General/Other Joker Community Trait Buff Suggestions To NRS

[Jack White]

Lol, I actually did a Wonder Woman style "HIYA!" after reading your post. Gonna take to twitter.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I think it has been put on Twitter already (and I don't have an account), but I'm all for it. I would say we might wanna make a new thread that covers more than just the trait (frame issues and such), unless that's all we want to ask for.

 

[Gilbagz]

I think it has been put on Twitter already (and I don't have an account), but I'm all for it. I would say we might wanna make a new thread that covers more than just the trait (frame issues and such), unless that's all we want to ask for.

Besides the trait what else do we want though?

The common buffs asked for right now are
- f+2 to hit as an overhead
- consistency for mids, i.e. 2,1,2 and f+2,3
- b+1 combos into rlg

Is there anything else?

Personally I want crowbar to be safe and for it to have a damage buff. Outside of the corner, right now its pretty useless. The hardknock down is nice but doesn't do much midscreen.

 

[Ren21]

lol @ the Valle digs

The main problem I feel with Joker is when I stack him up with top tier (and upper top) character options, all of them have A: really good zoning or counter zoning(Supes,Aquaman, lantern,). B: Ways to get in besides block/dash (Adam, batman, Dooms). C: Excellent pressure to STAY in once there in (Aquaman, Supes, Batman).

Joker is subpar at all these currently. Gets outzoned hard and once hes in to start shenanigans, 1 smart backdash or a wrong read from a wakeup attack sends you back to block/dash. Yes his trait is slow and useless and needs to be addressed to increase his overall capabilities, but he needs a little more to stack up vs the ridiculous tools top characters have.

Buffing the parry itself (1 frame startup or active/rec frames changed) is excellent place to start but to make him really competitive he needs something really worthwhile and viable to boost one of those three abilities. Flash got his mb dash so he can get in more more consistantly, thats a step in the right direction for him. Catwomen got a true high low mixup to help keep her pressure up once shes in. It really wont take much to get Joker in there.

Edit: Buffs to tweet

His mids fixed
SOME type of parry buff to make it more practical to land

Those two need to be done ASAP

Other great changes

Increase teeth blockstun
His sweep always hard knockdown off juggle
F2 OH and B1 buff. This would make Joker very competitive.
Safe crowbar I feel is a little lackluster. It'll be a pressure option but I wouldnt make this a priority. Making it less negative on block would be smart though as currently its useless for how unsafe it is.

 

[Jack White]

My suggestion: After using RLG/LG the Joker can move freely immediately afterwards and dash cancel the lag instead of being forced to stand still. Pressing Meterburn at any point while grounded will cause Joker to shoot the gas. Speed up the start up a bit more and this would add a legitimate way for The Joker to get in on zoners and start some pressure.

 

[Gilbagz]

One thing i'm worried about though is even if parry was easier to land. Is there still any reason to respect it?
11% isn't that much, and hahaha joker is only hard to anti air on reaction.
Joker excels in the air, so with HA's he does become a monster, but against people with good air control anyway it doesn't mean crap.
Plus stacking ha's is going to be ridiculously difficult.

I still hope for some form of a damage buff (either a damage boost after landing a parry or another buff in the parry damage itself). Or maybe Ha's could just be permanent. But they really need to get rid of that acceleration limiter on start up for walking. With Ha's, getting in would a hell of a lot easier with his SF style walk speed.

An idea I was throwing around early on was having teeth set ups off a parry on hit. So maybe, the hit advantage on parry increases as the ha stack increases. E.g. at 3 Ha's, the hit advantage is so great so he is able to get a set of teeth out and get a safe meaty jump in. Sounds fairly broken, but if we did somehow stack 3 ha's, the reward should be crazy.

The sweep hard knockdown isn't required imo but would be nice. f+2,1 should be his go to for hard knockdowns. The hit advantage is higher than sweep and it is much more consistent. Maybe they could at least make his sweep safe. Its slow as hell, and the only thing it has going for it is its range.

As for the crowbar stuff. I'm only placing so much focus on it cuz of the otg he gets in the corner. If it was safe, Joker could have a legitimate vortex. After a crowbar knockdown in the corner you can otg with standing 3, b1, crowbar and d2. Standing 3, b1 and d2 all deny wake up attacks. You have to commit to blocking low for the b1, if they try to wake up attack, you can b1 into crowbar again to reset the situation. Once they block low to beat this, you can otg with naked crowbar to reset again. Now this doesn't really work cuz crowbar is so damn slow, and even still the damage sucks. But if crowbar was buffed, there is a legitimate mix up with the standing 3. When people commit to the wake up to beat the otg crowbar, you can beat the wake up with 3,2 ex rlg into standard combo. He could have a deadly vortex game in the corner. But it is non-existant right now cuz of the state of the crowbar. It is too slow that you can fuzzy guard it and the b1, and even still on block you get punished. If it was buffed you could play a 50-50 game on wake up using crowbar and b1 crowbar. Once they wake up trying to get out of the otg crowbar, you can otg using the 3,2.
All theory craft right now, but I believe it could work with a crowbar buff.

 

[laudanum09]

Interesting stuff.

I'm going to go off Ren21 's post.

Joker has three problems

1.) Outzoned with no counter zone option
2.) Ways to get in
3.) Keep pressure once in

I personally, like Gilbagz, don't get Joker. What is he supposed to do? What kind of character is he? Was there really much thought even put into it? lol. So what of these three areas does Joker do best at? I think it's 3, if not for sheer lack of options for 1 and 2. He has safe stuff, pretty good strings with good frames with + or 0 on most. I think he needs a high/low mixup game and some way to reset/keep pressure up.

-F.2 as an Overhead and b.1 to combo into RLG gives him a good high game and a 1 bar required safe low game. Good enough, nothing special but will do the trick. Maybe to make things more unique, give him some low, hard knockdown string like b.1, d.3 for teeth setups. Go high for damage, go low for potential teeth reset? It'd have to be a hard knockdown with fast recovery though for it to be legit.

-Make flower better. MB into stun state might be much but that's as a character, in terms of the game's balance it's kid's stuff compared to the goods other chars have. At least reduce pushback and make it more + on hit and block. Do something with this move, imo it has the most potential out of all of his stuff because it is universally useful as is and stand resets.

-Do something with crowbar and high laughing gas. I hate moves with no real utility or gimmicky/random utility.

None of these aforementioned changes would make him OP or even all that strong since other folks can do those things better, it would just make him bump up a tier and be competitive.

 

[Ren21]

Lol I dont know where they were going with Joker on release. Terrible hit confirms, shit range and speed on normals (besides sweep), two useless moves and a useless trait. I'm thinking the potential unblockables with teeth made them tone him down. I'm sure they didnt anticipate trait uselessness though. I should read the Injustice guide Joker section and get some insight . At this point Joker just seems like a honest character that lacks a few tools to keep up.

His neutral pressure is ok now with 212 into pushblock baits or reads using teeth to keep you safe (has holes obviously), his corner pressure is great. You just have to play really really solid and know your matchups to be any type of competitive with him currently. Where on the other hand you have Superman f23 pressure blowing up anyone that doesn't have answer to that single string.

But you're very right about the parry Gil. As a timed speed buff, its pretty bad in general especially with that startup limiter when he starts walking. Either making the parry easier to land and having the reward a bit better (hard knockdown and/or the walk speed a little faster without the limiter) or leaving the parry as is and making a potential read really worth it (Unblockable teeth charges or something worth the read). It just feels likely they'd lean towards the former but both are great solutions.

Crowbar and sweep I feel are both on the backburner for sure. Crowbar being safe would be nice be he needs something bigger. Not to mention we have a setup in the corner that blows up majority of wakeups in the corner for 1 meter(cancel a combo with teeth near the corner, push block into teeth). The crowbar corner setups are good but Joker is already pretty strong in the corner and crowbar doesn't help stay in midscreen. F2/b1 buffs would be perfect and would solve Joker's staying in problem 100%.

 

[SunLord5]

They should make crowbar a far attack that wakes up and is invincible, also make it -3 on block and start combos! Basically KF-style but overhead. Give it crappy priority in return (can jump back and 3 it like slide) except for the MB version (would be kinda like Kabal ex nomad dash). Maybe I'll tweet that but I don't have a twitter account.

Perhaps they could also add a new teeth: hold down to make teeth travel very far... so you can teeth to -3 MB far crowbar at different times and have potential to be great at closing the gap.

Parry can get anything that triples to 2.5x its strength and it would be all better.

Maybe just remove HLG from the game it's the shittiest attack ever.

Who knows maybe Joker has an attack that isn't in the moves list, just like Raven has two of those.

 

[laudanum09]

So I think there's no lack of ideas on our part.

As far as tweet bombing Boon and Co. should we start off immediately with suggestions or just ask if/when/how Joker will be buffed or if they're even paying attention to them?

I think we should have a consensus and then tweet Boon in the same time frame, maybe Paulo would be better. They can ignore one or two but if they get like 5-10 theyll have to respond somehow.

I'm personally thinking about trying to get them to come here and read through this thread to see how we're all feeling about it.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Alot of good ideas. Frame fixes that cause his combos to wiff on some characters certainly need a fix- I doubt that is intentional. To summarize, I think it's clear that:

A) Joker's trait needs a fair bit of work; probably a 1 frame start up with slightly more active frames would do the trick, as well as a bit more from the HA buff (the speed doesn't amount to much or make him any more threatening, needs a slight damage boost or something as well to really matter).
B) In addition, something a bit more than just the trait is needed to really make him competitive. Some ideas we've gone through:
-Making the gun hit mid rather than high would go a long way to help against zoners.
-Speeding up the HLG more to make it worth using.
-Change up the crowbar; make it lunge farther, have less recovery time, or something else to make it more worth using (such a cool/funny move!).
-Possibly being able to combo b1 into RLG for a low combo starter? Don't think this would break him, though it is fast.
-Invulnerability frames on one of his wakeups; flower or an improved crowbar could function well as wakeups to help him get pressure off him.

We'll take what we can get, but a few of these changes would go a long way to helping Joker compete. Character has too much flavor and is FAR too iconic to be stuck on the bottom of the tier list. As far as the best way to hit up Twitter, I'd say everyone that has an account hit up Boon and whoever else and ask about Joker changes that are on the horizon and send them here if they need some inspiration, or if they would like some feedback from the community regarding the character.

 

[TheRFG]

This may have been said, sorry for not reading all 7 pages. It would be nice to have a grundy esk parry option where the user of joker gets a combo like grundy that they can choose for speed, damage, recovery frame boost, etc. Plus they would get a little damage combo, and would encourage more users of him to time a parry (use it more)

 

[RYX]

Yeah but the parry wiff on command grabs seems like a glitch anyways. Doesn't make much sense at least for it to work.

Command grabs beat all of the parries.

Or, at least Bane's does.

 

[MetaSkipper]

There's a video somewhere, bit busy to find it. Basically, Joker an force almost every command grab to whiff, including Bane's super.

 

[MetaSkipper]

As I said in the general thread, I think Joker's buffs should be centered around his role a mixup-heavy character, so his buffs should focus on helping him get in close, and making layered/hard-to-block mixups.

Some ideas include:

Getting In

• general walk speed increase/dash buff: faster=closer
• make more things dash-cancel-able: I'm thinking acid flower might actually be a good candidate.
• parry doesn't push so far away: if parry does not leave a stun state, I think it would be nice if it didn't push them so far away we can at least get a mixup.

Mixing Up

• Give teeth a longer (wider along ground) hitbox: makes backdashing slightly riskier, also gives more space control in general, especially as an oki option
• Make High Gas hit overhead (both canister and MB explosion): I don't know if it already does, but allows for mix-ups further away with Far Teeth.
• Make B2 unblockable and bounce cancel-able: could be used in some teeth-meaty setups, but you need to pay two bars for a combo. Seems fair.
• When Teeth interrupt unteched grabs, Joker is never hurt: One of the problems with the Teeth/Grab mixup is that you get less damage if your opponent takes the grab, and your opponent can tech roll away. Meanwhile, Joker goes sailing in the air. If you tech the grab, Joker gets a full combo. Thusly, the correct option it to take the 9% always. It's a guaranteed 9%, but better than a full combo if you tech. Thusly, the mixup is not really a mixup at all. With this solution, Joker always gets a full combo off Teeth+Grab, and the only escape is seeing it coming. This buff may or may not apply to when Teeth interrupts Joker getting grabbed.
• Teeth cannot interrupt grabs: In this fix, you either tech and take a combo, or take the grab and another mixup. This has the stealth nerf of not helping Joker escape grabs, however.
• Give Crowbar Special armor: You don't get a combo, but you get a decent mixup tool for oki.
• Certain moves gain low/overhead/unblockable properties at a given level of Ha's: rewards landing parries in a way that develops Joker's core gameplay. With parry buffs, this discourages opponents from poking out/waking up of mixups. An opponent that isn't poking out is one that has had one of the best "screw guessing" options taken away from him.
• faster moves in general: the more moves we can fit in before we get pushed too far away, the better, especially if those moves are lows and overheads.

Just some ideas, no doubt some of them are unbalanced.

 

[Gilbagz]

Finally got around to tweeting Paulo and Ed
laudanum09

To everyone else, start tweeting too!

 

[laudanum09]

k I'll hit em up today.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Command grabs beat all of the parries.

Or, at least Bane's does.

Actually Joker's is the other way around. If you parry at the right time when a character goes for a command grab, both the grab and the parry wiff. But Joker's parry is a bit faster, so you usually have advantage. Like I said, seems more like a glitch than anything else.

 

[Neariak]

All of this QQing about things that are supposedly OP and shit gets hotfixed and patched in a rush but what about stuff that's underpowered? Lobo/Joker/Lex/Bane tier is hurting the most and only the Bane guys have been loud about things. People mention stuff here and there but it's almost as if people overplay Joker's viability or just ignore him altogether.

We should do what someone else suggested and take it to twitter. The ways of the scrub seem to actually get things done while the Joker forum just sits patiently and politely. Not talking about being whiny or annoying but at least making the point that we're here. We will twiddle our thumbs and continue to be patient but at least drop a word or two to let us know whether we need to find a new main before seriously competing.

What say all you?

@ Alex "1,1 is my hitconfirm, d.1 punish all day" Valle

Sorry if I missed any other regular posters

I have tried to find a new main, god knows I have tried, but Joker is the only character I have enjoyed so far.

Batman is brain numbing to me.

KF is fun, but I fear the slide is going to get nerfed to hell.

Superman......no, just no.

Black Adam is cool if I wanted to be part of the majority.

Same with GL.

I could go on, but I thought I would just do the top 5.

I would love to see Joker get

Better Anti Zoner tools, god knows he gets destroyed by a good zoner.

A USEFUL FUCKING TRAIT, I was trying out Shazam the other day and was like "I ACTUALLY HAVE TO HIT THE TRAIT BUTTON? WHAT IS THIS MAGICAL BUTTON?!?!"

Thats all I can think of for now that I am willing to share, I have a few other ideas, but I need to iron them out first. Been kinda busy, stupid summer classes having stupid midterms.

 

[Wild Card]

My biggest beef with joker right now is accidentally doing air laughing gas after succesfully blocking an enemy cross up, when in all reality, i wanted to do B+1...

I just get punished so hard because of this crap move.

 

[laudanum09]

that's your biggest beef? really?

 

[Ren21]

Wild card you must be using the standard MK controls. To avoid mistaken inputs like that learn Joker on the alternate "SF" style controls. It'll make Joker harder overall but he is a lot more consistant on SF inputs.

We definitely have to make another thread for community buffs to Joker OUTSIDE of trait and leave this as trait ideas only. But i'm sure we can for the most part agree (going with the poll as well) as of now, increasing the likelihood of landing the trait is the FIRST issue that needs to be addressed. Decreasing the startup to 1 or 0 frames or changing its active and recovery frames have been the most popular options over these few weeks.

Its really not too much to ask and its definitely a realistic starting point to get things rolling. With just a startup change alone, it'll enable us to parry string gaps consistantly giving us much more potential to earn more then one HA and make a lot of characters change there strings around vs Joker. That would give the parry a lot of viability in general which is the point of this thread, changes to make the trait not useless.

 

[laudanum09]

If a new, general community buffs thread isn't up by the time I'm home after work I'll make one.

Funny enough, Paulo stopped by a random thread about stance change glitches on Joker's flower frame advantage.

I asked him to take a look around at other threads and maybe give us a word or two to address our concerns. We have been the quietest, most polite and patient bunch.

Anyways get your tweets on. Tell boon/paulo/hector whatever is on your minds. I just said that we could use a word of encouragement about them looking more into buffing Joker. Worst char and possibly most ignored in the game too? I got no replies so hit em up guys, let em know we're here and it's not just one or two people.

 

[Wild Card]

that's your biggest beef? really?

...okay... Maybe not.. But from a technical standpoint, it is currently my issue right now. I know there are an assload of other problems but... Yeah..

 

[laudanum09]

...okay... Maybe not.. But from a technical standpoint, it is currently my issue right now. I know there are an assload of other problems but... Yeah..

I agree but it's a fault of the engine and control scheme.