Match-up Discussion Killer Frost In-Depth Analysis for Match-Ups

[M2Dave]

I'm expecting slide to be punishable.

I would do nothing, but because NRS have already started nerfing characters, I would reduce the range by half but keep its safety on block and whiff.

 

[xKhaoTik]

In the Wonder Woman Forums, they mentioned the best way to face Batman would be back dashing. It avoids his J2, and he has no answer as none of his normals reach, or something blah blah....what I want to know is...is backdashing as effective a tactic for Killer Frost? WW doesn't strike me as having a better back dash than our fair maiden...

Not to mention, if backdashing avoids the j2 completely, you can possibly catch them on the way down with a slide. Slide catches falling opponents every now and then, and even if they made the slide -234545 on whiff/block, that's kind of a foolproof way of catching them, no? At the very least it would make Batman think twice before J2 ing all over the place.

Yea I backdash his j2 all the time and slide. I also forward dash and then 111 into frame trap on block or slide on hit. If I'm feeling ballsy, I AA it lol. I trade 90% of the time but there's times when I actually beat it. His j2 is ridiculous. THAT needs a nerf.

 

[Rickyraws]

Yea I backdash his j2 all the time and slide. I also forward dash and then 111 into frame trap on block or slide on hit. If I'm feeling ballsy, I AA it lol. I trade 90% of the time but there's times when I actually beat it. His j2 is ridiculous. THAT needs a nerf.

Continuous exposure to his J2 in repeated match ups that were inevitably common in Ranked matches yielded many a fit of mental anguish. Seeing it so much had actually caused me to ponder it inadvertently, as I sometimes postulate strategies and theories that I could put to work in the lab when I'm not home.(a common occurrence.) The image of Batman J2 ing stays with me, however, and has seeped its way into my subconscious. Yes, I had a dream about his J2.

Like many dreams, it didn't make sense, and I never really get nightmares because what would scare many others is usually cool to me. I'm desensitized to horror, movie or otherwise, but the J2 dream was nothing short of torment. Walked out my house and the sky was a weird color. All of a sudden my landlord was J2ing me all over the place. There was a lion in the dream somewhere, as well as cameo appearances from friends and family members, but rest assured, the image of real life people J2 ing like Batman is one that no human should suffer. It should be noted that I'm an avid lucid dreamer, meaning that I'm part of the human populate that has the tendency to sometimes 'wake up' IN the dream. That's where the concept of 'pinch myself to see if I'm dreaming' originated: You won't feel pain in the dream. As you can imagine, the movie Inception affected me more than most, as it's interestingly accurate. And accuracy was in fully effect as the kicks came my way, pummeling me while I was confused and cryin-.......lamenting...

Batman is the devil, and must be stopped.

 

[That__John__Guy]

I'm down on a nerf for KF b/c it seems to be nerfing what she can do in theory over practice. No offense to those repping her, but so far we've had ECTV, UFGT9, Brooklyn's Battle Circuit 21, the recent ATL Battle n Brew, SoCal's Wednesday Night Fights, GreekDojo, and so on and she hasn't won any of them. Barely top 8 in some of them. One of them had a guy playing her who made it to top 8, got ripped by a Harley Quinn, then switched to Black Adam for the rest of it. I'd love to see KF tearing it up, but she hasn't been, at least not yet. She's not a power character and not a bombing gadget character. At this point she is more of a Skarlet that everyone says is great but doesn't close the deal much. If you are going by results, Black Adam, Deathstroke, and others are way ahead of her on the nerf train. I still believe in KF, but I don't see her crying out for a nerf. No one is posting KF rage quit videos like they are for other characters.

 

[RiBBz22]

This is pretty good, mostly in line with my thoughts.

Aquaman might be 5-5. He has very good options in the post blocked slide guessing game.

Deathstroke is probably only 6-4. Jump 3 is a problem. DS players will get better at this MU eventually.

Agree with Deathstroke althrough m2dave would have you believe it is 8-2 now. Jump back 3 is really good in this MU as it completely out prioritizes slide and a lot of her normals.

 

[RiBBz22]

I'm expecting slide to be punishable.

I don't think it will be. With her design this is her only reliable way to get in with her trash normals (compared to others in the game). It is like making Superman's F23 punishable. Both of her 50-50 options are already negative so I feel like it is up to the community to figure out ways to beat it with their character. I think the most sensible nerf is reducing the slide's range to something more like Green Arrow's distance.

 

[16 Bit]

IMO if her slide became punishable she would drop considerably. She'd start using b+1,u+3 as her low in her mixups and that's fine but the loss of safe slide in footsies would be disasterous. Slide is how she gets by with otherwise poor footsies. Hers arent that great but no one can play the game against her so she is free to work with what she has. Without safe slide she would take big risk just to check back walk, backdash and jump.

 

[RiBBz22]

IMO if her slide became punishable she would drop considerably. She'd start using b+1,u+3 as her low in her mixups and that's fine but the loss of safe slide in footsies would be disasterous. Slide is how she gets by with otherwise poor footsies. Hers arent that great but no one can play the game against her so she is free to work with what she has. Without safe slide she would take big risk just to check back walk, backdash and jump.

Yeah, I had this discussion with m2dave and master D in our room and with a few other people at UFGT and I basically agree with everything you are saying. Slide is cheap as hell, it is a ridiculous move. However, with her current character design and specifically her normals making the slide punishable would destroy her viability in this game.

Here is a snip from the BNB thread I posed a few days ago that I think applies to this discussion:

People honestly don't understand the character from everything that I read on here. Her 50-50 is the most powerful in the game by far and no one can see past these two options and look at her normals in comparison to other fighters in the roster. No hit-confirmable low or overhead strings that lead to damage (yes I understand that b1 slide is safe) and slow or extremely short reaching normals.

I can totally understand the salt by others since these two options are incredible and I am NOT downplaying them as they make her top 3 in the game IMO..........However, my fear is that nerfing one or both of her only two strongest options to get damage will probably end up killing the character in the long run. Another crushing blow would be to reduce the advantage on trait cancel which would effectively nerf both options once you connect the dots. Compared to a lot of other characters the only things to fear are the overhead and slide (albeit a justifiably huge fear), and that is just the hard truth. Blame the character design for being less well-rounded perhaps, but a nerf involving specifically involving the frame data of these two moves will likely damage the character's viability and will lead to us seeing less variety amongst top 8's in tournament.

 

[16 Bit]

Agree with Deathstroke althrough m2dave would have you believe it is 8-2 now. Jump back 3 is really good in this MU as it completely out prioritizes slide and a lot of her normals.

I bodied M2Dave because he played it super safe, he did the same thing everytime a slide was blocked(d+1~spin) and he'd jump back everytime I got slightly outside sweep distance so it was easy to anti-air him with daggers or slide.

Eventually people will realize to beat her part of it is getting over slide and accepting you must block and play the post slide guessing game. I get that it's scary and can often be a guessing game in her favor but you gotta play. Otherwise you'll never win.

KF vs DS metagame is all about his jump 3. She beats jump back by doing slide early. He beats slide by doing jump back early. It's a wash. Whoever makes the read and pulls the trigger first wins. So then she can do daggers to catch him jumping back in the air...but he starts doing jump ins. So she stops doing daggers and she scouts jump ins to AA with d+2. Now we're both scared and we start playing the game. Which is about equal. Except the resets give her an edge. Totally manageable MU.

 

[cirkusfreaksho]

if they nerf slide then i better be getting some instant air daggers lol JK or a mb slide that does what it does now....she doesnt need any nerfs. i figured if they did anything it would be to reduce her overall damage

 

[Rickyraws]

I'm down on a nerf for KF b/c it seems to be nerfing what she can do in theory over practice. No offense to those repping her, but so far we've had ECTV, UFGT9, Brooklyn's Battle Circuit 21, the recent ATL Battle n Brew, SoCal's Wednesday Night Fights, GreekDojo, and so on and she hasn't won any of them. Barely top 8 in some of them. One of them had a guy playing her who made it to top 8, got ripped by a Harley Quinn, then switched to Black Adam for the rest of it. I'd love to see KF tearing it up, but she hasn't been, at least not yet. She's not a power character and not a bombing gadget character. At this point she is more of a Skarlet that everyone says is great but doesn't close the deal much. If you are going by results, Black Adam, Deathstroke, and others are way ahead of her on the nerf train. I still believe in KF, but I don't see her crying out for a nerf. No one is posting KF rage quit videos like they are for other characters.

Valid points, however let Paulo and the NRS crew know of this if you expect it to be taken seriously. We can't just be vocal amongst ourselves, because Kano.

 

[booivi]

How to punish bane's raging charge, anyone?

 

[Rickyraws]

How to punish bane's raging charge, anyone?

Level 1 2 AND 3 can be parried. MB parry and full combo.

Same goes for a traited AND non traited Doomsday shoulder charge. Parry.

 

[Konqrr]

How to punish bane's raging charge, anyone?

If you don't have meter or don't want to spend a bar, you can jump straight up and do an air-backdash at your highest point then slide when you land to get a full combo before he recovers.

Frost can still parry Batgirl's cartwheel to sweep (low attack) lol

 

[Shawi]

I've been playing KF for 4 days now and I can't for the LIFE of me get in on a spamming air eye laser superman. What is this matchup like. I get hit out of an air dash and a slide. Then I try to counter zone with a well timed spike but the block stun on the laser makes it tough especially if mb. Any tips? I thought if I use KF as a secondary to my shazam I'd cover the bad matchups but I'm having second thoughts.

 

[RiBBz22]

I've been playing KF for 4 days now and I can't for the LIFE of me get in on a spamming air eye laser superman. What is this matchup like. I get hit out of an air dash and a slide. Then I try to counter zone with a well timed spike but the block stun on the laser makes it tough especially if mb. Any tips? I thought if I use KF as a secondary to my shazam I'd cover the bad matchups but I'm having second thoughts.

From full screen you can easily jump his air eye lasers so he has no way to hurt you from this position. On the way down, if you think he is going to jump into another one just double dash in and you will be close enough to him to d2 him on the way down into a full combo.

use something like d2 slide u3 22 grab MB j2 1124 into the 50-50

After you make him fear you coming in off the air laser, most of the lasers off the ground will be the normal laser shot that hits high and are more easily spam-able. You can dash and slide under these for a full combo.

I am pretty confident KF wins this MU 6-4.

 

[NeckolasBone]

I noticed today that when grundy tries f1 3~4 you can block f1 3 and b3 Interrupt him for full combo.I think this works with every character as well.Sorry If this was already discussed and I missed It.

 

[Shawi]

From full screen you can easily jump his air eye lasers so he has no way to hurt you from this position. On the way down, if you think he is going to jump into another one just double dash in and you will be close enough to him to d2 him on the way down into a full combo.

Thanks!! I will give this a go and see if it works against instant air lasers.

 

[RiBBz22]

Thanks!! I will give this a go and see if it works against instant air lasers.

If he is doing instant air lasers close to the ground, then just jump and air dash forward to move in.

 

[Rickyraws]

We need more Wonder Woman experience. Besides people sleeping on her, against a good WW, (who people call a 'normalized' Superman, Ironic considering how good WWs are miles ahead good Supermen). I've been bodying every member of this accursed 'C88' gang online, including Forever King, who I'm undefeated against since launch. However one of their members is a WW user who gives me problems. I beat him, don't get me wrong, but when he beats me it's almost a near perfect. This is unacceptable.

Here's what I've deduced, however. Her air control can be managed, by well timed dagger from full screen. However she can knock you down if you keep spamming it and she's got an OTG air attack.

Her d2 KILLS just about any aerial maneuvers you would like to employ. In practice mode it also has a large hitbox, meaning it can hit you during grounded footsies.

When you look at most Wonder Woman character models, you'll usually remember her crouching. This is almost second nature to WW players because aside from avoiding slides, it's for them to d2. Use your F3 but don't abuse it and become predictable: You need all the damage you can get when you get in close.


Her zoning is not so good. However after you show that you're winning the zoning battle, they'll Shield stance and take virtually no chip. If you think this is an opportunity to rush in and mount an offensive since she can no longer fly, and attempt to assail her before she gets a chance to breathe and go back to lasso stance, BEWARE: If you are in the corner against a SS Wonder Woman, and don't have much experience, stop wasting your and your opponent's time and simply turn thine posterior towards WW and proceed to bend over.(Considering allegations of WW's character model having manly features, this is oddly fitting) An experienced SS WW player will not make you leave that corner for the duration of the match. Parry doesn't parry all of her moves, slide is hit or miss (mostly miss) and trying to jump out is futile.

 

[silva_777]

From full screen you can easily jump his air eye lasers so he has no way to hurt you from this position. On the way down, if you think he is going to jump into another one just double dash in and you will be close enough to him to d2 him on the way down into a full combo.

use something like d2 slide u3 22 grab MB j2 1124 into the 50-50

After you make him fear you coming in off the air laser, most of the lasers off the ground will be the normal laser shot that hits high and are more easily spam-able. You can dash and slide under these for a full combo.

I am pretty confident KF wins this MU 6-4.

Do we have match footage that supports this 6-4?

 

[NeckolasBone]

We need more Wonder Woman experience. Besides people sleeping on her, against a good WW, (who people call a 'normalized' Superman, Ironic considering how good WWs are miles ahead good Supermen). I've been bodying every member of this accursed 'C88' gang online, including Forever King, who I'm undefeated against since launch. However one of their members is a WW user who gives me problems. I beat him, don't get me wrong, but when he beats me it's almost a near perfect. This is unacceptable.

Here's what I've deduced, however. Her air control can be managed, by well timed dagger from full screen. However she can knock you down if you keep spamming it and she's got an OTG air attack.

Her d2 KILLS just about any aerial maneuvers you would like to employ. In practice mode it also has a large hitbox, meaning it can hit you during grounded footsies.

When you look at most Wonder Woman character models, you'll usually remember her crouching. This is almost second nature to WW players because aside from avoiding slides, it's for them to d2. Use your F3 but don't abuse it and become predictable: You need all the damage you can get when you get in close.


Her zoning is not so good. However after you show that you're winning the zoning battle, they'll Shield stance and take virtually no chip. If you think this is an opportunity to rush in and mount an offensive since she can no longer fly, and attempt to assail her before she gets a chance to breathe and go back to lasso stance, BEWARE: If you are in the corner against a SS Wonder Woman, and don't have much experience, stop wasting your and your opponent's time and simply turn thine posterior towards WW and proceed to bend over.(Considering allegations of WW's character model having manly features, this is oddly fitting) An experienced SS WW player will not make you leave that corner for the duration of the match. Parry doesn't parry all of her moves, slide is hit or miss (mostly miss) and trying to jump out is futile.

Indeed,this tranny cornering you literally ends the match.from my experiences playing a good friend,he shields up and daggers/footsies are a no no.He proceeds to d2 my every escape attempt,and his combos carry me to the croner aka the death zone where d3 and d2 insure a victory for WW as i cannot even get a blocked slide for the d1,f3,slide guessing game.Pain In the ass MU.I used to think KF had all easy MUs,i was dead wrong.However,and idk if its from inexperience on my friends part (probably not we play everyday) but if i catch WW with one touch and i have two bars or more,i usually run a lifebar with two guesses.

 

[16 Bit]

What is killing you in the corner? You can parry and blow up both options of her 50/50.

 

[NeckolasBone]

To be honest I guess Im being to predictable with parry and getting knocked down or thrown straight.What exactly should i be anticipating and how should i react?

 

[Rickyraws]

What is killing you in the corner? You can parry and blow up both options of her 50/50.

These events did not transpire during the match. Maybe due to online, maybe due to something I'm missing, but her animations were either mid or high if I had to guess, and twas nary a parry in sight.