General/Other - Erron Black Justice For Erron Black

[Ghosty1981]

Did they change d1 hit advantage? Before the patch I would always follow up a d1 on hit with 21122 and it would work, ( as the hit advantage is 14 and the 21122 string starts in 9 frames) but I've been trying this today and I kept getting poked and uppurcut out of 21122 follow up.

Which patch? I don't recall if d1 ever properly linked with 21122, but it certainly hasn't for a while now.

This is why I complain that d1 has no good follow up. It is a decent poke, but aside from guessing correctly and landing the YOLO grab Erron has nothing he can realistically do after it.

Add in the fact that 21122 is pretty much only useful for occaisionally snagging a grab with 211 (the only tick throw that remains in the string) and Erron is a very frustrating character to use now.

 

[21122]

Which patch? I don't recall if d1 ever properly linked with 21122, but it certainly hasn't for a while now.

This is why I complain that d1 has no good follow up. It is a decent poke, but aside from guessing correctly and landing the YOLO grab Erron has nothing he can realistically do after it.

Add in the fact that 21122 is pretty much only useful for occaisionally snagging a grab with 211 (the only tick throw that remains in the string) and Erron is a very frustrating character to use now.

#COWBOY LIVES MATTER

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE PAULO

 

[SilverWolf]

Which patch? I don't recall if d1 ever properly linked with 21122, but it certainly hasn't for a while now.

This is why I complain that d1 has no good follow up. It is a decent poke, but aside from guessing correctly and landing the YOLO grab Erron has nothing he can realistically do after it.

Add in the fact that 21122 is pretty much only useful for occaisionally snagging a grab with 211 (the only tick throw that remains in the string) and Erron is a very frustrating character to use now.

Haha well I don't remember the last time I used Erron Black before yesterday, but i swear 21122 used to be a legit follow up to a d1 on hit before the latest patch hit (October). Maybe my opponents were simply respecting too much and I just didn't know, but going by the frame data it should still connect right?

 

[Ghosty1981]

Haha well I don't remember the last time I used Erron Black before yesterday, but i swear 21122 used to be a legit follow up to a d1 on hit before the latest patch hit (October). Maybe my opponents were simply respecting too much and I just didn't know, but going by the frame data it should still connect right?

I'd have to lab it to see exactly what is going on, but 21122 starts High so I would imagine that a low poke or uppercut could simply low profile it.

Since Erron pretty much only has the high starter for true damage it is a viable strategy to just go low on him all the time and wait for the opportunity to destroy him. I do it all the time as Leatherface when I play against EB, though LF has a nice 6f low poke.

I will check it out when I get home tonight, but I've tried damn near everything to get even Gunslinger going and I just haven't found anything.

 

[The Farmer]

Pretty sure 21122 jails after a d1 on HIT. HIT being the key word. On block, get fucked. Maybe people's execution is off.

 

[Ghosty1981]

Pretty sure 21122 jails after a d1 on HIT. HIT being the key word. On block, get fucked. Maybe people's execution is off.

Jails maybe, yes, but it doesn't combo.

I don't remember off hand if it actually jails on hit, but it certainly might.

 

[21122]

Aren't you supposed to take a look at the frame data on the second hit of 21122 to see if it's guaranteed on hit because 2 is a high and can be neutral ducked.

So 2 + 1 startup frames = frame advantaged number needed to be guaranteed on hit

 

[Ghosty1981]

Aren't you supposed to take a look at the frame data on the second hit of 21122 to see if it's guaranteed on hit because 2 is a high and can be neutral ducked.

So 2 + 1 startup frames = frame advantaged number needed to be guaranteed on hit

Are we able to look at just the 2 1 frame data? Im still new to the whole fighting game thing, this being my first fighting game since MK3 on the SNES, so I have a hard time with frame data to begin with.

I will be able to check it out in 40 minutes or so, so if I know what to look at I will check it out. What Ive been doing is just setting the AI to make the moves at my best execution possible, then seeing what can be poked, blocked, kountered, ect. If there is a better way to see the 2 1 frame data I will be thrilled.

 

[Ghosty1981]

D1 definitely jails into 21122 on hit, but the 21122 is blockable.

 

[The Farmer]

All you have to do is lab it. I used sub. Set to block random, or whichever option makes the CPU block after contact. Set the CPU to reversal. I was able to jail. Confirm d1 and straight into 21122. Not sure about just neutral ducking after hit. Unsure what the gap is like from Hitstun to neutral ducking.

 

[SilverWolf]

Pretty sure 21122 jails after a d1 on HIT. HIT being the key word. On block, get fucked. Maybe people's execution is off.

Haha yeah that's what I meant. It seems it does through according to everyone. Maybe I just didn't input 21122 fast enough after a d1 on hit?

 

[SilverWolf]

Haha yeah that's what I meant. It seems it does through according to everyone. Maybe I just didn't input 21122 fast enough after a d1 on hit?

Yep definitely waited too long after a d1 on hit before starting 21122 :/

 

[Sage Leviathan]

There it is. If you poke out of this, your only guardian angel is latency, or perhaps your opponent was too slow. There is after all only a small window to jail this; make no mistake, it does jail.

I can't believe this is even being called into question. But I won't allow people to be proponents of bad habits. If you are hit, know the frame data or risk getting hit again.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Let me clarify this even further.
If you are struck by Erron's d1 you should not press a button. You cannot use any armored specials. You cannot backdash or utilize the invincibility frame of an X-Ray.

If you are struck by Erron's d1 (or any character's more advantageous poke for that matter), it's on you if you want to risk pressing your own poke in hopes the opponent will mess up timing, or if you want to risk losing 30% meterless and getting carried to the corner.

 

[Ghosty1981]

Let me clarify this even further.
If you are struck by Erron's d1 you should not press a button. You cannot use any armored specials. You cannot backdash or utilize the invincibility frame of an X-Ray.

If you are struck by Erron's d1 (or any character's more advantageous poke for that matter), it's on you if you want to risk pressing your own poke in hopes the opponent will mess up timing, or if you want to risk losing 30% meterless and getting carried to the corner.

If you get hit by d1 you dont risk 30% meterless unless you are foolish. You block and Erron has a shot at a tick throw on 211 or chip damage by finishing out 21122 (plus chip from whatever ender he throws in) at best.

If you know how to option select or release block/re-block you don't even have to risk the tick throw.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

If you get hit by d1 you dont risk 30% meterless unless you are foolish. You block and Erron has a shot at a tick throw on 211 or chip damage by finishing out 21122 (plus chip from whatever ender he throws in) at best

Are you complaining about getting the chance to pressure the opponent when they're -15 in your face?

I read your post like:

If you get hit by d1 you dont risk 30% meterless unless you are foolish. You block and Erron has a shot at doing literally anything he desires at best

 

[Ghosty1981]

Are you complaining about getting the chance to pressure the opponent when they're -15 in your face?

I read your post like:

No, I'm directly answering your assertion with facts. If the opponent counter-pokes then yes they may eat 30%, but that's only slightly more helpful than saying if the opponent just stands there then Erron can do a full combo against them.

Erron Black doesn't have mix-up options, he doesn't have anything that forces the opponent to make a read. He has a string with a single tick-throw option that is countered with relative ease, and if the tick throw isn't utilized then he must meter-burn (exSandGrenade) in order to prevent a jump out and punish, and all that meter-burn does is reset to neutral.

The problem with Erron is that "whatever he wants" isn't much of anything at this point when the answer to almost everything he can reasonably do is "block low and wait for the chance to punish". His OH is so slow and telegraphed now that it no longer serves the purpose of an OH/Low mix, so it doesn't force the opponent to respect anything else he can do.

There is the B2 tick throw, which is nice, but it remains a relatively minor tool. 21122 is not the swiss army knife that it once was, and there is nothing Erron can do to force an opponent to respect what little it can do.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

No, I'm directly answering your assertion with facts. If the opponent counter-pokes then yes they may eat 30%, but that's only slightly more helpful than saying if the opponent just stands there then Erron can do a full combo against them.

Erron Black doesn't have mix-up options, he doesn't have anything that forces the opponent to make a read. He has a string with a single tick-throw option that is countered with relative ease, and if the tick throw isn't utilized then he must meter-burn (exSandGrenade) in order to prevent a jump out and punish, and all that meter-burn does is reset to neutral.

The problem with Erron is that "whatever he wants" isn't much of anything at this point when the answer to almost everything he can reasonably do is "block low and wait for the chance to punish". His OH is so slow and telegraphed now that it no longer serves the purpose of an OH/Low mix, so it doesn't force the opponent to respect anything else he can do.

There is the B2 tick throw, which is nice, but it remains a relatively minor tool. 21122 is not the swiss army knife that it once was, and there is nothing Erron can do to force an opponent to respect what little it can do.

...so stop using the character?

I'm not talking about anything you just said. The tl;dr of my posts essentially explained that you shouldn't press buttons when you get hit by a decently advantageous poke. That's it.

 

[Ghosty1981]

...so stop using the character?

I'm not talking about anything you just said. The tl;dr of my posts essentially explained that you shouldn't press buttons when you get hit by a decently advantageous poke. That's it.

I agree with your point 100%.

Sadly, I pretty much have stopped using Erron Black. He was literally the reason I bought the game as I like the pistoleer style. Hadn't played a fighting game in 20 years prior to this one. Thankfully Leatherface-Killer fills the void; he not only works waaaaaay better up close, he is much better against zoners as well. Killer is a perfect example of the free flowing style that Gunslinger used to be, albeit in a pure rushdown style.

I still pop in on these discussions in the hope of learning new tech that will reinvigorate Erron, but so far I haven't seen anything to overcome his significant flaws. I don't have a problem with a flawed character, mind you, I just have a problem with flaws that can be exploited by pretty much every other character regardless of variation.

Slow zoning with no mix-ups shouldn't be a character archtype.

 

[SilverWolf]

No, I'm directly answering your assertion with facts. If the opponent counter-pokes then yes they may eat 30%, but that's only slightly more helpful than saying if the opponent just stands there then Erron can do a full combo against them.

Erron Black doesn't have mix-up options, he doesn't have anything that forces the opponent to make a read. He has a string with a single tick-throw option that is countered with relative ease, and if the tick throw isn't utilized then he must meter-burn (exSandGrenade) in order to prevent a jump out and punish, and all that meter-burn does is reset to neutral.

The problem with Erron is that "whatever he wants" isn't much of anything at this point when the answer to almost everything he can reasonably do is "block low and wait for the chance to punish". His OH is so slow and telegraphed now that it no longer serves the purpose of an OH/Low mix, so it doesn't force the opponent to respect anything else he can do.

There is the B2 tick throw, which is nice, but it remains a relatively minor tool. 21122 is not the swiss army knife that it once was, and there is nothing Erron can do to force an opponent to respect what little it can do.

IMO I think the fact that 21122 jails after d1 on hit is still really good. Sure you don't have a fast overhead to mix them once they start respecting, but I mean there are still options such as a raw command grab or baiting an OS on the 211 tick throw. On another note, shouldn't 121 jail after a d1 on hit? I'm not home rn so I can't test it myself but I'm sure, if range isn't a problem, s1 should jail. If it does then that should open up a mix up with 121 or 12~exbf3 both of which are true blockstrings if i remember correctly.

Btw my bad for asking a question that could have easily been labbed, I really didn't think I would get this big of a response so quickly haha. :/

 

[Ghosty1981]

IMO I think the fact that 21122 jails after d1 on hit is still really good. Sure you don't have a fast overhead to mix them once they start respecting, but I mean there are still options such as a raw command grab or baiting an OS on the 211 tick throw. On another note, shouldn't 121 jail after a d1 on hit? I'm not home rn so I can't test it myself but I'm sure, if range isn't a problem, s1 should jail. If it does then that should open up a mix up with 121 or 12~exbf3 both of which are true blockstrings if i remember correctly.

Btw my bad for asking a question that could have easily been labbed, I really didn't think I would get this big of a response so quickly haha. :/

Not sure what good baiting an option select on 211 would be, but I'd have to see how the results play out. Seems like a terrible risk for minimal gain, like most of Errron's options.

As for 121, it should jail if S2 does. What I don't remember is if 12 is cancelable. For whatever reason I thought that it wasn't, but I could be misremembering, or was trying other things with that string. That could be a fun string to play around with for exactly the reason you cite. Gonna have to check that out tonight when I get home.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

IMO I think the fact that 21122 jails after d1 on hit is still really good. Sure you don't have a fast overhead to mix them once they start respecting, but I mean there are still options such as a raw command grab or baiting an OS on the 211 tick throw. On another note, shouldn't 121 jail after a d1 on hit? I'm not home rn so I can't test it myself but I'm sure, if range isn't a problem, s1 should jail. If it does then that should open up a mix up with 121 or 12~exbf3 both of which are true blockstrings if i remember correctly.

Btw my bad for asking a question that could have easily been labbed, I really didn't think I would get this big of a response so quickly haha. :/

-d1~s1 does jail.

-I haven't actually met anyone in a while who OS's 21~Tackle consistently. They usually end up eating the entire 21122 string.

-all strings and normals contain NO gaps when linked into EXClose Sand Grenade, except the following: 1, 11, 11b3, f1, f12, f13, b33. So yes, 12~EXSG is a thing.

I was (and still sort of am) disappointed with the Erron changes over the course of the game's life. But we currently have a very well-balanced product, so maybe it's time to look at how we are using the tools we have. f24 isn't so bad for a mid in regard to Tremor's b1 (they're both 14f FYI). F24 also doesn't have a gap despite how it really, really looks like it does. And on block it's -2, and f242 is -7 with a lot of space.

 

[Ghosty1981]

-all strings and normals contain NO gaps when linked into EXClose Sand Grenade, except the following: 1, 11, 11b3, f1, f12, f13, b33. So yes, 12~EXSG is a thing.

Not dumping on what you write here, just highlighting the problem I mentioned before: the answer to all of these strings except the last is block low and retaliate after Erron wastes meter.

If 12 is cancelable, however, that will help immensely. I don't remember how plus it is on knockdown (121), though.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Not dumping on what you write here, just highlighting the problem I mentioned before: the answer to all of these strings except the last is block low and retaliate after Erron wastes meter.

If 12 is cancelable, however, that will help immensely. I don't remember how plus it is on knockdown (121), though.

121 is a +8 HKD.

 

[The Farmer]

121, 12 exsg is a useful mix. Better than nothing. D1 jail into 21122 still has some gimmicks you can use sparingly in gunslinger. I don't know why people get tagged with this but I hit people with 21122 coin shot all the time. People just assume sos3 or exsandgrenade is coming and forget about coin.