much better? To be clear, this is just a random example as I've never heard anything from Grrr and he seems like a super nice guy. I'm just highlighting a point.

 

[Qwark28]

It is 7-3 in GAs favor. You should know this by now.

You're literally saying whoever mains a low tier is doing it to option select on their losses. Not because they like the character. Not because they have spent the time grinding the match ups with that specific character. Nop, just to make excuses. So yes, you're basically saying that if you don't like being called either a downplayer or that you use it as a crutch, you shouldn't compete with that character (the character you like and know).

We're arguing about the points they're making. Have you noticed how you always show up where there's a hint of drama? Realtalk who are you? Are you a hidey of someone or just an annoying random?

But no one (of relevance) has done that.

I'm not going to discuss the matchup when the only person you've played is a good player who doesn't have as much knowledge of Joker as the rest of the Joker community does.

Just because you like to judge matchups in less than ideal conditions and opponents does not make it so. Maybe it's too much to expect a few month old Joker to know matchups or setups or every nook and cranny when it comes to matchups.

 

[coolwhip]

Because its not on the player that that exists, sounds like the problem is you guys lol

What do you mean? Wait, if a player who's not good enough is making excuses pertaining to his character, how is that not on him? The problem is you seem to be implying that no one is doing this, unless I'm misinterpreting you.

 

[coolwhip]

But no one (of relevance) has done that.

I can get behind this, but, P2W aside (does he really count?), is there a person of relevance who was claiming Arrow is top tier in 2014?

 

[Phosferrax]

We're arguing about the points they're making. Have you noticed how you always show up where there's a hint of drama? Realtalk who are you? Are you a hidey of someone or just an annoying random?

I'm rooting for Coolwhip.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

What do you mean? Wait, if a player who's not good enough is making excuses pertaining to his character, how is that not on him? The problem is you seem to be implying that no one is doing this, unless I'm misinterpreting you.

I am giving you examples of plenty of guys that don't, and they seem to fall into your category. A bulk of them are the ones competing.

You are roping everyone together.

 

[Qwark28]

I'm rooting for Coolwhip.

Who isn't.

 

[HomeLee1121]

@AK L0rdoftheFLY @KingHippo @coolwhip @GGA Saucy Jack

My episode has rustled more jimmies than all of yours. Hold dat

 

[Cossner]

Oh boy here we go:

You said and I quote, "EVERYONE called Green Arrow S+++++ tier for a full YEAR."

Now, the parts I'm concerned with is "everyone," "S++++++ tier" and "year."

The "evidence" you posted is not evidence of shit because none of it backs up that claim. Now, I fully understand you're being hyperbolic and you don't literally mean "everyone," nor "S+++++ tier," but it's safe to assume you meant "the general consensus" and "top tier" otherwise, again, words would have no meaning.

Now please show me how a few people on the GA forums and an idiot like P2W who thinks every character is broken but the one he mains constitute the general consensus. Like you mean to tell me that if you were to find me tier lists from say, February or March 2014, they'd have Green Arrow as a top tier character? I'll wait as you do your research and prove this. Show me tier lists (again, multiple ones, as in, consensus) from that time and where they had GA on the list.

As far as the part as calling them mediocre, I don't get if you genuinely get so emotional when you argue that you fail to see basic points or you're so used to playing the victim card that it blinds you, but here is the point for the 28686th time:

Yes, when we say "there are people who do poorly with a shitter and complain who wouldn't do well with a top tier character," we ARE calling them mediocre. Who disputed that?

Except, there's a difference between those who never come close to achieving good results and blame their characters, and those who are always on the cusp of top 8, in top 16 or whatever, and are only hindered because their character has bad match-ups that are difficult to overcome at a high level. How could you possibly not understand such a simple point? So you tagging Rev0lver is quite silly and kinda desperate, since he's obviously not someone who fits the description. He's someone who by and large, is doing well with his character but runs into a borderline unwinnable match-up time and time again. In fact, Jack explicitly mentioned and I'm paraphrasing here "I understand you can't outplay everyone and some match-ups are too difficult" which obviously means that sometimes, this IS an excuse. But when you're failing time and time again (not "you" per se, to be clear) and never being close to making top 8's, yet blame it on the character, it's probably not mainly the character's fault.

So I seriously ask, how could you possibly disagree with any of the above? It's like a bunch of guys heard selective arguments that were mentioned, ignored other arguments, felt targeted for some reason, and blew this up.

Cue Cossner ignoring every single thing above, putting words in my mouth, making up his own arguments, then contradicting himself...

http://testyourmight.com/threads/tyms-igau-november-tier-list.39125/
Remember when Duck Nation made that aggregate tier list? Remember how people freaked out because their match up charts made no sense? Everyone (who didnt play green arrow) said he was top 10, whilr making him lose in their own match up charts. We have been blowing that hypocritical perspective of the character since the game came out. Cue Coolwhip completely ignoring facts. @Jimmypotato @Red Reaper @7L @SimSim and whoever was part of the GA community can attest to this. Now I like how you get all nitpicky, but yeah the idiocy ended around november-december 2013. I guess I should've given you specific dates since you can't figure it out by yourself.
Maybe you're right, I shouldn't summarize what you guys are saying using mediocre, so instead I'll quote your entire post so there's no confusion about it.

Pretty sure Tyler fits the description since a) he refuses to use another character, b) has lost every single time to bad match ups and c) they have made podcasts about he won't shut up about it. If you should learn anything about his case is that TYM online people like yourself like putting words in people's mouths. And I ask you again, where's these legion of tournament players that keep blaming their failures to their characters.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

I'm not going to discuss the matchup when the only person you've played is a good player who doesn't have as much knowledge of Joker as the rest of the Joker community does.

Just because you like to judge matchups in less than ideal conditions and opponents does not make it so. Maybe it's too much to expect a few month old Joker to know matchups or setups or every nook and cranny when it comes to matchups.

Now who should TYM believe more, this is an excellent question for everyone involved. Do we believe you? Or the guy who beat the guy that got 9th at EVO in a terrible MU and placed?

 

[Cossner]

I'm not going to discuss the matchup when the only person you've played is a good player who doesn't have as much knowledge of Joker as the rest of the Joker community does.

Just because you like to judge matchups in less than ideal conditions and opponents does not make it so. Maybe it's too much to expect a few month old Joker to know matchups or setups or every nook and cranny when it comes to matchups.

Im judging it based on both offline and online competition. Offline is 10 times easier to win. What do you mean by 'ideal conditions', against the only joker that has placed high in majors offline, or online with some dude in Greece that still connects to the internet using AOL discs?