Match-Up Discussion - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage Matchup Thread

[Asodimazze]

he can't teleport to beat your zoning on reaction, so bait and punish if it's a go to thing for the Lao. Jump back 2 in neutral it's dumb but you just got to throw fireballs. He can't jump back after any blocked orbiting hat because f3 catches him. Be ready to punish 44 if they drop the combo link. In neutral, orbiting hat run ins can be low profiled by d4. I believe this mu is even, despite getting bodied by foxy everytime we play. J2 from half screen is broke but it's like that against most of the cast.

Thanks for the tips, but:

- If I throw a projectile and he teleports very fast I get punished or he gets free pressure (If I manage to block because he is late). teleport 3, if done fast, is not -8 like the frame data says. It's something like 0 on block, maybe a little plus for Lao. I can't throw out projectiles with much hopes.

- Throwing out fireballs to intercept his jump back looks like a bad idea...he can do so many things that throwing out fireballs in neutral looks like a suicide in general to me. His options against my fireballs are too good, I can only risk that once in a while.

- You are right, if done super fast f3 catches his jump back after orbiting hat. I didn't know that. Got to be on point...but is also true that he can throw out 8 frame pokes, and those will beat or trade with f3. It's a losing bet for Cage

- I already punish his 44 drops most of the time if I have a bar, but thanks for the advice.

- To me this MU is 3-7 Lao...but I want to try against Foxy. @A F0xy Grampa I added you on PSN, I hope we can have a few games someday.

 

[Phosferrax]

Ex nut punch beats jump back after hat, as does s1. Probably d1 but I'm nut sure.

You're coloring your opinion. If he does stuff to blow up you're fireballs then you can blow up all his responses. His best footsies tool on the ground is f2, but f3 is definitely superior. Lao's pressures starts with a high, so after tele 3 you don't have to hold that.

I won't accept this as a 3-7, at worst it would be 4-6. The likelihood is that your opponents are better than you. Playing Foxy will not make you feel better about the mu lol.

I'm off the back of a lot of losing games against him, but even though he is better than I am, I can see the faults in my play against the faults in the mu and there is just no way it is 3-7.

 

[Asodimazze]

It has nothing to do with my opponents, I know when they are better than me and have no problem taking a loss.

I am having issues against the character, not the players...I got to say that I have a lot of problems against Sub-Zero Grandmaster and Kung Lao Tempest at the moment. I take note of your tips, and will try to change something next time I play Lao...we'll see how it goes.

Foxy will probably beat me up, I just want to see what he does and try my best...I think my Cage is good.
Defeat is always a learning opportunity.

 

[DrFolmer]

Sub Zero is just as cancer in MKX as he was in MK9 lol, the game plan is similar but our Johnny unfortunately have less ways to execute the game plan. At least for A-List, a variation completely reliant on the pressure game.

Stunt Double have some great tools in the neutral to rival Sub Zero's spacing. It also grants something that's REALLY hurting Johnny IMO - Anti air. It's even a launcher for combos! I just hate to anti air in A-list (not just vs sub-zero, but in general), I spend a bar to trade basically the same damage. I really miss that MK9 uppercut, it was awesome.

The only way to get to Sub Zero is the EX Shadow Kick - a move that also sends Sub-zero basically fullscreen again. It's great for placing him in the corner, but there's just one problem (outside of Test Your Luck) - we don't have infinite meter, and getting close to Sub-Zero to build meter isn't always the easiest. The key to the Sub Zero matchup is careful meter manage but I feel it's largely in Sub's favor

I don't really care about downplaying/overrating Johnny. I mean we got players like Killer Xinok who absolutely got the cage plan down 4 REAL. He's very impressive regardless of variation.

Personally, I feel his anti air game is shit, as well as his jump ins, but I just have to deal with that. Compared to MK9, I feel we have been granted more mixup at the cost of a bit of our pressure strings. I do feel Johnny is fine, but vs guys like Lao or Shinnok, it just feels like a case of "your character is better than mine". They do what we do with more damage, safer and faster normals as well.

I'll just leave this here... A match between two guys, who some would consider to be the posterboys of their characters.

Sub Zero controls the pace of the game, Johnny plays by Sub's rules. Sometimes Sub Zero fucks up, and this is where you have the chance to gain momentum, but as Madzin demonstrates - that is REALLY hard for Johnny to achieve. We don't have to make Johnny better than he is and we dont have to make him worse either. Johnny has always suffered against space control and zoning.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Stunt Double have some great tools in the neutral to rival Sub Zero's spacing. It also grants something that's REALLY hurting Johnny IMO - Anti air.

What anti air? The Mimic Rising Shadow? The start up is way to slow to be a reliable anti air. Also, gravity goes full retard when you hit someone out of the air with MRS. They fall so fast you're basically limited to running up and F3~Nutcracker. Depending on where in the air the hit happens, they may be too far away to hit them with F3. Using it as AA, is kind of a waste in my opinion.

 

[rafaw]

What anti air? The Mimic Rising Shadow? The start up is way to slow to be a reliable anti air. Also, gravity goes full retard when you hit someone out of the air with MRS. They fall so fast you're basically limited to running up and F3~Nutcracker. Depending on where in the air the hit happens, they may be too far away to hit them with F3. Using it as AA, is kind of a waste in my opinion.

The only way to use it as AA is if you read a jump in, bc its too slow to use on reaction!

 

[DrFolmer]

What anti air? The Mimic Rising Shadow? The start up is way to slow to be a reliable anti air. Also, gravity goes full retard when you hit someone out of the air with MRS. They fall so fast you're basically limited to running up and F3~Nutcracker. Depending on where in the air the hit happens, they may be too far away to hit them with F3. Using it as AA, is kind of a waste in my opinion.

You got a point mate. I'll take it back, we got shitty AA xd

 

[rafaw]

Exnp is a good AA, have to spend a bar but its ok bc it gives 25% damage.
Just dont use against disjoint jips, against everything else its good.

 

[Asodimazze]

Johnny might be the only character with not only shitty AA, but also one of the worst jump in punch, and the floatiest jump.

Anything related to air sucks for him lol

 

[Phosferrax]

When will people get good with his anti air? When will people understand that most characters get relatively low damage of armoured anti airs, let a lone into a restand where you can do whatever you want.

 

[IrishMantis]

When will people get good with his anti air? When will people understand that most characters get relatively low damage of armoured anti airs, let alone into a restand where you can do whatever you want.

I agree, plus with JC F3 being so good it works as a tripgaurd and EX nutpunch leeds to decent dmg that leads to a restand, plus his jab and uppercut aint too bad when positioned and timed right, since D4 low profiles thats also decent for make some jump ins whiff. i dont have much problems with his AA Game. from my understanding the rule they seem to be going for with AA is if you want a guaranteed spend a bar.
well thats my take on it

 

[Asodimazze]

I love how the johnny cage forum is always split between the up players team and the ones who think he is abysmal...but despite that we all play him lol.

Must be some kind of addiction

 

[IrishMantis]

I love how the johnny cage forum is always split between the up players team and the ones who think he is abysmal...but despite that we all play him lol.

Must be some kind of addiction

Optimism wins

No one likes a negative nancy

We all know his whiff issues need fixing but that's it i think a F4 buff be a bonus I guess

 

[DrFolmer]

Johnny might be the only character with not only shitty AA, but also one of the worst jump in punch, and the floatiest jump.

Anything related to air sucks for him lol

And jump ins are really important for a rushdown char IMO. Johnny's god damn t-rex arms don't do shit for me. Sometimes it just feels like the majority of the cast can just react with a d2 against Johnny but whenever I try to d2 I always lose. Johnny is at least, hands down, the best personality in the game with the most memorable quotes. That alone makes all the shortcomings worth it.

 

[Dizzy]

And jump ins are really important for a rushdown char IMO. Johnny's god damn t-rex arms don't do shit for me. Sometimes it just feels like the majority of the cast can just react with a d2 against Johnny but whenever I try to d2 I always lose. Johnny is at least, hands down, the best personality in the game with the most memorable quotes. That alone makes all the shortcomings worth it.

JC and Jacqui have the worst diagonal jump punches in the game, IMO. It's almost impossible to hit crouching opponents unless it's at the absolute perfect angle. I give JC the edge though on worst since his jump itself is so bad, it's very floaty.

Has to be one of his biggest problems. His footsies in the ground game are great, but part of the footsies game is having the threat of jumping. Aside from his J3 which doesn't lead to anything, his threat of jumping is minimal.

 

[crosstalk]

In A-List I think you can do j3 run cancelled into f3~nutpunch midscreen, but it has to be pretty low to the ground. It wasn't the easiest thing to do either. His air options suck though overall. You really have to do a preemptive jump if you want to win an air-to-air or jump over a fireball.

 

[DrFolmer]

I just want my forceballs back to be honest. I don't think A-list or stunt double needs it, but I think it would be fair to make it a Fisticuffs exclusive. We don't even have to buff the speedbag string itself, and Johnny still has to use meter to continue the pressure. You can't stagger Speedbag very well anymore, and pushes people back on block very fast nowadays. It would be a cool way to make sure that Fisticuffs could apply a good pressure mid screen as well at the cost of some meter.

I think it suits the idea of the variation very well, since it's very chip oriented, and it wouldn't be OP since they hit high and you have to meterburn it. Does it sound like too much? I don't know. I think it makes the stagger option a little better if people expect the forceballs. Bear in mind, that in MK9, they whiffed on crouch block but we had the overhead threat to compensate. I think that maybe we could have the forceballs hit crouch block but not crouching without blocking, so that we have a mixup game going on. If they expect the forceballs, they simply stop blocking and procede with a punishment of their choice

Still, it would be very very hard to guess when in the string the Johnny would do forceballs (since it's a very very long string), but given the pushback, he would have to use his forceballs somewhat quickly after beginning the string (so the real guessing game is probably only in the corner - where Fisticuffs NEEDS to shine).

What do you guys think? sure I'm not a developer by any means, but given the opportunities of armored reversals I don't think it would be super OP. I don't know, I just miss the force ball pressure from MK9. Johnny's always been about the strings and chip dmg - this could definitely do something for him. Maybe I'm just rambling - I just want to feel comfortable in what Fisticuffs have to offer. Fisticuffs is the real variation that deserves to cry

 

[DrFolmer]

Just tired of watching Kung Lao doing Johnny Cage better than Johnny Cage himself

 

[Error404]

Honestly i've had such horrible experiences with his jump normals that i've given up on all of them except njp. Even when jumping over projectiles I still prefer landing and punishing if they're still in recovery or at least putting pressure on the opponent.

 

[crosstalk]

@DrFolmer I think ex forceballs are an integral part of bringing A-List to its full potential. They allow him to keep pressure going while his stamina is recovering.

For SD, ex forceballs just seem to add swag to corner combos.

 

[DrFolmer]

@DrFolmer I think ex forceballs are an integral part of bringing A-List to its full potential. They allow him to keep pressure going while his stamina is recovering.

For SD, ex forceballs just seem to add swag to corner combos.

Yeah, I could definitely see the applications for A-List, but it was more to distinguish the variations. The forceball usage makes totally sense in terms of stamina recovery, we just have to be careful we dont get a DF Liu Kang xD. I just know the Fisticuffs pressure game has been hurt severely. We can't really go around here asking for this and that before we get hated - even when Johnny definitely could use some attention.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I love how the johnny cage forum is always split between the up players team and the ones who think he is abysmal...but despite that we all play him lol.

Must be some kind of addiction

I think I'm at my most negative when I'm playing really good players and they have small hitboxes.

I played a really good Kitana the other day...she low profiled 113. On the 3 she did her ex armored launcher move. I was right next to her...the 1's didnt register and the 3 became the first hit of my string. That's just fucking wrong. Not to mention she gets to jump around for free, which is a huge weakness for Johnny. Fuck it all!!!!

 

[rafaw]

Jc is fine, we just need the hitboxes fixes.
Exforceball is a really good frame trap in A-list, and in SD is not just swag, it adds a lot of damage in the corner too.
F3 and D4 are awesomes footsies tools, but its almost a-list exclusive bc of the f3 being unsafe in the other 2 variations if you dont spend a bar.

 

[Phosferrax]

Even at that, f34 is only -8 in those variations which isn't exactly a guaranteed punish every time.

 

[Asodimazze]

Jc is fine, we just need the hitboxes fixes.
Exforceball is a really good frame trap in A-list, and in SD is not just swag, it adds a lot of damage in the corner too.
F3 and D4 are awesomes footsies tools, but its almost a-list exclusive bc of the f3 being unsafe in the other 2 variations if you dont spend a bar.

Even not considering the fact that EX forceball might whiff in a blockstring if the opponent is blocking low (in which case you are dead), being +4 with pushback for a bar is not great at all compared to what the other characters in meta get when spending a bar.
It can't be considered a very good frametrap in MKX, when nearly anyone else (even non pressure characters) gets a lot more on block after a EX move.

Kung Lao Tempest gets guaranteed pressure
Shinnok gets guaranteed pressure
Quan Chi gets guaranteed pressure
Kung Jin gets + 7 with pushback
Erron Black gets +7 without pushback
Predator Hunter gets guaranteed pressure
Tanya Kobu Jutsu gets guaranteed pressure
Jaquie full auto gets guaranteed pressure
Raiden Ex projectile is extremely plus
Kotal gets guaranteed pressure
etc.....

I'm sure if I go in practice mode and examine every character I'll find a ton more.