Match-Up Discussion - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage Matchup Thread

[Name v.5.0]

This is my A-List matchup chart; I'll write numbers only considering the variations against which I had experience.
What do you think? discuss

Kung Lao (Tempest, Buzzsaw) = 3-7
Jax (Heavy Weapons, Pumped up) = 4-6
Sonya (Covert Ops) = 5-5 --- (Demolition) = 4-6
Kenshi (Balanced) = 3-7
Kitana (Royal Storm) = 4-6
Scorpion (Inferno, Ninjustu, Inferno) = 4-6
Sub-Zero (Cryomancer) = 6-4 --- (Grandmaster) = 2-8
Mileena (Piercing, Ravenous) = 4-6
Takeda (Shirai Ryu) = 5-5
Cassie (Hollywood) = 3-7
Jaquie (Full-Auto) = 3.5/6.5
Kung Jin (Bojutsu, Shaolin) = 4-6
Shinnok (Necromancer, Impostor) = 4-6 --- (Boneshaper) = 3-7
Kano (Cybernetic) = 3.5-6.5 --- (Cutthroat) = 5-5
Erron Black (Outlaw, Marksman) = 4-6
Liu Kang (Flame fist, Dragon Fire) = 3-7
Ermac (Master Of Souls) = 4-6
Kotal Khan (War God) = 5-5
Reptile (Noxious) = 5-5
FerraTorr (Vicious) = 4-6
D'Vorah (Brood Mother) = 3.5-6.5
Raiden (Thunder God) = 3.5-6.5 --- (Teleporter) = 6-4
Quan Chi (Summoner) = 5-5
Goro (Kuatan Warrior, Dragon Fangs = 6-4
Jason (Relentless) = 5-5
Tanya (Kobu Jutsu) = 3-7
Predator = ?
Tremor = ?

Thank you for posting. You have him losing a LOT of MU's...are you sure about these? I cant see A-List losing to FA Jacqui.

I also have a list of MU numbers (for SD Johnny), but it's incomplete. I think you've made me want to post it

 

[Asodimazze]

Thank you for posting. You have him losing a LOT of MU's...are you sure about these? I cant see A-List losing to FA Jacqui.

I also have a list of MU numbers (for SD Johnny), but it's incomplete. I think you've made me want to post it

Yes, I feel that Johnny is bottom 5 unfortunately. I posted my match up chart just to open a discussion, maybe other A-List mains think differently.
I'm curious about your SD matchup numbers too

 

[lm Tweakk]

I think stunt double johnny is a good matchup against summoner quan.

Everything johnny does in that matchup is a legit frame trap because of Quans lack of armor. All shadows are plus af

 

[Paul the Octopus]

This is my A-List matchup chart; I'll write numbers only considering the variations against which I had experience.
What do you think? discuss

Kung Lao (Tempest, Buzzsaw) = 3-7
Jax (Heavy Weapons, Pumped up) = 4-6
Sonya (Covert Ops) = 5-5 --- (Demolition) = 4-6
Kenshi (Balanced) = 3-7
Kitana (Royal Storm) = 4-6
Scorpion (Inferno, Ninjustu, Inferno) = 4-6
Sub-Zero (Cryomancer) = 6-4 --- (Grandmaster) = 2-8
Mileena (Piercing, Ravenous) = 4-6
Takeda (Shirai Ryu) = 5-5
Cassie (Hollywood) = 3-7
Jaquie (Full-Auto) = 3.5/6.5
Kung Jin (Bojutsu, Shaolin) = 4-6
Shinnok (Necromancer, Impostor) = 4-6 --- (Boneshaper) = 3-7
Kano (Cybernetic) = 3.5-6.5 --- (Cutthroat) = 5-5
Erron Black (Outlaw, Marksman) = 4-6
Liu Kang (Flame fist, Dragon Fire) = 3-7
Ermac (Master Of Souls) = 4-6
Kotal Khan (War God) = 5-5
Reptile (Noxious) = 5-5
FerraTorr (Vicious) = 4-6
D'Vorah (Brood Mother) = 3.5-6.5
Raiden (Thunder God) = 3.5-6.5 --- (Teleporter) = 6-4
Quan Chi (Summoner) = 5-5
Goro (Kuatan Warrior, Dragon Fangs = 6-4
Jason (Relentless) = 5-5
Tanya (Kobu Jutsu) = 3-7
Predator = ?
Tremor = ?

This is extremely inaccurate in my opinion.

To start with - why do you think he loses to balanced kenshi 3-7? I think it's at worst 5-5.

Cage can punish whiffed teleflurry anywhere on the screen (run in f3, shadow kick, or ex shadow kick, depending on the distance). The rest of kenshis zoning is nothing terribly threatening either. Cage also punishes rising karma pretty well, goes at least even in the footsie game, and has infinitely better offense.

Cybernetic number is silly too. Kanos knife is one of the lowest damaging projectiles in the game - cage wins projectile trades by a wide margin. Then once you take away cyber Kanos zoning he's not left with anything that can compete with cage's tools.

 

[Asodimazze]

This is extremely inaccurate in my opinion.

To start with - why do you think he loses to balanced kenshi 3-7? I think it's at worst 5-5.

Cage can punish whiffed teleflurry anywhere on the screen (run in f3, shadow kick, or ex shadow kick, depending on the distance). The rest of kenshis zoning is nothing terribly threatening either. Cage also punishes rising karma pretty well, goes at least even in the footsie game, and has infinitely better offense.

Cybernetic number is silly too. Kanos knife is one of the lowest damaging projectiles in the game - cage wins projectile trades by a wide margin. Then once you take away cyber Kanos zoning he's not left with anything that can compete with cage's tools.

Nice to have some discussion ^^

Balanced Kenshi:

Kenshi can zone cage very well and if he limits the use of tele-flurry when Cage is midscreen, he will never get punished with run f3 combo.
From fullscreen the only punish is EX Shadowkick but burning a bar for that is not so good since after the knockdown Cage has to catch Kenshi again.

At midscreen distance Kenshi has great tools to deal with Cage, like d4 (which has better range than Cage d4), tele push, throws and EX Rising Karma to punish jump ins.

Is true that A-List generally has a better offense than Kenshi upclose, but you have to consider that against zoners Johnny is forced to use stamina just to get there...his pressure becomes weak because most of the time he can't cancel anything. The matchup is not even; 4-6 maybe.

-------------------------------------------

Cybernetic Kano:

Cybernetic's knives don't trade with forceballs, they are much faster and recover much faster too.
Johnny is forced to respect the knives and advance slowly, or burn a bar for EX Shadowkick; jumping the knives is out of the question, Cage jump is probably one of the worst in the game...getting close to Cybernetic Kano is very hard.

Kano can compete super fine upclose too: his pokes (expecially b1 and d4) are better than Cage ones and he has an armored starter to counter JC pressing too. This is a bad matchup from anywhere on the screen.

 

[Peckapowa]

Heyyy

Thought I would get the ball rolling on this!

Post thoughts on matchup specific tech/strategies, or ask for advice on specific matchups.

Played a really long set offline with a Grandmaster Subzero and a Lackey Ferra/Torr

Here's my thoughts thus far (still early to say anything definite about who's favor they are in, so keeping it to details i noticed for now)

Spoiler: GM SubZero

First off, I would recommend Stunt Double for this MU. Found out quickly trying to approach subzero with run cancel pressure meant running into ice clones, which was bad news bears. Instead, I found a slower, more methodical approach was needed. Hanging back just outside his footsie range is good; if he throws an errant ice ball, you can jump and maybe punish, if he tries to move forward you can intercept him with your better buttons (f3, f24, etc), and if he tries to set up an ice clone and try to zone you by sticking to his ground, yo can use your own cloned shadow kick to force him to block.

This leads me to the next detail i found important in this MU: keeping at least one clone at hand is very important. i found myself adjusting to never use two clones in a combo unless for kill because it was just too valuable in neutral and wakeup not to have. clone shadow kick actually goes throw the ice clone, which very few (if any?) other projectiles do. This gives you something to make him think about laying clones in neutral. Almost more importantly, you will want to keep a clone stocked in case you find yourself at the defensive end of an oki situation. Ice clone (particuarly in the corner) generally demands you respect SZ's pressure on your wakeup, but if you have a bar and a clone ex clone uppercut will force SZ to block, giving you time to retaliate. This is of course expensive, but can be super worth it to get out of a very bad situation.

JC outclasses SZ in both footsie and damage i feel, and small hits add up fast. SZ doesn't do very much damage and his string aren't the greatest, so if you can keep a midgame neutral game going and focus on never taking risks that mean you get knocked down, you should do a okay.

Spoiler: Lack F/T

Holy Moly does this guy hit like a truck. Has lots of move with armor, including one that doesn't involve meter burn. This made playing any kind of zoning game kind of risky, as it would let him get in,score a knockdown, and then start his pressure. Also, playing footsie at ranges I was comfortable with seemed dangerous. his low launcher (the scoop, pardon my lack of knowledge on notations) is really good, and he can confirm a solid amount of damage off of it. Between this and his fast, long range overhead that leads into big damage, he's pretty good at catching you by surprsise when you are trying to play your traditional neutral game.

The adjustment I made was always keeping him under up clsoe pressure. I would use my clones to get me there, and then try and be as unyielding as possible. Heads up tho; ya gotta respect his ex dp; safe on block and leads to lots of damage for Torr. this made oki kind of risky when they had resources to play with. I felt as if A List might be a better choice for this MU, since you can keep them lockdown more safely/more consistently.

hish qu ten wins 8-2

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Nice to have some discussion ^^

Balanced Kenshi:

Kenshi can zone cage very well and if he limits the use of tele-flurry when Cage is midscreen, he will never get punished with run f3 combo.
From fullscreen the only punish is EX Shadowkick but burning a bar for that is not so good since after the knockdown Cage has to catch Kenshi again.

At midscreen distance Kenshi has great tools to deal with Cage, like d4 (which has better range than Cage d4), tele push, throws and EX Rising Karma to punish jump ins.

Is true that A-List generally has a better offense than Kenshi upclose, but you have to consider that against zoners Johnny is forced to use stamina just to get there...his pressure becomes weak because most of the time he can't cancel anything. The matchup is not even; 4-6 maybe.

-------------------------------------------

Cybernetic Kano:

Cybernetic's knives don't trade with forceballs, they are much faster and recover much faster too.
Johnny is forced to respect the knives and advance slowly, or burn a bar for EX Shadowkick; jumping the knives is out of the question, Cage jump is probably one of the worst in the game...getting close to Cybernetic Kano is very hard.

Kano can compete super fine upclose too: his pokes (expecially b1 and d4) are better than Cage ones and he has an armored starter to counter JC pressing too. This is a bad matchup from anywhere on the screen.

I think Kenshi's zoning is extremely risky and people just aren't punishing it (the whiff recovery is awful). Anytime he does a teleflurry he's putting his ass on the line. And if he doesn't do teleflurries, then opponent's can just walk in, and Kenshi's options become run up grab, d4, telepush, etc. These are weak options compared to what other characters (including cage) have at footsie range. Kenshi's d4 does 3% - Cage's f3 has the exact same range as Kenshi's d4, and Cage's f3 is 2 frames faster and leads to much more than the Kenshi d4.

On Kano - Cybernetic's knives are much faster, I agree. However, if you block one knife as JC, you can get out a forceball before you get hit / have to block a second knife from kano. The 8% on JC's forceball exceeds the chip damage from the first blocked knife plus the damage from the second knife which you traded with. I'm pretty sure the zoning battle is even at worst. I agree that you shouldn't jump as cage, but blocked knives have very little pushback (unlike street fighter fireballs) - if you block and walk forward a couple times you are in footsie range. Once in footsie range - yes Kano has quick pokes with solid range, but I wouldn't say his options are better than Cage's. Cage's f3 significantly outranges Kano's b1 and d4 and leads to more. Then cage has much better pressure and mixups than Kano.

I'm not saying cage is amazing (or even great... I think he's mid tier) but these two matchups are 5-5 at worst man.

 

[Name v.5.0]

STUNT DOUBLE JOHNNY CAGE MU CHART

I went ahead and wrote this up last night. This is an early draft of the MU's I'm more comfortable showing. I have thoughts on others but I'm not sure about them. Hell, it's early and I'm not 100% sure about the ones posted. Let's just call this an early MU chart that is subject to change.

Jason
Relentless: 5-5
Slasher: 7-3
Unstoppable:

Kung Lao
Buzzsaw: 5-5
Tempest: 5-5
Hat Trick:

Jax
Heavy Weapons: 5-5
Pumped Up: 5-5
Wrestler: 5-5

Sonya
Covert Ops: 5-5
Demolition:
Special Forces: might be 4-6

Kenshi
Balanced: 5-5
Kenjitsu:
Possessed:

Kitana
Royal Storm: 5-5 (possible 4-6)
Assassin:
Mournful: 4-6

Scorpion
Ninjitsu:
Hellfire:
Inferno: 5-5

Sub Zero
Grand Master: 6-4
Cryomancer: 6-4
Unbreakable: In theory, this is the variation to use agains SDJC

Mileena
Ravenous: 5-5
Piercing: 5-5
Ethereal:

Takeda
Shirai Ryu: 5-5 (possible 6-4)
Lasher:
Ronin:

Cassie
Hollywood: 4-6 (would be 5-5 except all SDJC's normals whiff)
Brawler: 4-6 (same as above)
Spec Ops: 3-7 (should be 4-6...whiffing...)

Jacqui
Full Auto: 5-5
Shotgun:
High Tech:

Kung Jin
Bojitsu: 4-6
Shaolin:
Ancestral:

Tanya
Pyromancer: 5-5 (prepatch this was 3-7 if not 2-8. LoL)
Dragon Naginata:
Kobu Jutsu:

Predator
Hish Qu Ten:
Hunter:
Warrior:

Shinnok
Imposter: 4-6
Bone Shaper: 3-7
Necromancer:

Kano
Cutthroat: 5-5
Cybernetic: 5-5
Comanndo:

Johnny Cage
Stunt Double:
A-List:
Fisticuffs:

Erron Black
Outlaw: 5-5
Marksman: 5-5
Gunslinger:

Liu Kang
Dragon Fire: 4-6
Flame Fist: 4-6
Dualist:

Ermac
Master of Souls: 5-5
Mystic:
Spectral?: Couldnt even remember this variation

Kotal Kahn
War God: 5-5 (really want to lean to 6-4)
Sun God: 6-4
Blood God:

Reptile
All variations 5-5

Ferra/Torr
Lackey:
Vicious:
Ruthless:

Dvorah
Swarm Queen: 5-5
Venomous: Pretty sure it's 5-5
Brood Mother:

Raiden
Thunder God: 4-6
Displacer:
Master of Storms:

Quan Chi
Summoner: 5-5
Warlock:
Sorcerer:

Goro
Kuatan Warrior:
Tigrar Fury:
Dragon Fang:


Totals:

Wins: 4
Loses: 9
Even: 27


@Asodimazze @smokey @Mikemetroid .... I'm not even sure who to tag anymore

 

[crosstalk]

I feel like Aso is downplaying Cage and Name is upplaying him some haha. Somewhere in the middle is where I personally lie, at least with A-List. I feel his only terrible MUs in A-List are Cassie, Kung Lao, and Shinnok. GM Sub is more of a 4-6 I think - it's a MU that will take experience to get better at.

Overall I feel like characters with good zoning ability (Shinnok, QC, FF Liu Kang), good normals that outclass Cage in the neutral (Cassie, D'vorah, KJ, Tanya), good air mobility or air normals (KJ, Lao), fast reversals (Cassie, Lao), or characters that give Cage hitbox issues (Cassie, D'vorah) are potentially a bad MU. Moreso if they have a combination of those factors like Cassie, Kung Lao, or D'vorah. Characters like Summoner Quan or D'vorah could be worse if they didn't have poor defensive options. Cage's biggest weaknesses to me are:

- his dependency on basic movement to get around the more powerful zoning characters
- his lack of air control and good air-to-air normals
- his weakness in fighting characters that have normals that simply outclass his f3 or d4 in neutral, which I think are his most powerful tools in neutral
- his weakness in maintaining pressure against characters with fast reversals or safe armor options
- his weakness against small hitbox characters, where normals or specials are more likely to whiff

(A-List)
Disadvantage: Cassie, Kung Lao, Shinnok
Slight disadvantage: D'vorah, Erron Black, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Quan Chi, Sonya, Sub-Zero, Tanya
Even: Ermac, Ferra/Torr, Jax, Kenshi, Kitana (could be slight disadvantage), Mileena, Raiden, Scorpion
Slight advantage: Goro, Jason, Jacqui, Kano, Kotal Kahn, Reptile, Takeda

 

[Name v.5.0]

I feel like Aso is downplaying Cage and Name is upplaying him some haha. Somewhere in the middle is where I personally lie, at least with A-List. I feel his only terrible MUs in A-List are Cassie, Kung Lao, and Shinnok. GM Sub is more of a 4-6 I think - it's a MU that will take experience to get better at.

Overall I feel like characters with good zoning ability (Shinnok, QC, FF Liu Kang), good normals that outclass Cage in the neutral (Cassie, D'vorah, KJ, Tanya), good air mobility or air normals (KJ, Lao), fast reversals (Cassie, Lao), or characters that give Cage hitbox issues (Cassie, D'vorah) are potentially a bad MU. Moreso if they have a combination of those factors like Cassie, Kung Lao, or D'vorah. Characters like Summoner Quan or D'vorah could be worse if they didn't have poor defensive options. Cage's biggest weaknesses to me are:

- his dependency on basic movement to get around the more powerful zoning characters
- his lack of air control and good air-to-air normals
- his weakness in fighting characters that have normals that simply outclass his f3 in neutral
- his weakness in maintaining pressure against characters with fast reversals or safe armor options
- his weakness against small hitbox characters, where normals or specials are more likely to whiff

(A-List)
Disadvantage: Cassie, Kung Lao, Shinnok
Slight disadvantage: D'vorah, Erron Black, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Quan Chi, Sonya, Sub-Zero, Tanya
Even: Ermac, Ferra/Torr, Jax, Kenshi, Kitana (could be slight disadvantage), Mileena, Raiden, Scorpion
Slight advantage: Goro, Jason, Jacqui, Kano, Kotal Kahn, Reptile, Takeda

Its funny how the clones in SD can really change a MU. GM Sub is a great example.

Overall though, JC in any variation will end up having more losing MUs than winning. I'm really getting to the point where I feel JC is bottom mid tier.

 

[crosstalk]

Its funny how the clones in SD can really change a MU. GM Sub is a great example.

Overall though, JC in any variation will end up having more losing MUs than winning. I'm really getting to the point where I feel JC is bottom mid tier.

Yeah I can definitely see some MUs changing with SD. I feel the same way. He can definitely manage in tournaments but it'll be a hard path. I'd put him in low mid as well.

 

[11411181]

SD vs War God KK has an easy way to bait EX OSS reversals/armour gaps with 113xxDB1 even on block. Considering how critical that move is to making War God viable - the moment you can make an opponent second-guess using it out of hand definitely puts the match back in SDJC's favour.

EDIT: without mimic active.

 

[Asodimazze]

I feel like Aso is downplaying Cage and Name is upplaying him some haha. Somewhere in the middle is where I personally lie, at least with A-List. I feel his only terrible MUs in A-List are Cassie, Kung Lao, and Shinnok. GM Sub is more of a 4-6 I think - it's a MU that will take experience to get better at.

Overall I feel like characters with good zoning ability (Shinnok, QC, FF Liu Kang), good normals that outclass Cage in the neutral (Cassie, D'vorah, KJ, Tanya), good air mobility or air normals (KJ, Lao), fast reversals (Cassie, Lao), or characters that give Cage hitbox issues (Cassie, D'vorah) are potentially a bad MU. Moreso if they have a combination of those factors like Cassie, Kung Lao, or D'vorah. Characters like Summoner Quan or D'vorah could be worse if they didn't have poor defensive options. Cage's biggest weaknesses to me are:

- his dependency on basic movement to get around the more powerful zoning characters
- his lack of air control and good air-to-air normals
- his weakness in fighting characters that have normals that simply outclass his f3 or d4 in neutral, which I think are his most powerful tools in neutral
- his weakness in maintaining pressure against characters with fast reversals or safe armor options
- his weakness against small hitbox characters, where normals or specials are more likely to whiff

(A-List)
Disadvantage: Cassie, Kung Lao, Shinnok
Slight disadvantage: D'vorah, Erron Black, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Quan Chi, Sonya, Sub-Zero, Tanya
Even: Ermac, Ferra/Torr, Jax, Kenshi, Kitana (could be slight disadvantage), Mileena, Raiden, Scorpion
Slight advantage: Goro, Jason, Jacqui, Kano, Kotal Kahn, Reptile, Takeda

Some of the matchups would be better if Cage didn't have hitbox problems, but in the current situation he has issues against all the roster, except Predator, Jason and Goro. S1 whiffing against low blocking opponents is atrocius, kills way too many options.
Against small characters or characters that go particularly low when ducking you whiff when using half of your normals...and it is not a small list: Kung Lao, Sonya, Kitana, Scorpion, Cassie, Mileena, Tanya, Jaqui, Kano, Reptile, D'vorah, Sub-Zero.

Almost nobody knows the Cage matchup at the moment; if the opponent studies Johnny well and on top of his already big weaknesses he also exploits his whiffing problems, Johnny is done for. Being forced to play every game with only f3, f24 and d4 is absolutely crippling.
How many times I've seen people get hit by a delayed nut punch after blocking the first hit? No one knows they can armor through or backdash lol. People are just unprepared...
If he doesn't get fixed he is bottom 5, only Goro and Tremor might be worse. Jason relentless is a better character than Cage after the last patch.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Some of the matchups would be better if Cage didn't have hitbox problems, but in the current situation he has issues against all the roster, except Predator, Jason and Goro. S1 whiffing against low blocking opponents is atrocius, kills way too many options.
Against small characters or characters that go particularly low when ducking you whiff when using half of your normals...and it is not a small list: Kung Lao, Sonya, Kitana, Scorpion, Cassie, Mileena, Tanya, Jaqui, Kano, Reptile, D'vorah, Sub-Zero.

Almost nobody knows the Cage matchup at the moment; if the opponent studies Johnny well and top of his already big weaknesses he also exploits his whiffing problems, Johnny is done for. Being forced to play every game with only f3, f24 and d4 is absolutely crippling.
How many times I've seen people get hit by a delayed nut punch after blocking the first hit? No one knows they can armor through or backdash lol. People are just unprepared...
If he doesn't get fixed he is bottom 5, only Goro and Tremor might be worse. Jason relentless is a better character than Cage after the last patch.

I dont know that it's quite as dire as you make it sound....at least not for SDJC. I regularly play against people who know the MU that play as Pyro Tanya, Full Auto Jaqui, Buzzsaw/Tempest Kung Lao AND Grand Master Sub Zero. The matches still come down to reads more than anything else. Except the GM Sub Zero MU. That's totally in Johnny's favor.

It's just funny how so many characters got really cool stuff, and then JC has so few tools and many issues. Even if you take out the whiffing it'll be an uphill battle for any player in tournament.

 

[Scott The Scot]

@Hawfy What's your opinion on this matchup chart?

STUNT DOUBLE JOHNNY CAGE MU CHART

I went ahead and wrote this up last night. This is an early draft of the MU's I'm more comfortable showing. I have thoughts on others but I'm not sure about them. Hell, it's early and I'm not 100% sure about the ones posted. Let's just call this an early MU chart that is subject to change.

Jason
Relentless: 5-5
Slasher: 7-3
Unstoppable:

Kung Lao
Buzzsaw: 5-5
Tempest: 5-5
Hat Trick:

Jax
Heavy Weapons: 5-5
Pumped Up: 5-5
Wrestler: 5-5

Sonya
Covert Ops: 5-5
Demolition:
Special Forces: might be 4-6

Kenshi
Balanced: 5-5
Kenjitsu:
Possessed:

Kitana
Royal Storm: 5-5 (possible 4-6)
Assassin:
Mournful: 4-6

Scorpion
Ninjitsu:
Hellfire:
Inferno: 5-5

Sub Zero
Grand Master: 6-4
Cryomancer: 6-4
Unbreakable: In theory, this is the variation to use agains SDJC

Mileena
Ravenous: 5-5
Piercing: 5-5
Ethereal:

Takeda
Shirai Ryu: 5-5 (possible 6-4)
Lasher:
Ronin:

Cassie
Hollywood: 4-6 (would be 5-5 except all SDJC's normals whiff)
Brawler: 4-6 (same as above)
Spec Ops: 3-7 (should be 4-6...whiffing...)

Jacqui
Full Auto: 5-5
Shotgun:
High Tech:

Kung Jin
Bojitsu: 4-6
Shaolin:
Ancestral:

Tanya
Pyromancer: 5-5 (prepatch this was 3-7 if not 2-8. LoL)
Dragon Naginata:
Kobu Jutsu:

Predator
Hish Qu Ten:
Hunter:
Warrior:

Shinnok
Imposter: 4-6
Bone Shaper: 3-7
Necromancer:

Kano
Cutthroat: 5-5
Cybernetic: 5-5
Comanndo:

Johnny Cage
Stunt Double:
A-List:
Fisticuffs:

Erron Black
Outlaw: 5-5
Marksman: 5-5
Gunslinger:

Liu Kang
Dragon Fire: 4-6
Flame Fist: 4-6
Dualist:

Ermac
Master of Souls: 5-5
Mystic:
Spectral?: Couldnt even remember this variation

Kotal Kahn
War God: 5-5 (really want to lean to 6-4)
Sun God: 6-4
Blood God:

Reptile
All variations 5-5

Ferra/Torr
Lackey:
Vicious:
Ruthless:

Dvorah
Swarm Queen: 5-5
Venomous: Pretty sure it's 5-5
Brood Mother:

Raiden
Thunder God: 4-6
Displacer:
Master of Storms:

Quan Chi
Summoner: 5-5
Warlock:
Sorcerer:

Goro
Kuatan Warrior:
Tigrar Fury:
Dragon Fang:


Totals:

Wins: 4
Loses: 9
Even: 27


@Asodimazze @smokey @Mikemetroid .... I'm not even sure who to tag anymore

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Hahah it's exactly how i predicted it would be, everyone was uplaying cage and what not and then seeing michaelangelo and DJT in tournament really brought on the uplaying lol

The fact is JC is pretty bad, and it's mostly because of glitches not his toolset.

Not that he couldn't get a boost in the toolset department though. The fact is that everyone on TYM has the don't "whine for buffs attitude and get gud skrub" mentality which clouds judgment on certain things.

The kenshi players did not give a fuck about this mentality.

The Kitana players did not give a fuck about this mentality.

People made fun of them for whining all day and you know what happened? They said fuck you and still got what they wanted lol.

Now we are on patch 4 and not only did johnny cage pretty much NEVER get touched(they say they fixed his mids but this was not true) he got NERFED lol.

So much for pride right? Good on us! We JC players don't need buffs! We don't need anything HE IZ FINE THE WAY HE IS!

*switches to another character*

 

[Hawfy]

@Hawfy What's your opinion on this matchup chart?

I don't play SD as much as A-List but i feel hes slightly uplayed in this list i would say kotal beats cage & GM feels like a 7-3 to me lol but its still early & i need to lab alot of stuff.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I don't play SD as much as A-List but i feel hes slightly uplayed in this list i would say kotal beats cage & GM feels like a 7-3 to me lol but its still early & i need to lab alot of stuff.

It's ok, I also feel it's slightly up played. LOL.

I'm fairly on the fence about matchups like Dvorah and Erron Black...but they seem to come down to reads more than anything else and if that's the case I have to go 5-5.

GMSZ I'm sure is losing for Sub. He basically has no options that Cage cant counter depending on meter and mimic management. Sub's clone can almost be completely nullified.

I can elaborate further if on all MUs i posted if anyone wants.

 

[Asodimazze]

It's ok, I also feel it's slightly up played. LOL.

I'm fairly on the fence about matchups like Dvorah and Erron Black...but they seem to come down to reads more than anything else and if that's the case I have to go 5-5.

GMSZ I'm sure is losing for Sub. He basically has no options that Cage cant counter depending on meter and mimic management. Sub's clone can almost be completely nullified.

I can elaborate further if on all MUs i posted if anyone wants.

With A-List, I feel that the Grandmaster matchup is nearly impossible.
Only way to beat the clone is EX Shadow Kick, and even that is not so useful because Sub has a million ways to counter it...If you end up in the corner the match is over lol.

Probably the worst matchup for A-List

 

[Name v.5.0]

With A-List, I feel that the Grandmaster matchup is nearly impossible.
Only way to beat the clone is EX Shadow Kick, and even that is not so useful because Sub has a million ways to counter it...If you end up in the corner the match is over lol.

Probably the worst matchup for A-List

This is where the mimics come in handy.

I can imagine Hunter Predator being awfully hard for A-List as well. Is that the case?

 

[crosstalk]

This is where the mimics come in handy.

I can imagine Hunter Predator being awfully hard for A-List as well. Is that the case?

I can see Hunter and HQT becoming bad MUs for Cage in the future. Predator doesn't seem to have the best defense though so they might not be terrible, but I haven't played against him too much.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I can see Hunter and HQT becoming bad MUs for Cage in the future. Predator doesn't seem to have the best defense though so they might not be terrible, but I haven't played against him too much.

I've been messing with Predator and one thing I can say across all variations is that he cant wake up (everyone knows this). If Johnny does a well timed 1,2 it breaks his armor. If it's timed perfectly you can catch him airborne and convert it into a combo. That's bad news for Predator considering Johnny, despite being "bad", is one hell of a good pressure character.

 

[Hawfy]

I've been messing with Predator and one thing I can say across all variations is that he cant wake up (everyone knows this). If Johnny does a well timed 1,2 it breaks his armor. If it's timed perfectly you can catch him airborne and convert it into a combo. That's bad news for Predator considering Johnny, despite being "bad", is one hell of a good pressure character.

yeah in A-list you can 12[1]DASH, 12[1]DASH, 113 NUT.

 

[Asodimazze]

This is where the mimics come in handy.

I can imagine Hunter Predator being awfully hard for A-List as well. Is that the case?

Here is what I think after my few experiences against Predator (I also use Predator myself, know him pretty well).

Hunter needs to start his setup game somehow, throwing out a trap after a string on block is very risky for him. Before putting a trap on screen he has to win in neutral.
His neutral game, doesn't look too great against Cage: b22 is high so Cage d4 beats it everytime; Predator d4 has great range but is too minus on block, Cage can get him with a fast f3 and put pressure on him.
Even when the trap is out, Cage can still play around that in various ways (jump over, hit predator with a forceball or something, etc..)....ice clones are a bigger problem.

HQT on the other way, is able to zone Cage easily, has great offensive mixup, better footsie tools.
His D4 becomes safe because he can do D4xxLasercancel or D4xxLowLaser, any string can become safe thanks to the cancels, he is also very plus on some string like 32xxLaserCancel, which is around + 10.
A very bad matchup imho, 3-7 probably

 

[rafaw]

In the Sub GM MU, SD is just the way to go A list suffers a lot in that MU.