Johnny Cage Living MU Discussion

[DrFolmer]

I dont see Jacqui being even. She can crouch block and still whiff forceballs. Closing in is not technically demanding for her. And despite that, Cetrion controls the Jacqui matchup too but that's apparently a bad matchup for Cetrion. And M.D.'s thing with d4 being crushed is true. That shit has me eat 30% combos all the time. Jacqui shuts down a lot of the few tools we have to create openings. We do have a slight edge at sweep range, b34 is a really solid string. But even at our optimal range she still has b2, which I think has a longer range? Jacqui's neutral are severely underrated as well.

Jacqui's are really downplaying how she handles zoning. That dash punch instills fear in everyone. The moment you actually stop zoners from what they're doing to neutral crouch - you already won the mind game.

I play on PC, while I think the majority of players are dispersed on the consoles we still have really solid players at the top, and those jacquis are top (everybody either mains or has a pocket Jacqui) are really hard to take down IMO with Johnny.

And I promise you, you wont see Kombat playing Johnny against anyone's Jacqui

 

[Wigy]

Jacqui is not even with cage who is selling that bill rofl.

Can't use ex fireballs at all. F3 low crushes. She has krushing blows, he doesn't. She out damages him. Her antiairs are unreal. Her up close game is far better and you cannot stop a patient Jacqui coming in.

Shimmying backwards is more risky with b2. Most characters don't have the range to challenge cage moving back into b3.

Literally what facet of that matchup is good.

TL/DR- he can't keep her out. When she's in shes better.

 

[DrFolmer]

So..

Kabal.

He is a fairly safe character that seems to out range JC in the short/medium range of JC's game. Which, IMO, is where JC is strongest. Safe Pressure, Safe Cancels, Amazing FB, Better Zoning, Confirm Strings, Lack Luster Mix, but effective when you eliminate JC's pressure.

I am about to lab this MU but thought I would jump in here and get anyone's input on this MU that may help?

Thanks.

Kabal. We kinda have the same playstyle. And we may outrange him on certain moves. But Kabal's offense is annoying because his shimmy game is ridicolous. Let me put this in perspective. Lets say Johnny does f344 AMP forceballs on Scorpion. Scorpion has some options. He can:

• d1/d3
• Jab punish f4 into full combo
• and walk back which is the safe option

The first two are interesting because while our moves hit far, our hurtboxes travel with us as we advance. Kabal's footsies are the complete opposite case. His blades provide him with excellent long reaching hitboxes on moves, but his hurtbox stays stationary. In the above scenario, Kabal never has to worry about the punishing/kounter options. It also explains why his knock down pressure is so damn good. He can position himself out of reach for a large majority of wakeups (you know, like Jax players do when they get a KD). The way his buttons are designed just makes for a really safe offense for him, but a rather hard to navigate approach for the opponent.

Take his jump 2 for example. The reason it's so dumb is because it's essentially something that cant be antiaired. And his dash cancel variation is mad scary. Plus on block cancels, plenty of kounter hit/punish KB's and throw KB's if you try to poke after dash cancel.

His zoning isnt great, but it's tricky to navigate. Kabal is the kinda guy who can easily switch up from turtling/zoning ala Jade to a more rush down focused approach depending on life lead. He's extremely versatile and doesnt seem to have a particular weakness aside from some mediocre dmg without KB's.

I want to say 5-5 but I feel a little underwhelming against a good Kabal.

As for tips, if you can make him utilize his unsafe wakeup, you can punish that super hard. Once you get the knockdown in the corner you might find Kabal somewhat easier to contain compared to others. I would say, opt for corner carry. If it's the variation with the downwards air projectiles, just be bold and dash forward fast and punish.

EDIT: RESPECT THE FATAL BLOW, THAT SHIT IS BUSTED

 

[Wigy]

Recently discovered scorpion can straight teleport out of mb fireballs on block and avoid any of cages options.

Nightmare for reborn cause you gotta guess.

 

[DrFolmer]

Recently discovered scorpion can straight teleport out of mb fireballs on block and avoid any of cages options.

Nightmare for reborn cause you gotta guess.

This happens to me all the time LOL. Why do you think I constantly bitch about Reborn being stupid as fuck

 

[Wigy]

This happens to me all the time LOL. Why do you think I constantly bitch about Reborn being stupid as fuck

Yeah it's great that you have to just hold him jumping all over the place, get close, his pokes are obnoxious. You somehow lock him down land a blockstring into plus 6 for nothing and he's gone lol. Now you gotta get in all over.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Alright team, we’re changing the Jacqui numbers to 4-6.

 

[M.D.]

While we're at it, Cetrion, Scorpion and Kabal should be a bazillion to negative one thousand against Cage as well.

I'm also inclining to believe Baraka is 4-6 for us too as the toolset is similar but he has b3 staggers and very good krushing blows.
He can catch up on a life lead from a single mistake from us and hit us with 50%.

Better tools:

• huge damage and huge catch-up potential
• throw KB, unavoidable gutted KB
• viable staggers with b3 string which we have no answer to as parry is too slow and gets kountered
• we can't win the zoning trade, seems even

 

[DrFolmer]

I personally feel Baraka is 5-5. He relies on d3 to start his offence since his hitconfirms are high attacks (and close range as opposed to our f3). F4 is good though. He is really tricky to shimmy because that move hits like 1/3 of the screen. His zoning is a tad more effective but nothing too gamechanging. While he does hit hard, it's sort of a process for him to open us up if you play it right, meaning you have breakaway. Chop Chop is legit bullshit though LOL. You literally die in the corner against Baraka though.

I could see it on paper being 4-6 but I kinda like the matchup. He does have some dirt with that sweep being plus into f4 launcher, but that shit's punishable. I could see this being 4-6 simply due to Baraka being able to move freely. You're not gonna AA that jump kick, and you're not gonna jump on his d2, that shit's nuts. Boy can scratch his neck with that d2

 

[M.D.]

Don't forget b3 and the staggers he gets in that string with b3, b3, b31, b312, b31 amp proj etc. Since we don't have a 6 frame d1 and parry doesn't work, he can just keep doing it for ages. It also stuffs our f4 almost non stop because the forward hitbox on that thing is insane. It's also a godlike meaty on wakeup.

 

[Wigy]

I don't see how baraka is 5-5.

If you play a good baraka they challenge you moving in after ex forceballs with those stupid pokes he gets in gutted.

His pokes are faster. You can't try to abuse his pokes like you do in some matchups as F4 will check you hard. He outdamages you massively. Zoning is just as good if not better.

He can jump all over you with his JIK, you can't jump in at all cause of the silly ass d2. F44 is a better footsie tool than anything cage has. F4 when spaced right is actually plus on block and he has a 6f poke I believe. So scary poking after that.

You will need to open him up a bunch more times than he does to you, which is hard as he plays the same game you do but better. The area where cage stands out from the cast is shimmy neutral and controlling the pace of the match with projectiles. Baraka can deal with both while dishing out 650 damage combos

TL/Dr

Barakas footsies deal with and can counter cages.
His zoning is marginally better.
Baraka does like twice the damage cage does in a kombo and has easy KBs everywhere
Baraka can jump a lot more freely than cage.

 

[Wigy]

For all matchups which are on paper close on paper tools wise people need to start factoring in that cage will rarely land his fatal blow and will neeever land his krushing blows.

Especially in matchups where they duck projectiles and you're denied chip, you get 25% for opening up someone. They get 50% for hitting you with a KB.

I have played a strong game, made the right reads and then just fucked by a krushing blow and lose. I'm sure you guys have had the same.

It's easy to overlook KBs when you're not talking about geras. Fatal blows also get overlooked a little in MU discussion too cause in older mk games x-rays were very rarely a big matchup sway.

I play frost, matchups turn into a compleeeetely different game once fatal blow is in play. People just have to sit there and hold my zoning.

Once you factor in the damage deficit and that cage isn't playing the same game as everyone else with no KBs, a lot of matchups won't be 5-5s like they look on paper.

 

[M.D.]

On the notes above, Subzero is also a 4-6 as he will ALWAYS get his KBs since he does them in combos so there is no escape.
It's practically free 90% in every match.

And he WILL get it, he just needs 5 mistakes from you.

And if you have to play each match without doing more than 4 mistakes, it's not a 5-5.

He doesn't even need his overhead string. If you take it away he still is a better cage in every way. Wins all zoning trades, huge damage, 6 frame d1 etc etc.

 

[DrFolmer]

I think with the 20+ something frames Fatal Blow has of startup, people can react to it with low profiling pokes (doesnt have to be particularly low). It really needs to be a true mid. It really sucks doing it against mashy opponents and it just goes over the poke and they punish it for a CORRECT read we did

 

[Wigy]

I think with the 20+ something frames it has of startup, people can react to it with low profiling pokes (doesnt have to be particularly low). It really needs to be a true mid. It really sucks doing it against mashy opponents and it just goes over the poke and they punish it for a CORRECT read we did

You talking about the caged rage or whatever that move is? Db4 I think?

I honestly never use any of his abilities. Very occasionally mime time.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Baraka I could entertain changing, Sub Zero I'm far less sure. Remember guys, just because something seems a certain way on paper doesn't mean that's how it goes. For instance, saying you cant jump in in Baraka because D2 isn't fair. It's not going to happen 100% of the time.

If it's one thing I've learned after being on this site for 8 years, it's that you can't be too quick to say things....Be nice if we could see some really high level play of Cage against all these characters...

 

[Name v.5.0]

You talking about the caged rage or whatever that move is? Db4 I think?

I honestly never use any of his abilities. Very occasionally mime time.

I've gotten so much mileage out of Caged Rage. It blows me away that you don't use it.

 

[Wigy]

I've gotten so much mileage out of Caged Rage. It blows me away that you don't use it.

What good about it? I don't get it.

You give up your turn on block, it's punishable, you get very little on hit?

I don't get the point. It's hard enough in some matchups getting in. I'd rather go for plus frames or staggers into grabs and shimmys.

 

[DrFolmer]

You talking about the caged rage or whatever that move is? Db4 I think?

I honestly never use any of his abilities. Very occasionally mime time.

Typed too fast, it was with regards to the Fatal Blow. Like the entire cast can low profile it. It's super limited in terms of what it can stuff

 

[Name v.5.0]

What good about it? I don't get it.

You give up your turn on block, it's punishable, you get very little on hit?

I don't get the point. It's hard enough in some matchups getting in. I'd rather go for plus frames or staggers into grabs and shimmys.

It's another tool in the tool chest.

If you're playing against a character that forceballs whiff on, you're giving up your turn anyway so you might as well load up CR. Level 1 sure is punishable and dangerous, but level 2 and level 3 are fairly hard to poke. Used correctly, people seem to want to poke or attempt a move after they think your string is done and that's when you hit them. Level 2 = plus frames on hit, level 3 = 10% and a knockdown.

Hitting a level 3 has won me rounds and turned the tide of a close match. You mentioned not using it or mime time, but I've landed a level 3 CR and Mime Timed a wake up attack for a total of like 40% of their life more than a few times.

They're not the most important tools Cage has, but they still have uses.

 

[DrFolmer]

Lvl 3 should grant combo in the corner ala the b2 move he had in mk9. I want some fucking dirt too in this game LOL

 

[Wigy]

It's another tool in the tool chest.

If you're playing against a character that forceballs whiff on, you're giving up your turn anyway so you might as well load up CR. Level 1 sure is punishable and dangerous, but level 2 and level 3 are fairly hard to poke. Used correctly, people seem to want to poke or attempt a move after they think your string is done and that's when you hit them. Level 2 = plus frames on hit, level 3 = 10% and a knockdown.

Hitting a level 3 has won me rounds and turned the tide of a close match. You mentioned not using it or mime time, but I've landed a level 3 CR and Mime Timed a wake up attack for a total of like 40% of their life more than a few times.

They're not the most important tools Cage has, but they still have uses.

Their uses are situational and have a bad risk reward. Yeah they can work but optimal play basically shouldnt be used much.

Kombat is basically the most successful cage and never uses either mime time or caged rage from all the gameplay I've seen.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Lvl 3 should grant combo in the corner ala the b2 move he had in mk9. I want some fucking dirt too in this game LOL

That or a Krushing Blow. Land 2 CR's, second one KB's for like 25%. I would love that.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Their uses are situational and have a bad risk reward. Yeah they can work but optimal play basically shouldnt be used much.

Kombat is basically the most successful cage and never uses either mime time or caged rage from all the gameplay I've seen.

I'd like to hear his reasoning. I dont know man...All I do know is that people I play sets with know I'm going to use it and still rarely punish level 1...and if you get level 1, you're basically free to use level 2 and 3.

I'm sure when you're playing guys like Sonic Fox, getting level 1 off is a fucking good way to eat a D2KB. Probably gets punished every time. Until people actually start punishing my level 1, I'm going to keep using it.

 

[Wigy]

I'd like to hear his reasoning. I dont know man...All I do know is that people I play sets with know I'm going to use it and still rarely punish level 1...and if you get level 1, you're basically free to use level 2 and 3.

I'm sure when you're playing guys like Sonic Fox, getting level 1 off is a fucking good way to eat a D2KB. Probably gets punished every time. Until people actually start punishing my level 1, I'm going to keep using it.

I rarely use it and get poked out most of the time.
It's not worth the risk by any means like I said neutral shimmys and grab mixups are way stronger and the risk reward is better. Like best case scenario most of the time after giving up your turn twice and risking a d2 KB is getting some unblockable damage.

It doesn't really condition or command any respect.