Match-Up Discussion - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage Matchup Thread

[smokey]

@Name v.5.0 - Just some notes i have to help in tanya matchup and training against her.
Tanya is firstly a test on your defense and reactions. When you learn to block her you are pretty much just waiting for her to do something unsafe or run out of meter, she can only really throw you and can only stay safe for so long if she wants to combo you. If she jumps in at you or lands a poke or you get restood in combo by rekka2 then just block low, and stand up for the overhead off her b1. Remember just the block pattern low,OH,low and then stay low for her EX spiral on any other string which is a low launcher but very unsafe. Her overhead and EX version are both not worth getting launched for as they just give her a knockdown and like 10% damage.

Her difficult block pressure then only comes from her delayed rekka game so go practice and learn how it works, look out for delayed ones that can be armoured or tight ones which 3rd hit can be punished.
If you respect everything then shes gonna do 1 or 2 rekka swipes stagger into another blockstring, so learn to recognise that and poke or backdash or even just start your own pressure if you think shes not doing that third hit. She is only ever -frames after rekkas but she can armour/counterpoke so her EX swipe after a blocked rekka is a frametrap (luckily it only has 1 hit of armour this month, so you can break with 1,2 if you get it on point).
-Learn in practice when you can punish her and when she has delayed so you cant, and also see how long she has to delay so you recognise when the next hit isnt coming at all.

Tonfa throw and teleport cancel arent that big of a deal when you know how to block her, shes not hugely + so you can armour if you make the read, but shes just going back in to block pressure every time if you sit still and watch her do it, so you need to actually be reactive some times.

Neutral game you watch out for her f2 and play to it with your d4 and f3 range, walking back is good as outside of f2 her normals have crap range, her pokes arent that special either range wise. D4 is god in this(every) matchup when shes trying to work her way in on you, so just play to neutral that way and try not to let her close on her own terms (try not to get into her block pressure if you can help it, or get out fast if you can). Watch out for her randomly doing air spiral kicks and the low version when she jumps/teleports near you and the odd wakeup.

On offence you do cage things except in the corner watch for her teleport. Its not invincible and you can generally hit her out of it, and if she does a move out of it then its gonna be unsafe or really -, try not to let her out for free but really it can be hard.

Also just a note that Kobu online shaves off the 5-10 frames of seeing/reacting/interrupting that you generally need to deal with her rekka staggering. b12+4 into rekkas back into b1 isnt that big of a deal if you have some idea of the time she has to delay the rekka and recognise its not coming, online thats not the case so prepare your anus.

edit: formatting is terrible (it still is just a wall of text sorry about that)

 

[Name v.5.0]

@Name v.5.0 - Just some notes i have to help in tanya matchup and training against her.
Tanya is firstly a test on your defense and reactions. When you learn to block her you are pretty much just waiting for her to do something unsafe or run out of meter, she can only really throw you and can only stay safe for so long if she wants to combo you. If she jumps in at you or lands a poke or you get restood in combo by rekka2 then just block low, and stand up for the overhead off her b1. Remember just the block pattern low,OH,low and then stay low for her EX spiral on any other string which is a low launcher but very unsafe. Her overhead and EX version are both not worth getting launched for as they just give her a knockdown and like 10% damage.

Her difficult block pressure then only comes from her delayed rekka game so go practice and learn how it works, look out for delayed ones that can be armoured or tight ones which 3rd hit can be punished.
If you respect everything then shes gonna do 1 or 2 rekka swipes stagger into another blockstring, so learn to recognise that and poke or backdash or even just start your own pressure if you think shes not doing that third hit. She is only ever -frames after rekkas but she can armour/counterpoke so her EX swipe after a blocked rekka is a frametrap (luckily it only has 1 hit of armour this month, so you can break with 1,2 if you get it on point).
-Learn in practice when you can punish her and when she has delayed so you cant, and also see how long she has to delay so you recognise when the next hit isnt coming at all.

Tonfa throw and teleport cancel arent that big of a deal when you know how to block her, shes not hugely + so you can armour if you make the read, but shes just going back in to block pressure every time if you sit still and watch her do it, so you need to actually be reactive some times.

Neutral game you watch out for her f2 and play to it with your d4 and f3 range, walking back is good as outside of f2 her normals have crap range, her pokes arent that special either range wise. D4 is god in this(every) matchup when shes trying to work her way in on you, so just play to neutral that way and try not to let her close on her own terms (try not to get into her block pressure if you can help it, or get out fast if you can). Watch out for her randomly doing air spiral kicks and the low version when she jumps/teleports near you and the odd wakeup.

On offence you do cage things except in the corner watch for her teleport. Its not invincible and you can generally hit her out of it, and if she does a move out of it then its gonna be unsafe or really -, try not to let her out for free but really it can be hard.

Also just a note that Kobu online shaves off the 5-10 frames of seeing/reacting/interrupting that you generally need to deal with her rekka staggering. b12+4 into rekkas back into b1 isnt that big of a deal if you have some idea of the time she has to delay the rekka and recognise its not coming, online thats not the case so prepare your anus.

edit: formatting is terrible (it still is just a wall of text sorry about that)

Your post basically mirrors my experience. I feel like i have a pretty good understanding as to when i'm supposed to be able to poke or armor. I know the MU at least that well, and I have no issues in the neutral. The thing is that I have no one locally who plays Kobu Jutsu, so all my experience comes from online where I'm getting demolished up close. You basically have to guess when to poke.

You answered my questions of "Is the MU possible online" with "prepare your anus." Now I know. The bitch is S tier online.

Thanks for replying!

 

[smokey]

Your post basically mirrors my experience. I feel like i have a pretty good understanding as to when i'm supposed to be able to poke or armor. I know the MU at least that well, and I have no issues in the neutral. The thing is that I have no one locally who plays Kobu Jutsu, so all my experience comes from online where I'm getting demolished up close. You basically have to guess when to poke.

You answered my questions of "Is the MU possible online" with "prepare your anus." Now I know. The bitch is S tier online.

Thanks for replying!

Even if you are just guessing offline you have more time to do it, and youre less likely to get blown up on a correct guess like online.
Its not the easiest thing in the world to defend against because it is designed so the mix up is more about you second guessing your punish options and holding block for too long so she can rinse repeat until you take a risk. As long as you know the mindgame and yours and her options during her block pressure you shouldnt be getting overwhelmed. Sounds like you are just having problems getting buttons out on time, which can be hard when shes using a 9 frame mid that hits twice at like -4 or something.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Even if you are just guessing offline you have more time to do it, and youre less likely to get blown up on a correct guess like online.
Its not the easiest thing in the world to defend against because it is designed so the mix up is more about you second guessing your punish options and holding block for too long so she can rinse repeat until you take a risk. As long as you know the mindgame and yours and her options during her block pressure you shouldnt be getting overwhelmed. Sounds like you are just having problems getting buttons out on time, which can be hard when shes using a 9 frame mid that hits twice at like -4 or something.

Right. I'll try to hit a gap, and bam, she sticks a tonfa up my ass. I'd love to play against her offline one day. It'd do wonders for my confidence against her.

 

[IrishMantis]

You love fighting her too huh?

She's difficult because her F2 will beat F3 in the trade, he needs to make a read on her trip guard because off her air specials, he cant throw fireballs because of her tele that even punishes him, it's also hard for JC to activate mimics in the match because off her get in and out whenever she wants meta.

Then when it comes to her rekka stagger by the time you notice she staggered it the best you can do is a 8 frame D1 for the best chance of hitting because if you try 11 she can d1 under it, if she blocks your d1 she goes again you can say the same for JC but no mimics = very limited pressure, armour is risky and obvious because of her 2 hit armour crush like any other char, and even if she doesn't stagger and goes for the complete rekka because of pushback your reversal nut punch doesn't reach, she's -12 after it so you can only get a reversal shadow kick(so much dmg wow) or a 1 frame F3 punish(because of the frame loss over blocking for normals)

JC SD can't zone her, struggles to play footsie with her because of her F2 and air dominance, can't trip guard her the only tools he has left is pressure and mind games with her, and even then he can't be too comfortable with pressure.

S1 goes over her head as it's a small hurtbox issue.
When he knocks her down he cant use okie too much because of her multiple wake ups you need to respect ( this with most chars too in fairness)

2 things I want to point out I haven't played her since the patch . So some stuff can be changed which I doubt and secondly I am no way downplaying SD Johnny as I think the variation and chat is really good.

I just feel this MU is bad for SD. Although in theory AList should cope better.

 

[Name v.5.0]

She's difficult because her F2 will beat F3 in the trade, he needs to make a read on her trip guard because off her air specials, he cant throw fireballs because of her tele that even punishes him, it's also hard for JC to activate mimics in the match because off her get in and out whenever she wants meta.

Then when it comes to her rekka stagger by the time you notice she staggered it the best you can do is a 8 frame D1 for the best chance of hitting because if you try 11 she can d1 under it, if she blocks your d1 she goes again you can say the same for JC but no mimics = very limited pressure, armour is risky and obvious because of her 2 hit armour crush like any other char, and even if she doesn't stagger and goes for the complete rekka because of pushback your reversal nut punch doesn't reach, she's -12 after it so you can only get a reversal shadow kick(so much dmg wow) or a 1 frame F3 punish(because of the frame loss over blocking for normals)

JC SD can't zone her, struggles to play footsie with her because of her F2 and air dominance, can't trip guard her the only tools he has left is pressure and mind games with her, and even then he can't be too comfortable with pressure.

S1 goes over her head as it's a small hurtbox issue.
When he knocks her down he cant use okie too much because of her multiple wake ups you need to respect ( this with most chars too in fairness)

2 things I want to point out I haven't played her since the patch . So some stuff can be changed which I doubt and secondly I am no way downplaying SD Johnny as I think the variation and chat is really good.

I just feel this MU is bad for SD. Although in theory AList should cope better.

I dont feel like footsies are too bad at all. Eventually she gets in though, and that's when it all falls apart. I can actually block her bullshit all day long, it's getting out that's hard. chip, chip, chip, chip, dead.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I appreciate the Kobu Jutsu info, but I'm more interested in SG Kotal. Again. I understand a lot about his strings and poking and tick throws. Common knowledge isnt the problem I'm having.I always thought War God was really good, but there's weakness in his sword attacks because you can backdash and armor, but Sun God doesn't actually share that weakness. Not exactly. I feel like he may be better in the SDJC matchup. Sun God post patch is a serious JC threat.

 

[Asodimazze]

Tanya is just bullshit.
When she gets in, you have to take a blind guess about when she will interrupt pressure and try to escape with backdash or armor or counterpoke. Both 3 options are EXTREMELY risky and the guessing game favours the Tanya player.
A good solution that was suggested to me by @Zoidberg747 is also a reversal throw when she staggers...works quite well, but that's also a guess.
Since she is the one that decides when you have the chance to escape, the Tanya player will dictate the pace for the whole match.

Her safe armor reversal is ridicolous, but thanks to the patch she has just 1 hit of armor with A-List and is now possible to stuff EX rekka using a well timed 12.
Her tele cancels are not broken anymore, but still leave her at advantage. Tanya hitbox is also a problem because Cage s1,s2,s3,s4 still whiff against her when she is duck blocking...be careful.

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I never played against Sun God after the patch, but my general strategy vs Kotal is this:

Zone him as much as possible, A-List forceballs work very well against him because of his big hitbox. You don't want to play footsies against him.
Throw forceballs until he has a chance to reach you with a jump in punch or f2, and then react accordingly to your player intentions, baiting his options. Rush in only when you are sure you will touch him with f3 and put pressure on him.
D4 works quite well against Kotal too. Abuse it

Play lame, don't let him get close.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Tanya is just bullshit.
When she gets in, you have to take a blind guess about when she will interrupt pressure and try to escape with backdash or armor or counterpoke. Both 3 options are EXTREMELY risky and the guessing game favours the Tanya player.
A good solution that was suggested to me by @Zoidberg747 is also a reversal throw when she staggers...works quite well, but that's also a guess.
Since she is the one that decides when you have the chance to escape, the Tanya player will dictate the pace for the whole match.

Her safe armor reversal is ridicolous, but thanks to the patch she has just 1 hit of armor with A-List and is now possible to stuff EX rekka using a well timed 12.
Her tele cancels are not broken anymore, but still leave her at advantage. Tanya hitbox is also a problem because Cage s1,s2,s3,s4 still whiff against her when she is duck blocking...be careful.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never played against Sun God after the patch, but my general strategy vs Kotal is this:

Zone him as much as possible, A-List forceballs work very well against him because of his big hitbox. You don't want to play footsies against him.
Throw forceballs until he has a chance to reach you with a jump in punch or f2, and then react accordingly to your player intentions, baiting his options. Rush in only when you are sure you will touch him with f3 and put pressure on him.
D4 works quite well against Kotal too. Abuse it

Play lame, don't let him get close.

Yeah, sounds like you play Kotal the same way I do. Fuck...there's gotta be something more. SDJC's forceball is too risky to spam against him. And reloading mimics can be dangerous...I guess I'll keep labbing

You know what really pisses me off is Kotal has a few strings that leave him -1 or -2...which means he can still d1 or d4 you after. If you take no risks against him, consider yourself grabbed for 20%. If you're on PSN, look for a guy named Blikkis. He's got a fucking MEAN Sun God. Not sure if he's on TYM.

 

[IrishMantis]

I dont feel like footsies are too bad at all. Eventually she gets in though, and that's when it all falls apart. I can actually block her bullshit all day long, it's getting out that's hard. chip, chip, chip, chip, dead.

Your prolly right but she's not in a bad place in his F3 range

I know I made it sound terrible but it cod be just a 6 - 4 but in pretty sure it's a bad MU

 

[Asodimazze]

Yeah, sounds like you play Kotal the same way I do. Fuck...there's gotta be something more. SDJC's forceball is too risky to spam against him. And reloading mimics can be dangerous...I guess I'll keep labbing

You know what really pisses me off is Kotal has a few strings that leave him -1 or -2...which means he can still d1 or d4 you after. If you take no risks against him, consider yourself grabbed for 20%. If you're on PSN, look for a guy named Blikkis. He's got a fucking MEAN Sun God. Not sure if he's on TYM.

I see you're from Iowa...unfortunately I'm Italian, I play on PSN EU.
If any european with a good Kotal wants to play, I'll organize a set and post it on my Cage Match page: http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/cage-match.55433/

 

[IrishMantis]

I see you're from Iowa...unfortunately I'm Italian, I play on PSN EU.
If any european with a good Kotal wants to play, I'll organize a set and post it on my Cage Match page: http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/cage-match.55433/

There is one in my friends but I do okay against Kotal

In general I feel any char that has a D4 that's hits and recovers fast gives JC trouble as it trouble his D4 and F3 game

 

[rafaw]

Yesterday i played a lot vs a good KK sun god, i got so frustrated with those comand grabs, how do we counter that? let go block dont work, we cant tech the throw, we cant armor... i didnt have time to hit the lab and explore the options tho.

 

[Asodimazze]

Yesterday i played a lot vs a good KK sun god, i got so frustrated with those comand grabs, how do we counter that? let go block dont work, we cant tech the throw, we cant armor... i didnt have time to hit the lab and explore the options tho.

Yesterday I played many games against Sun God too, I won't upload anything because they were casuals but I believe the matchup is in A-List favour.

Zoning works quite well, Kotal hitbox is so big that he has to block at least 2-3 times before having any chance to catch Johnny; he can parry our projectiles and heal some of his life back or throw out a buffed EX projectile, but you can usually block that.

Upclose he is strong, but you can armor his thick throw setups. Don't try to low profile his shoulder move (don' know the command lol), because d4 won't work. Keep your distance right and this matchup is doable.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Yesterday i played a lot vs a good KK sun god, i got so frustrated with those comand grabs, how do we counter that? let go block dont work, we cant tech the throw, we cant armor... i didnt have time to hit the lab and explore the options tho.

I posted about this MU yesterday! I also labbed him hard.

The command grab can be linked of everything on block. Let me guess, you got hit a lot by B1~grab and D1 into grab? You CAN actually armor through, but if you know it's coming, you can actually cross over jump punch him into full combo. Dont waste the meter if you dont have to. The only thing you need to watch out for is block strings into air throw. If you jump while he does that he will juggle your ass.

B1 can be problematic for Kotals. B1~grab isnt hit confirmable. B1,2,2 isnt cancellable into grab and leaves them at -10 on block, which you can punish with a 1,1 combo if you figure out the weird block stun. B1,4~grab is incredibly unsafe...That leaves B1,2~grab. So really you need to read your opponent. You have to make a read and punish accordingly. Which version does he favor? I personally am going to jump over the first B1 I see...If the rest of the Kotal string comes out and hits me, I dont care. Odds are he wont be able to convert it. If he moves onto B1,2~grab, I'll use armor.

In all reality, it's unwise to be up close and personal with Sun God. I really do believe he wins up close. Zone him out.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Yesterday I played many games against Sun God too, I won't upload anything because they were casuals but I believe the matchup is in A-List favour.

Zoning works quite well, Kotal hitbox is so big that he has to block at least 2-3 times before having any chance to catch Johnny; he can parry our projectiles and heal some of his life back or throw out a buffed EX projectile, but you can usually block that.

Upclose he is strong, but you can armor his thick throw setups. Don't try to low profile his shoulder move (don' know the command lol), because d4 won't work. Keep your distance right and this matchup is doable.

Dont block his projectile. D4 under it like a boss.

 

[rafaw]

Yesterday I played many games against Sun God too, I won't upload anything because they were casuals but I believe the matchup is in A-List favour.

Zoning works quite well, Kotal hitbox is so big that he has to block at least 2-3 times before having any chance to catch Johnny; he can parry our projectiles and heal some of his life back or throw out a buffed EX projectile, but you can usually block that.

Upclose he is strong, but you can armor his thick throw setups. Don't try to low profile his shoulder move (don' know the command lol), because d4 won't work. Keep your distance right and this matchup is doable.

Yeah i could fight him in general, was just frustrated by those fucking grabs lol!
Good to know we can armor out tho. His projectile can be low profiled with d4 easily

I posted about this MU yesterday! I also labbed him hard.

The command grab can be linked of everything on block. Let me guess, you got hit a lot by B1~grab and D1 into grab? You CAN actually armor through, but if you know it's coming, you can actually cross over jump punch him into full combo. Dont waste the meter if you dont have to. The only thing you need to watch out for is block strings into air throw. If you jump while he does that he will juggle your ass.

B1 can be problematic for Kotals. B1~grab isnt hit confirmable. B1,2,2 isnt cancellable and leaves them at -10, which you can punish with a 1,1 combo if you figure out the weird block stun. B1,4~grab is incredibly unsafe...That leaves B1,2~grab. So really you need to read your opponent. You have to make a read and punish accordingly. Which version does he favor? I personally am going to jump over the first B1 I see...If the rest of the Kotal string comes out and hits me, I dont care. Odds are he wont be able to convert it. If he moves onto B1,2~grab, I'll use armor.

In all reality, it's unwise to be up close and personal with Sun God. I really do believe he wins up close. Zone him out.

Very nice inputs, Tks! I Took a lot of those D1xxGrab, D3xxGrab and B1xxGrab... if we can armor, cross over or njp him its really nice.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Yeah i could fight him in general, was just frustrated by those fucking grabs lol!
Good to know we can armor out tho. His projectile can be low profiled with d4 easily



Very nice inputs, Tks! I Took a lot of those D1xxGrab, D3xxGrab and B1xxGrab... if we can armor, cross over or njp him its really nice.

I forgot. If you see him do B1~sunstone(his EX-projectile), armor out on reaction to the sun stone. He can chip you to death if you have no meter with:

B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab

He's plus that whole time...

There is no way out other than armoring through Sunstone. He can build so much god damn meter, and do something like 40% on block followed by a tick through option.

 

[rafaw]

I forgot. If you see him do B1~sunstone(his EX-projectile), armor out on reaction to the sun stone. He can chip you to death if you have no meter with:

B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab

He's plus that whole time...

There is no way out other than armoring through Sunstone. He can build so much god damn meter, and do something like 40% on block followed by a tick through option.

Wow, what if he get someone without meter? Might be some broke shit right there.

 

[Killer Xinok]

I forgot. If you see him do B1~sunstone(his EX-projectile), armor out on reaction to the sun stone. He can chip you to death if you have no meter with:

B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab, B1~Sunstone, 114~air grab

He's plus that whole time...

There is no way out other than armoring through Sunstone. He can build so much god damn meter, and do something like 40% on block followed by a tick through option.

I haven't tested yet, but can't we neutral crouch the 1? in the string 114.. then you get up and do a full combo.. Kinda risky tho

 

[Name v.5.0]

Wow, what if he get someone without meter? Might be some broke shit right there.

If this happens, it's better to take the hit to get out. Kind of like SDJC's 3,3,3~EXMRS.

I haven't tested yet, but can't we neutral crouch the 1? in the string 114.. then you get up and do a full combo.. Kinda risky tho

From what I understand, You can poke out if you have a 6 frame attack. Johnny does not have this. Haha. JC's back dash also doesnt escape the B1.

 

[smokey]

If this happens, it's better to take the hit to get out. Kind of like SDJC's 3,3,3~EXMRS.



From what I understand, You can poke out if you have a 6 frame attack. Johnny does not have this. Haha. JC's back dash also doesnt escape the B1.

You cant poke with cage and i dont think ANYONE can backdash. You have to armour out or take a hit, though he actually has a hit box issue on 114 so you can just duck the first 2 hits sometimes even when you are jailed, if you have watermelon testicles and dont mind risking 30% then just try D1 after the sunstone. Meterless you dont have a great deal of options.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Here is Qwark breaking down the block string horse shit I was talking about.

 

[Killer Xinok]

From what I understand, You can poke out if you have a 6 frame attack. Johnny does not have this. Haha. JC's back dash also doesnt escape the B1.

But when he does b1 sun stone 114 , the 1 is High, so you can neutral crouch it. isn't it? it's not a mid hit

 

[Name v.5.0]

You cant poke with cage and i dont think ANYONE can backdash. You have to armour out or take a hit, though he actually has a hit box issue on 114 so you can just duck the first 2 hits sometimes even when you are jailed, if you have watermelon testicles and dont mind risking 30% then just try D1 after the sunstone. Meterless you dont have a great deal of options.

I thought that 114 hitbox issue was patched. Was it not?