Match-Up Discussion - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage Matchup Thread

[rafaw]

Even not considering the fact that EX forceball might whiff in a blockstring if the opponent is blocking low (in which case you are dead), being +4 with pushback for a bar is not great at all compared to what the other characters in meta get when spending a bar.
It can't be considered a very good frametrap in MKX, when nearly anyone else (even non pressure characters) gets a lot more on block after a EX move.

Kung Lao Tempest gets guaranteed pressure
Shinnok gets guaranteed pressure
Quan Chi gets guaranteed pressure
Kung Jin gets + 7 with pushback
Erron Black gets +7 without pushback
Predator Hunter gets guaranteed pressure
Tanya Kobu Jutsu gets guaranteed pressure
Jaquie full auto gets guaranteed pressure
Raiden Ex projectile is extremely plus
Kotal gets guaranteed pressure
etc.....

I'm sure if I go in practice mode and examine every character I'll find a ton more.

Those caracters get guaranteed pressure, not exacly frame traps hehe.
exFB is +4, f3 is 11, so it makes F3 a 7 frames advancing norma, they cant use a normal after that bc it will take 1 frame more to get out of block, so would make F3 trade with a 6 frame normal.
Its a good frame trap, i get people all the time with it.

 

[Asodimazze]

Those caracters get guaranteed pressure, not exacly frame traps hehe.
exFB is +4, f3 is 11, so it makes F3 a 7 frames advancing norma, they cant use a normal after that bc it will take 1 frame more to get out of block, so would make F3 trade with a 6 frame normal.
Its a good frame trap, i get people all the time with it.

If the opponent is not cornered, after blocking Ex fireball he can just backdash.
It beats all of Johnny normals (f3 too) and specials except shadow kick, which is never an option...to counter backdash you should run but it is probably a suicide since the opponent can also do armored reversals, block, and other stuff.

I use ex forceball too, but mostly for chip...I don't think that a player that knows Cage will get hit by this frametrap.

I would buff df2 Ex to + 15 on block. Obviously nobody will agree but if non pressure characters get guaranteed pressure, I don't see why Johnny shouldn't.

This would give him 30%+ blockstrings, and that is fair. Liu Kang, Kung Lao, Tanya, Quan and Shinnok can suck a dick.

 

[Phosferrax]

If the opponent is not cornered, after blocking Ex fireball he can just backdash.
It beats all of Johnny normals (f3 too) and specials except shadow kick, which is never an option...to counter backdash you should run but it is probably a suicide since the opponent can also do armored reversals, block, and other stuff.

I use ex forceball too, but mostly for chip...I don't think that a player that knows Cage will get hit by this frametrap.

I would buff df2 Ex to + 15 on block. Obviously nobody will agree but if non pressure characters get guaranteed pressure, I don't see why Johnny shouldn't.

This would give him 30%+ blockstrings, and that is fair. Liu Kang, Kung Lao, Tanya, Quan and Shinnok can suck a dick.

By backdashing, they're putting themselves in the corner.

This is the usual MKX thing coming up again. My + frames aren't enough because the opponent can armour me: saying running is suicide is downplaying. You have to make a read, you've just got to deal with that.

Aside from hotbox fixes, this character is not deserving of buffs.

 

[Killer Xinok]

If the opponent is not cornered, after blocking Ex fireball he can just backdash.
It beats all of Johnny normals (f3 too) and specials except shadow kick, which is never an option...to counter backdash you should run but it is probably a suicide since the opponent can also do armored reversals, block, and other stuff.

I use ex forceball too, but mostly for chip...I don't think that a player that knows Cage will get hit by this frametrap.

I would buff df2 Ex to + 15 on block. Obviously nobody will agree but if non pressure characters get guaranteed pressure, I don't see why Johnny shouldn't.

This would give him 30%+ blockstrings, and that is fair. Liu Kang, Kung Lao, Tanya, Quan and Shinnok can suck a dick.

I usually wait for a reaction of the opponent after I do ex forceball in the corner, is much more viable to do a whiff punish rather than trying a continuous pressure, which is not even a true frame trap.

 

[Chongo]

The only buff that I want is for f34 to be like -4 or something, but I'm completely fine with it being -8 as is.

 

[IrishMantis]

The only buff that I want is for f34 to be like -4 or something, but I'm completely fine with it being -8 as is.

But other than Fistycuffs you can make it plus on block I mostly only use F3 up shadow your like at least +2 if it hits it launches if it doesn't keep going with pressure, in the corner I use F3 straight shadow which is +13 if it's high damage combo if it doesn't you have a block string

 

[rafaw]

But other than Fistycuffs you can make it plus on block I mostly only use F3 up shadow your like at least +2 if it hits it launches if it doesn't keep going with pressure, in the corner I use F3 straight shadow which is +13 if it's high damage combo if it doesn't you have a block string

F3 into any mimic shadow has a gap to armor through!

 

[Chongo]

But other than Fistycuffs you can make it plus on block I mostly only use F3 up shadow your like at least +2 if it hits it launches if it doesn't keep going with pressure, in the corner I use F3 straight shadow which is +13 if it's high damage combo if it doesn't you have a block string

Only reason I said for that is because at the start of the match, I like to start of with f3 mimic into shenanigans, but if they backdash then it will just be f34 and the 4 will catch the backdash. It's really not something I think that he needs real bad, it's just his worst issue is the mids whiffing which I don't see nrs fixing anytime soon, and he really doesn't need anything else except for better air moves

 

[Kompetitor]

I usually wait for a reaction of the opponent after I do ex forceball in the corner, is much more viable to do a whiff punish rather than trying a continuous pressure, which is not even a true frame trap.

If you read that your opponent will armor, you can f3 and instantly exnutpunch, it beats sonya's leg grab, suns ice burst, lao's spin, etc. Really useful if you expect armor

 

[Killer Xinok]

If you read that your opponent will armor, you can f3 and instantly exnutpunch, it beats sonya's leg grab, suns ice burst, lao's spin, etc. Really useful if you expect armor

Yep. But against some 6 frames reversal move chars, it's unviable.. It works against reversal lao's spin? I'll try again someday, cause when I tried, I got caught by the spin even before my knee hits him, so I couldn't cancel into armor

 

[Phosferrax]

F3 into any mimic shadow has a gap to armor through!

Are you sure?

 

[Killer Xinok]

Are you sure?

I think he meant "F3 xx mimic cancel xx mimic shadow kick/mimic rising shadow"

 

[Kompetitor]

Yep. But against some 6 frames reversal move chars, it unviable.. It works against reversal lao's spin? I'll try again someday, cause when I tried, I got caught by the spin even before my knee hits him, so I couldn't cancel into armor

My bad it doesnt work against lao's spin, bad example, the other 2 work for sure though

 

[IrishMantis]

F3 into any mimic shadow has a gap to armor through!

Not it doesn't

 

[IrishMantis]

Only reason I said for that is because at the start of the match, I like to start of with f3 mimic into shenanigans, but if they backdash then it will just be f34 and the 4 will catch the backdash. It's really not something I think that he needs real bad, it's just his worst issue is the mids whiffing which I don't see nrs fixing anytime soon, and he really doesn't need anything else except for better air moves

Why do people cancel into F3, that's just risky I can't find a reason other than hopefully you hit. Maybe there is

The only normal that's relatively safe to cancel into shadow load up is standing 4 since it's only -12 with a lot of blocksstun.
113 is okay every now and again I guess since your already committing to an unsafe string.
I use D4 cancel a lot since you have a good chance of hitting with opponents respecting the OH

Other than that I load my shadows up after F34 (only few chars can punish) EX Shadow kick and end my combo's with back 2 so I can load up and have advantage

 

[M2Dave]

Even not considering the fact that EX forceball might whiff in a blockstring if the opponent is blocking low (in which case you are dead), being +4 with pushback for a bar is not great at all compared to what the other characters in meta get when spending a bar.
It can't be considered a very good frametrap in MKX, when nearly anyone else (even non pressure characters) gets a lot more on block after a EX move.

Kung Lao Tempest gets guaranteed pressure
Shinnok gets guaranteed pressure
Quan Chi gets guaranteed pressure
Kung Jin gets + 7 with pushback
Erron Black gets +7 without pushback
Predator Hunter gets guaranteed pressure
Tanya Kobu Jutsu gets guaranteed pressure
Jaquie full auto gets guaranteed pressure
Raiden Ex projectile is extremely plus
Kotal gets guaranteed pressure
etc.....

I'm sure if I go in practice mode and examine every character I'll find a ton more.

Well, speaking of examination, if you examine A-List Johnny Cage, you will realize that a properly run-canceled f+3 from the shadow kick into another f+3 is guaranteed pressure. As is 3,3,3, which you can use in combos after nut punch. The cancels require practice, but the option is available. Besides, if EX force ball were any more advantageous, Cage would potentially have block infinite combos akin to Liu Kang.

Why is A-List Johnny Cage considered bad in this forum? He has the fastest and longest advancing mid attack in the game that guarantees a follow up. Cage's f+3 is faster by one frame and has slightly more range and block advantage than D'Vorah's f+1 string. He has the same d+4 as Shinnok. I believe Cage's has slightly better frames on block. He has a reset that guarantees follow ups that guarantee a follow up. He has launching armor as a wake up attack and a full screen armor move for anti-zoning. He even has good fireballs in this game. They recover better than Pyromancer Tanya's for whatever reasons.

What else do you fools want? Characters like Predator and Shinnok will most likely be normalized a little bit while everyone in the community perceives Johnny Cage to be abysmal thanks to this forum. You have absolutely nothing to worry about.

 

[Asodimazze]

Well, speaking of examination, if you examine A-List Johnny Cage, you will realize that a properly run-canceled f+3 from the shadow kick into another f+3 is guaranteed pressure. As is 3,3,3, which you can use in combos after nut punch. The cancels require practice, but the option is available. Besides, if EX force ball were any more advantageous, Cage would potentially have block infinite combos akin to Liu Kang.

Why is A-List Johnny Cage considered bad in this forum? He has the fastest and longest advancing mid attack in the game that guarantees a follow up. Cage's f+3 is faster by one frame and has slightly more range and block advantage than D'Vorah's f+1 string. He has the same d+4 as Shinnok. I believe Cage's has slightly better frames on block. He has a reset that guarantees follow ups that guarantee a follow up. He has launching armor as a wake up attack and a full screen armor move for anti-zoning. He even has good fireballs in this game. They recover better than Pyromancer Tanya's for whatever reasons.

What else do you fools want? Characters like Predator and Shinnok will most likely be normalized a little bit while everyone in the community perceives Johnny Cage to be abysmal thanks to this forum. You have absolutely nothing to worry about.

Cage is not too bad examined individually, he is bad compared to the others....his best tool is his pressure but in that department he is still much inferior to Lao, Tanya, Liu Kang, Shinnok (and this should be his best tool).
I can do everything with A-List and I'm well aware of his cancel pressure. You are right in saying that if ex forceball was more advantageous he might have semi block infinites....it sound ridicolous but would that be wrong in a game where other characters have it already?

You can also notice that he is extremely weak in many important areas:

useless air punches
bad anti airs
slow normals
an incredible number of whiffing normals
shitty njp
useless uppercut
no 50-50
shitty mobility
very bad throw

My conclusion is that he is average in what he does best and really bad in all the other stuff....and this is only talking about A-List. That said, there are a lot of optimistic guys here so I might be wrong.

* If they don't buff him and nerf all the top tiers it's still fine for me.
** F3 is not the longest mid attack, Cassie b1 has the same startup and better range.

 

[Vintagesoul]

I use Johnny's d2 to beat all jump punches, even Lao's jump 2. (The only distance where it loses is when Lao is doing the jump 2 out of range and you get hit by the hat because d2 extends your hurt box). Not sure why people are calling it bad.

 

[M2Dave]

Cage is not too bad examined individually, he is bad compared to the others....his best tool is his pressure but in that department he is still much inferior to Lao, Tanya, Liu Kang, Shinnok (and this should be his best tool).
I can do everything with A-List and I'm well aware of his cancel pressure. You are right in saying that if ex forceball was more advantageous he might have semi block infinites....it sound ridicolous but would that be wrong in a game where other characters have it already?

My guess is that these pseudo block infinite combos will most likely be removed in the next patch. Besides, Liu Kang was another character the community constantly downplayed but now realize he may be strong. The same is true for Tremor.

You can also notice that he is extremely weak in many important areas:

useless air punches - j.1 is not too good but not too bad either.
bad anti airs - you can anti air with 2 and uppercut, but you have to familiarize yourself with the appropriate ranges. In general, anti airing is a poorly understood concept in this game that will be vehemently discussed on the next episode of the Kombat Tomb Podcast. When people in this community think anti air, they think of a single normal attack or special move that ought to hit the opponent's jump 100% of the time no matter the range. Mortal Kombat X is not Mortal Kombat 9. Each character has a unique jump arc that includes unique jumping attacks. You have to study each match up in order to determine the best approach to anti airing.
slow normals - you corrected me and brought up Cassie's b+1, which has the same speed as Cage's f+3. Why do you consider these moves to be slow? They are the best at what they do. The only advancing poke that is faster is Shinnok's f+4.
an incredible number of whiffing normals - the best ones (i.e., f+3, f+2,4, d+4, etc.) do not whiff.
shitty njp - true, but you cannot have everything.
useless uppercut - false.
no 50-50 - f+2,4 and d+4.
shitty mobility - aside from Jacqui, he may have the best walk speed in the game.
very bad throw - only mid screen. In the corner, you can resume pressure after throwing.

Your argument is basically "Cage has no block infinite combo. He is average at best." LOL. I genuinely have nothing else to say.

 

[rafaw]

Well, speaking of examination, if you examine A-List Johnny Cage, you will realize that a properly run-canceled f+3 from the shadow kick into another f+3 is guaranteed pressure. As is 3,3,3, which you can use in combos after nut punch. The cancels require practice, but the option is available. Besides, if EX force ball were any more advantageous, Cage would potentially have block infinite combos akin to Liu Kang.

Why is A-List Johnny Cage considered bad in this forum? He has the fastest and longest advancing mid attack in the game that guarantees a follow up. Cage's f+3 is faster by one frame and has slightly more range and block advantage than D'Vorah's f+1 string. He has the same d+4 as Shinnok. I believe Cage's has slightly better frames on block. He has a reset that guarantees follow ups that guarantee a follow up. He has launching armor as a wake up attack and a full screen armor move for anti-zoning. He even has good fireballs in this game. They recover better than Pyromancer Tanya's for whatever reasons.

What else do you fools want? Characters like Predator and Shinnok will most likely be normalized a little bit while everyone in the community perceives Johnny Cage to be abysmal thanks to this forum. You have absolutely nothing to worry about.

A list is considered bad in this forum bc theres a lot of people that just follow the opnion of others, they dont analise the caracter, they dont actually know the caracter, Cage is not top tier bc theres a lot of bullshit in the top tiers, if that gets normalized cage will shine.
F3 is godlike imo, the armors too. But the whiffing problem is real, 114 is a huge tool for JC.

And i dont think Cages njp is bad, just the horizontal range is bad!

 

[rafaw]

Not it doesn't

i meant to write "F3xxMimicCancel into any mimic shadow" F3xxMUS/MSK is a blockstring!

 

[Asodimazze]

Your argument is basically "Cage has no block infinite combo. He is average at best." LOL. I genuinely have nothing else to say.

I usually agree with you but....Dave your answers to my points made 0 sense.
I am not sure that you know Cage at all at this point. You should just check the countless post or videos that shows his problems before answering. A few points:

J1 doesn't hit crouching opponents if not at a perfect angle, how can you consider it decent? Not only me, but even Dizzy and the other players say that his jumping attacks suck...don't write nonsense

You said that I consider Cage f3 slow when I always said it is a great move, 11f is not slow for this kind of move. Cage normals are slow in general because he doesn't have a 7 frame move and his S1 is 9 frames, that's why he is slow. f3 has nothing to do with that...

1, 114, S4, etc. are bad normals? I should just play with f3 d4 and f24? lol what are you talking about. His whiffing problems are very serious.

You don't have to teach me what is an anti air. I know that thanks, it doesn't change the fact that his options suck and he is free to many jump ins.

His throw leaves Cage at 0 on hit. It is shitty anywhere on the screen I don't know why you think it is better in the corner

 

[IrishMantis]

Oh cool dude maybe I should of being more clear

 

[crosstalk]

Not everyone thinks Cage is abysmal. I used to but the more I played him the more I saw in him.

He has issues but he's definitely viable. Both SD and A-List can get into a top 8 I think.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Your argument is basically "Cage has no block infinite combo. He is average at best." LOL. I genuinely have nothing else to say.

That is the dumbest, most hyperbolic summation that anyone could have about what he said.