Johnny Cage Living MU Discussion

[Rodney Quillz]

Any tips on the raiden match up?

 

[DrFolmer]

So, is it common knowledge that a majority of the cast can low profile our Fatal Blow? I know its main use is cancels, but it's a good chuck of damage on a panic move nevertheless. Just had a Cetrion do it to me.

I decided to test it with a few characters - namely Kotal and Erron - both can quite easily low profile. Now this is only something I've experienced against a skilled player so a lot of people arent aware of this presumably. But I wanted to provide a heads up of sorts so you guys dont caught by surprise

 

[DrFolmer]

Any tips on the raiden match up?

I disliked the Raiden matchup a lot to begin with because his throw game is pretty decent. His zoning is also decent on top of that.

In case you arent aware of it, his combo starter special ends with a high. So for example if he likes to do f4 into that move, you block the first two hits and neutral duck the third hit and punish him as you like. His b1 is faster than our mid combo starter - be mindful of that.

I personally like to make him come to me by establishing a lifelead with force balls. I often start rounds immediatly with forceballs because people always walk backwards immediatly. Johnny's projectile game catches people off guard with the lifelead. If the Raiden is very good, he will be conservative with teleport and use the threat of it against you. The other Raidens play him because they have 0 patience - those are the ones you can abuse heavily. For the patient Raiden player, well I would say our buttons are better. His mixup is unsafe given the overhead being negative.

Try to be around midscreen when you throw projectiles. They cant react to them the same way they can fullscreen, so if he commits to teleport that will be a harder read. It's the samething with Scorpion tbh. His forward 4 is probably not fast enough to catch you in between your forceballs so he will probably neutral duck and try from there. And once you establish this neutral ducking at about jump distance, that's where your own f4 becomes super relevant.

Keep in mind Raiden cannot hitconfirm off f4. So unless he gambles it all and does a random f4 into special he will only use it for guaranteed whiff punishment. So the less opportunity you give him, the less of a threat he becomes

 

[Owerbart]

am I the only one that thinks zoning is a little bit funky in this game? Bar a few chars I think Johnny has good chances of getting in their faces because here aren't many zoning toolsaround to begin with.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Jesus, the Cassie MU.
A few things of note:

1. You absolutely CANNOT zone her because lmoa fuck you low profiling projectile
2. Post block you get NOTHING, can't cancel into a damn thing because forceballs whiff every time and everything else is unsafe.
3. You have to play the footsie game, except your buttons are worse and you don't have KBs attached to your footsie tools. This KB system needs a reboot or a toss in the trash, really Cass? You hit me with that easily abusable long range string that's completely safe?? Fucking epiphany! Here, take 25%.

Oh yeah and not one single thing she does is unsafe, apart from low gunshots and nutpunch.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

am I the only one that thinks zoning is a little bit funky in this game? Bar a few chars I think Johnny has good chances of getting in their faces because here aren't many zoning toolsaround to begin with.

Getting in their faces and doing what exactly?

 

[Eonfuzz]

Some of these matchups are so optimistic. Jacqui a 5-5? Lui Kang a 5-5?

I'm sorry, but Johnny has the same tools as Lui Kang except worse.
Jacui? Johnny gets nothing off of her and fireballs whiff.

People gotta stop upselling the johnny boy

 

[DrFolmer]

Some of these matchups are so optimistic. Jacqui a 5-5? Lui Kang a 5-5?

I'm sorry, but Johnny has the same tools as Lui Kang except worse.
Jacui? Johnny gets nothing off of her and fireballs whiff.

People gotta stop upselling the johnny boy

Jacqui can't possibly be 5-5 since Forceballs are completely useless as they whiff. Her slower buttons in neutral arent as detrimental for her in this matchup as they are against someone like Cassie. f3 and f4 are a few fames faster then her b2 but hers is much longer in range so she can hold her own - but it's the Forceballs that make the difference

As for Liu Kang, we have better range on our stuff - so the times where footsies are played we have the upper hand. Liu Kang's usually transition between in your face and fullscreen, and if he's smart he will try not to play too much outside f43 range. You can walk back after f344 on block to bait out his f43 and whiff punish but he can microdash and do it to catch that - but that's mindgames for ya. We also can compete with the fireballs but I will give Liu the edge because of his being low on this aspect. Johnny low profiles some hits in f43 if you stand block the first part.

And online is a heavy factor in this. There are many times fighting against both of these guys where I make the right read but fail to execute. I see Liu ending with u3, I try to d1 but it gets clipped into 380 damage. I see Jacqui cancelling and I try to poke out but she clips me with another f3 that she hit confirms. I block her d1 and try to take my turn back but f3 clips me for a full combo. It's not really the matchups that bother me all that much. These characters just thrive online and that's why everyone on the top leader board is playing these guys.

 

[Frank Reed]

What’s the advice on the Jacque matchup? I know I can punish her cancel if I read it but it is so damn quick. I just can’t seem to get away from her pressure

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Anyone played Shang yet? This matchup is looking bad.

 

[Dean]

So..

Kabal.

He is a fairly safe character that seems to out range JC in the short/medium range of JC's game. Which, IMO, is where JC is strongest. Safe Pressure, Safe Cancels, Amazing FB, Better Zoning, Confirm Strings, Lack Luster Mix, but effective when you eliminate JC's pressure.

I am about to lab this MU but thought I would jump in here and get anyone's input on this MU that may help?

Thanks.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Some of these matchups are so optimistic. Jacqui a 5-5? Lui Kang a 5-5?

I'm sorry, but Johnny has the same tools as Lui Kang except worse.
Jacui? Johnny gets nothing off of her and fireballs whiff.

People gotta stop upselling the johnny boy

Absolutely no one upsells Johnny in here....Just go read the last 20 pages of this thread

The forceballs whiffing don't make this a bad MU though. She cannot zone back so Cage get's to set the pace for the entire match. She always has to come to Cage, while sometimes taking risks. Hell, this is one of the few MUs I think I land a D2 KB every match. Zoning allows Cage players to abuse our spacing. When it's finally her turn, she does her bullshit, which is the same against pretty much every other character in the game. You just need to know when to poke or throw. Up close it's straight up reads. All I know is, is that this doesn't feel like playing against Sonya or Cassie. It feels much more fair.

I'd argue the MU is in Johnny's favor up close. There's a whiff in the string thanks to Cage's small hitbox, there's a gap big enough to use fuckin parry....F43~LF or amped LF are both punishable...it's all reads. His fireball game is comparable to Cage's, it's nothing too fancy...why would this be anything but a 5-5?

 

[thlityoursloat]

So..

Kabal.

He is a fairly safe character that seems to out range JC in the short/medium range of JC's game. Which, IMO, is where JC is strongest. Safe Pressure, Safe Cancels, Amazing FB, Better Zoning, Confirm Strings, Lack Luster Mix, but effective when you eliminate JC's pressure.

I am about to lab this MU but thought I would jump in here and get anyone's input on this MU that may help?

Thanks.

Do forceballs work? I forget who they work and don't work on since I just outright don't use them for pressure anymore.

 

[M.D.]

Anyone with a 9 frame mid is not 5-5 with Cage, sorry.

 

[Name v.5.0]

So..

Kabal.

He is a fairly safe character that seems to out range JC in the short/medium range of JC's game. Which, IMO, is where JC is strongest. Safe Pressure, Safe Cancels, Amazing FB, Better Zoning, Confirm Strings, Lack Luster Mix, but effective when you eliminate JC's pressure.

I am about to lab this MU but thought I would jump in here and get anyone's input on this MU that may help?

Thanks.

F3/F4 has more range than his B1. If you space him out you can draw out his B1. If he whiffs he's at -27. Free combo. He cant safely use his zoning if you're in that perfect space. Watch out for that stupid jump in 2 though. This is a matchup where I do nothing but stay on top of him once he's knocked down. If he controls the pace, he'll probably win.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Anyone with a 9 frame mid is not 5-5 with Cage, sorry.

That is definitely an over simplification.

 

[M.D.]

You can't say you just need to know when to poke or throw.

Basically i'm guessing if I eat a 9 frame mid into 30% or more every second, and my best bet is to do d1 or throw because that's the only thing that can come out without being stuffed.

Cage has to work much, much harder to do damage versus fast mid characters, more so Jacqui and Kang. They don't care about any tools cage has at all, he can be a generic d1 throw training dummy and it would be the same.

No way they're 5-5.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Do forceballs work? I forget who they work and don't work on since I just outright don't use them for pressure anymore.

Sometimes. Kabal is one of those characters where it depends on where his breathing animation is at. Sometimes none hit, sometimes 1, sometimes both.

 

[Name v.5.0]

You can't say you just need to know when to poke or throw.

Basically i'm guessing if I eat a 9 frame mid into 30% or more every second, and my best bet is to do d1 or throw because that's the only thing that can come out without being stuffed.

Cage has to work much, much harder to do damage versus fast mid characters, more so Jacqui and Kang. They don't care about any tools cage has at all, he can be a generic d1 throw training dummy and it would be the same.

No way they're 5-5.

Every single character in the game has to make reads against Jacqui. Keep blocking, poke, poke~special, throw, jump, etc. It's not fun. I'm with you there, but being JC doesn't have any bearing on that situation. Sure, if you have a big life deficit and have to make that up, it can be rough, but you have to plan for that. Constantly running away from Jacqui has really been working for me. Making reads and punishing, getting throws...I never really feel like I'm in trouble unless she's knocked me down in the corner. Even then, it's completely possible to get back out. We may not agree on it, but I get where you're coming from, man. Jacqui is a dumb character.

 

[M.D.]

Well, not trying to sound like a douchebag, sorry about that.

The problem is that good Jacquis never dashpunch to get in (even if it's safe). They just walk crouch block. Since the projectiles whiff on crouch block, they don't have to release block to avoid chip. That means they can't be surprised with an f4 or b3.

They just slooowly walk in, they don't care, as you don't build meter, don't do chip, don't do anything.

If you dare to do an f4 or b3, bam, you're minus without being able to cancel in anything to remain in advantage.

And then, the f3 games begin.

And the games are onesided. It's not, you guess, they guess, repeat. It's you guess you guess you guess you guess you guess, because there's nothing you can throw out to take your turn except d1 and grab. Parry is not fast and you get Kountered every single time you try to do it.

d1 on hit doesn't jail in anything, and her f3 low crushes our d4 as I've had this happen to me a bazillion times.

I really really can't see it as a 5-5.


P.s. To add: we don't have any KB to make up for life deficit. She has a truckload.

Whiff a throw? welcome to 33.
Whiff another one or try to jail a 1 or 2 after d1 on hit (which doesn't jail because NRS hitboxes)? d2 taim
Got 2 mistakes in? On the third you're eating the clutch KB. Good jacquis just do clutch on ground so you can't air escape and they guarantee load the KB and you can't do anything about it. They can sacrifice damage to do so as you can't catch up with any tools.

Not to say that people already found setups to make you eat the dash punch kb guaranteed mid combo, which further adds to the horror.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Well, not trying to sound like a douchebag, sorry about that.

The problem is that good Jacquis never dashpunch to get in (even if it's safe). They just walk crouch block. Since the projectiles whiff on crouch block, they don't have to release block to avoid chip. That means they can't be surprised with an f4 or b3.

They just slooowly walk in, they don't care, as you don't build meter, don't do chip, don't do anything.

If you dare to do an f4 or b3, bam, you're minus without being able to cancel in anything to remain in advantage.

And then, the f3 games begin.

And the games are onesided. It's not, you guess, they guess, repeat. It's you guess you guess you guess you guess you guess, because there's nothing you can throw out to take your turn except d1 and grab. Parry is not fast and you get Kountered every single time you try to do it.

d1 on hit doesn't jail in anything, and her f3 low crushes our d4 as I've had this happen to me a bazillion times.

I really really can't see it as a 5-5.

You could be right. I'd love to see this at the highest possible level. Maybe someone should tweet Kombat and see what his thoughts are.

oh and yeah....that F3 crush is fucking lame. D4 is sometimes Cage's only option to begin offense, and way too many characters just kinda step over it.

 

[Wigy]

Man since I started playing frost.

That matchup is baaaaaaaad for cage.

Grenade shuts down any attempt to zone and bf3 checks jumps and shadow kicks.

D4 shuts down literally any attempt at offence. B22 is great to whiff punish anything he tries.

 

[DrFolmer]

Sometimes. Kabal is one of those characters where it depends on where his breathing animation is at. Sometimes none hit, sometimes 1, sometimes both.

And sometimes he can fatal when we go for forceballs and gg wp teabagarino into fatality

 

[Vastly]

Man since I started playing frost.

That matchup is baaaaaaaad for cage.

Grenade shuts down any attempt to zone and bf3 checks jumps and shadow kicks.

D4 shuts down literally any attempt at offence. B22 is great to whiff punish anything he tries.

Yea if a good frost knows Johnny well it's one of my least favorite matchups.

 

[Wigy]

Yea if a good frost knows Johnny well it's one of my least favorite matchups.

Honestly feels like a 7-3.

He has to get on her with some bold yolo ass reads and then he has to somehow lock her down without being able to use shimmys cause d4.

Ex forceballs whiff

I play both and it's baaaad for him. Aside from the OP top tier this may be his worst matchup.