Johnny Cage Living MU Discussion

[Espio]

You're actually describing how I attempt to play the MU. Except I probably go for F3 more than I should. I'm pretty sure my problem is impatience with the MU. Same issue I have with Skarlet. Thanks for posting this.

She's annoying and I wanna reiterate I'm not saying it's 5-5 or anything definitive, but Cage can do some work too and has his ways of coping with her. It would be different if she was neutral with pushback and you have to just hope she whiffs. I also think people should abuse the fact that back 2 is a high so if she whiffs that she can't cancel into anything and you can sometimes out right punish her for it too.


I tested a lot of theories on Cage and I like to read everyone's concerns because it helps me to improve too so I was playing a lot of different match ups where people would start neutral crouching forward 3 and since they both have the same speed you can't react to forward 4 so I would blow people up for ducking.

You duck instead of block twice and I've taken 22% and you're on the ground next to me. Same thing with nut punch hit advantage not being so hot, I like to walk back sometimes and punish the down 2 mash people do expecting the forward 3 or what have you. The goal is to turn weaknesses into strengths. People getting fresh and mashing opens them up for you, but you gotta be precise and trust your reads and knowledge to make that stuff happen. Cage is all footsies and his range is good enough that if you're right you can check people

I'm not sure how to deal with Skarlet currently, but I will try to grind it out if I can to see what I can cook with versus her. I have a set versus a good Cetrion, Bacon Lord I'll have to upload where I do a lot of what I described above. We gotta be innovative to make it work and if you want to run games at some point, let me know.

 

[Name v.5.0]

She's annoying and I wanna reiterate I'm not saying it's 5-5 or anything definitive, but Cage can do some work too and has his ways of coping with her. It would be different if she was neutral with pushback and you have to just hope she whiffs. I also think people should abuse the fact that back 2 is a high so if she whiffs that she can't cancel into anything and you can sometimes out right punish her for it too.


I tested a lot of theories on Cage and I like to read everyone's concerns because it helps me to improve too so I was playing a lot of different match ups where people would start neutral crouching forward 3 and since they both have the same speed you can't react to forward 4 so I would blow people up for ducking.

You duck instead of block twice and I've taken 22% and you're on the ground next to me. Same thing with nut punch hit advantage not being so hot, I like to walk back sometimes and punish the down 2 mash people do expecting the forward 3 or what have you. The goal is to turn weaknesses into strengths. People getting fresh and mashing opens them up for you, but you gotta be precise and trust your reads and knowledge to make that stuff happen. Cage is all footsies and his range is good enough that if you're right you can check people

I'm not sure how to deal with Skarlet currently, but I will try to grind it out if I can to see what I can cook with versus her. I have a set versus a good Cetrion, Bacon Lord I'll have to upload where I do a lot of what I described above. We gotta be innovative to make it work and if you want to run games at some point, let me know.

I’m labbing Jade again right now and realizing I made mistakes the first time around. Distance is everything and block stun is fucking stupid.

 

[Tundra81]

because what would that make the Cassie MU?

And Cassie MU, L()L

I wish Johnny never had a kid.

 

[lionheart21]

I wish Johnny never had a kid.

Cassie: "Don't hate."

But yeah, as someone who's been playing more of Cassie than Johnny nowadays, she's got us beat in pretty much everything except for the corner.

 

[jonesy261]

Something’s been playing on my mind, is it just me, or is the scorpion matchup just a complete waste of time? Once he gets one knock down, he can literally mix you every time you wake up until your dead without the use of a combo, same for sub zero. Only you can’t even zone out scorpion due to the teleport. I personally think scorpion and sub zero are the biggest annoyances of this game. The fact that they can completely obliterate and win a game without the use of a single combo, literally half hour in the lab, learn one or two strings and your set to dominate online. I hate learning top tier characters and I’m not good enough to programme myself to learn bottom tiers. This is why I went with Johnny. But my frustration just grows endlessly and tirelessly when I can’t play an hours online session without getting out matched by top tier characters. Time to learn a top tier I think.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Something’s been playing on my mind, is it just me, or is the scorpion matchup just a complete waste of time? Once he gets one knock down, he can literally mix you every time you wake up until your dead without the use of a combo, same for sub zero. Only you can’t even zone out scorpion due to the teleport. I personally think scorpion and sub zero are the biggest annoyances of this game. The fact that they can completely obliterate and win a game without the use of a single combo, literally half hour in the lab, learn one or two strings and your set to dominate online. I hate learning top tier characters and I’m not good enough to programme myself to learn bottom tiers. This is why I went with Johnny. But my frustration just grows endlessly and tirelessly when I can’t play an hours online session without getting out matched by top tier characters. Time to learn a top tier I think.

If you look at the recent post, people are talking about how bad online is right now, stuff like holding the block button and still being attacked, stuff like thin ice f2 slide is damn near unblockable online, and scorpions f3 staggers suck to defend against with even the smallest lag.

I wouldn’t take it to heart man until they fix obline.

 

[DrFolmer]

Something’s been playing on my mind, is it just me, or is the scorpion matchup just a complete waste of time? Once he gets one knock down, he can literally mix you every time you wake up until your dead without the use of a combo, same for sub zero. Only you can’t even zone out scorpion due to the teleport. I personally think scorpion and sub zero are the biggest annoyances of this game. The fact that they can completely obliterate and win a game without the use of a single combo, literally half hour in the lab, learn one or two strings and your set to dominate online. I hate learning top tier characters and I’m not good enough to programme myself to learn bottom tiers. This is why I went with Johnny. But my frustration just grows endlessly and tirelessly when I can’t play an hours online session without getting out matched by top tier characters. Time to learn a top tier I think.

Playing against Scorpion is essentially being matched against someone with the same gameplan as us - just with much better tools. I think we fare better against Searing Rage due to us always being able to punish the spear specials. Some Scorps like to do d4 into the spear dance (idk what it's called) - while effectively it is also full combo punishable due to how close to us he started the move, and from further ranges shadow kick always hits. Those punishes definitely add up. Reborn is scary though, his neutral has so many layers and the mere pressence of this variation instills fear. While he is overwhelming, I think confidence is a factor here, and having your throw tech game down helps plenty. Keeping track of his offensive meter also help you determine his options. Is he without bar? You can probably get away with a little zoning since he has to commit to a single hit teleport, just be careful not to throw them carelessly since he can punish it rather hard

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Johnny wins Geras 6-4 ? Is there something I missed ?

 

[Name v.5.0]

Johnny wins Geras 6-4 ? Is there something I missed ?

He can’t use F212. The 1 whiffs if you neutral duck. You can 34~full combo. Essentially, Johnny takes away his best tool. He also can’t use sand trap unless he’s full screen thanks to shadow kick. Johnny also easily out pokes him.

 

[Name v.5.0]

The more I play the Kitana MU the more I’m starting to think it’s closer to 4-6. Take her to the lab and just record her spamming d1. It beats every forward advancing normal we have. Walking back and back dashes can be beat. Can’t use amplified forceballs. Cant use any fast normals up close. If the Kitana player knows how to block and tech throws, it becomes nearly impossible to to do any damage. Even if you do land a combo starter, she’ll almost always have meter to break out, and if done at the right time, she can full combo punishes you.

The only time I feel like I have any control is in the corner.

What are you guys doing?

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

He can’t use F212. The 1 whiffs if you neutral duck. You can 34~full combo. Essentially, Johnny takes away his best tool. He also can’t use sand trap unless he’s full screen thanks to shadow kick. Johnny also easily out pokes him.

Well I didn't know that, that's great ! I never played against any Geras player online so my knowledge of that character is very limited.

 

[xKhaoTik]

The more I play the Kitana MU the more I’m starting to think it’s closer to 4-6. Take her to the lab and just record her spamming d1. It beats every forward advancing normal we have. Walking back and back dashes can be beat. Can’t use amplified forceballs. Cant use any fast normals up close. If the Kitana player knows how to block and tech throws, it becomes nearly impossible to to do any damage. Even if you do land a combo starter, she’ll almost always have meter to break out, and if done at the right time, she can full combo punishes you.

The only time I feel like I have any control is in the corner.

What are you guys doing?

Yup I have yet to play a cage who made me think it’s even or worse. Kitana controls the match for the most part. Better footsies, range, pokes, buttons, etc.

I don’t see how this is even.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Yup I have yet to play a cage who made me think it’s even or worse. Kitana controls the match for the most part. Better footsies, range, pokes, buttons, etc.

I don’t see how this is even.

Yeah, I think I may change it on the OP unless someone can offer some kind of inside knowledge. Cage excels at footsies and punishes...Kitana beats Cage at footsies and is incredibly safe. It's kinda starting to feel obvious now.

 

[M.D.]

There was a lot of theory above about Jade that when inside the match just doesn't work.

Her d4 outpokes everything cage does.
Her gameplan is to just walkback glaives and glow on reaction or outside the range of shadow kick, and then proceed to do so until you get in f3 range.

Then she just does d4 walkback or instajumpback glaive and you will not reach with a single button to do anything about it.
She can always whiff punish with shadow kick sending you back full screen.

Being in f4 range is irrelevant, as she blocks it and you will have to guess between her f3 or grab which still puts you in a bad position after working to get in.

The matchup is constant guessing and trying to make the right read to get damage.

-13 is irrelevant as 90% of the time you will be out of range of your 1 or 2 and even grab so you can not punish with damage at all.

Her shadow kick MB is actually a better mindgame than scorp teleport mb on block as the spacing is random depending on whether you blocked the first hit high or crouch and your 1 or 2 will NOT reach for a punish. If you wait for the MB you will be left with a horribly small window to punish, if you reach that is.

Her animation of bf2 is retarded and does an extra visual hit even though she doesn't hit you and the block disadvantage begins before the hit. If you try to hit when the animation is finished she is already blocking. Same weird blockstun on shadow kick, you have to grind it in practice to get it consistently offline, and online with random 100-200 pings it's practically safe period.

It's an uphill battle where you have to guess and make reads constantly, and there is nothing she does that will allow you to actually cash out on your getting in or making a good read, with a 30-35% combo. You can not open her up with anything as she just d4 walkbacks, so if the Jade player is good and patient, good luck landing any damage on her. One mistake and you get shadow kicked or d2-ed and good luck starting from the beginning.

You can't use shadow kick to punish as you send her fullscreen and you will eat the same damage in chip that you did to her with the shadow kick trying to get in again.

If you eventually get in, you LOSE as the bugged hitboxes don't allow you to do ex forceball to maintain pressure, so you're reduced to hitting one string that is minus and then start guessing again on a d2, shadow kick, f3 or walkback poke.
You have no KBs to even out the life when you get in and your parry is so slow there is no way to do it on reaction as Kang does.

 

[Name v.5.0]

There was a lot of theory above about Jade that when inside the match just doesn't work.

Her d4 outpokes everything cage does.
Her gameplan is to just walkback glaives and glow on reaction or outside the range of shadow kick, and then proceed to do so until you get in f3 range.

Then she just does d4 walkback or instajumpback glaive and you will not reach with a single button to do anything about it.
She can always whiff punish with shadow kick sending you back full screen.

Being in f4 range is irrelevant, as she blocks it and you will have to guess between her f3 or grab which still puts you in a bad position after working to get in.

The matchup is constant guessing and trying to make the right read to get damage.

-13 is irrelevant as 90% of the time you will be out of range of your 1 or 2 and even grab so you can not punish with damage at all.

Her shadow kick MB is actually a better mindgame than scorp teleport mb on block as the spacing is random depending on whether you blocked the first hit high or crouch and your 1 or 2 will NOT reach for a punish. If you wait for the MB you will be left with a horribly small window to punish, if you reach that is.

Her animation of bf2 is (soap bar in my mouth) and does an extra visual hit even though she doesn't hit you and the block disadvantage begins before the hit. If you try to hit when the animation is finished she is already blocking. Same weird blockstun on shadow kick, you have to grind it in practice to get it consistently offline, and online with random 100-200 pings it's practically safe period.

It's an uphill battle where you have to guess and make reads constantly, and there is nothing she does that will allow you to actually cash out on your getting in or making a good read, with a 30-35% combo. You can not open her up with anything as she just d4 walkbacks, so if the Jade player is good and patient, good luck landing any damage on her. One mistake and you get shadow kicked or d2-ed and good luck starting from the beginning.

You can't use shadow kick to punish as you send her fullscreen and you will eat the same damage in chip that you did to her with the shadow kick trying to get in again.

If you eventually get in, you LOSE as the bugged hitboxes don't allow you to do ex forceball to maintain pressure, so you're reduced to hitting one string that is minus and then start guessing again on a d2, shadow kick, f3 or walkback poke.
You have no KBs to even out the life when you get in and your parry is so slow there is no way to do it on reaction as Kang does.

And why does her B2(or is it B1? The move where she shakes her stick at you) anti air?

 

[Mikemetroid]

I think the Jacqui variation with the fireballs is actual aids. She does so much damage and doesn't even hit you. I think the gameplan is to actually stay full screen and throw forceballs when she shoots one of her fireballs (she recovers very slowly, granting a pretty easy trade).

It's insanely difficult though as soon as she gets a life lead. Anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[Frank Reed]

Yeah, I think I may change it on the OP unless someone can offer some kind of inside knowledge. Cage excels at footsies and punishes...Kitana beats Cage at footsies and is incredibly safe. It's kinda starting to feel obvious now.

I think we have her beat in the zoning department. I try to keep her away with forceballs.

 

[Frank Reed]

I think the Jacqui variation with the fireballs is actual aids. She does so much damage and doesn't even hit you. I think the gameplan is to actually stay full screen and throw forceballs when she shoots one of her fireballs (she recovers very slowly, granting a pretty easy trade).

It's insanely difficult though as soon as she gets a life lead. Anyone have thoughts on this?

I try and zone this matchup too. It is an incredibly frustrating and unfun matchup even if you are winning.

 

[DrFolmer]

I think the Jacqui variation with the fireballs is actual aids. She does so much damage and doesn't even hit you. I think the gameplan is to actually stay full screen and throw forceballs when she shoots one of her fireballs (she recovers very slowly, granting a pretty easy trade).

It's insanely difficult though as soon as she gets a life lead. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Her second variation is kinda my secondary of sorts. I think against Cage in particular she can get away with a lot of plasma shenanigans due to his somewhat slower advancing buttons. Her prefered spacing is midscreen as her projectiles dont go too far. I just abuse that people don't lab against this variation - but the only way she gets plasma setups safely is ending combos early by cancelling into low plasma. With a f12 on hit canceled into low plasma she's still very punishable.

As for the fullscreen strat, yeah I think that is the right way to initiate it as she sort of has to close the gap a bit due to grenade arc. Ironically despite playing both Johnny and Jacqui's second variation - i don't know too much about the matchup between these two. I play against a lot of First Round Jacqui's though, and dash punch is somewhat scary in the range I normally would like to be in, and I think in Johnny's case shadowkick can be a useful tool given the up grenade essentially being an anti air projectile for the first 1/3 of it's travel time. At max distance you can actually jump them when you see them come out, which is actually quite easier to get by. Most of the time in this game you gotta somewhat read the projectile of you wanna save time by jumping - against jacqui at max distance for up grenade you can just see her do it and jump forward. If she does it again you just dash in and punish. Also, learning the exact distance the up-nade can open up for some zoning shimmies I guess? Idk what to call it LOL. Make her throw it out and walk back a little and throw a ex forceball or shadowkick of you're bold enough.

I kinda play her with a more area denial focus. I actually try to whiff them causing the ground to burn. So, essentially close distance, throw out a enhanced up nade to cover the space in front of the opponent in 2 plasma fields that stack (20.00 dmg per tick). The usual reaction is walking backwards and I dont have to worry about them trying to contest my approach immediatly. It kinda provokes the same uncomfortable panic behavior seen with Errons acid. I do wanna stress that this Jacqui lacks the same come back potential as her primary variation due to it being a bit - well not gimmicky but setup dependent. I get away with a lot of dumb things like d3 into low plasma on block. People should be full combo punishing that rather than counter poking, but then again that's DoT for ya.

I'm sorry I dont have hard matchup experience to drop, but I can share some setups I grinded in practice some days ago: https://testyourmight.com/threads/jacqui-briggs-general-discussion.69302/page-8#post-2529978 - might as well be prepared for when she gets you in the corner

 

[Mikemetroid]

@DrFolmer thanks, I'll try jumping in on the whiff, would work because of her slow recovery. Didn't think of that.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

He can’t use F212. The 1 whiffs if you neutral duck. You can 34~full combo. Essentially, Johnny takes away his best tool. He also can’t use sand trap unless he’s full screen thanks to shadow kick. Johnny also easily out pokes him.

I think this might be dangerous advice.

You are completely right, but as in past nrs games online is a different game than offline.

Johnnys small hitbox advantage seems inconsistent online, as with Liu kang I can low profile the f43 but online I was jailed into crouch block 7 times out of 10 it seemed.

Sometimes I’ve been clipped by geras 2 when I’ve neutral ducked but that could be operator error.

 

[Espio]

There was a lot of theory above about Jade that when inside the match just doesn't work.

Her d4 outpokes everything cage does.
Her gameplan is to just walkback glaives and glow on reaction or outside the range of shadow kick, and then proceed to do so until you get in f3 range.

Then she just does d4 walkback or instajumpback glaive and you will not reach with a single button to do anything about it.
She can always whiff punish with shadow kick sending you back full screen.

Being in f4 range is irrelevant, as she blocks it and you will have to guess between her f3 or grab which still puts you in a bad position after working to get in.

The matchup is constant guessing and trying to make the right read to get damage.

-13 is irrelevant as 90% of the time you will be out of range of your 1 or 2 and even grab so you can not punish with damage at all.

Her shadow kick MB is actually a better mindgame than scorp teleport mb on block as the spacing is random depending on whether you blocked the first hit high or crouch and your 1 or 2 will NOT reach for a punish. If you wait for the MB you will be left with a horribly small window to punish, if you reach that is.

Her animation of bf2 is (soap bar in my mouth) and does an extra visual hit even though she doesn't hit you and the block disadvantage begins before the hit. If you try to hit when the animation is finished she is already blocking. Same weird blockstun on shadow kick, you have to grind it in practice to get it consistently offline, and online with random 100-200 pings it's practically safe period.

It's an uphill battle where you have to guess and make reads constantly, and there is nothing she does that will allow you to actually cash out on your getting in or making a good read, with a 30-35% combo. You can not open her up with anything as she just d4 walkbacks, so if the Jade player is good and patient, good luck landing any damage on her. One mistake and you get shadow kicked or d2-ed and good luck starting from the beginning.

You can't use shadow kick to punish as you send her fullscreen and you will eat the same damage in chip that you did to her with the shadow kick trying to get in again.

If you eventually get in, you LOSE as the bugged hitboxes don't allow you to do ex forceball to maintain pressure, so you're reduced to hitting one string that is minus and then start guessing again on a d2, shadow kick, f3 or walkback poke.
You have no KBs to even out the life when you get in and your parry is so slow there is no way to do it on reaction as Kang does.

Nothing stated was theory. Not liking something doesn't translate to it being theory. You can disagree of course, but that doesn't mean it lacks validity. If you're playing sub-optimal and not taking advantage of your frames, that's a personal choice. Like imagine not taking punish damage not because you can't, but because you don't wanna send her closer to the corner.

Theory fighting is thinking that another human being will play perfectly and make no errors. That's actual theory stuff. In real matches human opponents even with superb spacing will sometimes get out read or out spaced if the opponent is competent enough.

I dunno if it's a lack of comprehensive spacing/position knowledge or what, but you're talking about her walking backwards. If she's walking back PLUS a shadow kick tag she should be about in the corner pretty quick and then you can abuse your ability to low profile wake ups and her up 3 is susceptible to that.

Nobody should be discussing match ups while referencing laggy matches. Only thing that matters is what you can do in game. I can't punish Kung Lao's spin in some types of bad connections, but I can punish it offline so not a relevant talking point lol.

 

[Owerbart]

How do you handle jax? everytime I fight him it seems like i'm fighting a better version in every aspect of johnny.

I have no clue how to deal with his d1 being only -4 and all his 1+3 ending strings being safe

 

[M.D.]

For Jax, his 1+3 thing is -7 iirc, so you can get your turn.

Unfortunately, for Cage his turn means a grab or d4 attempt.
You can do f4 sure, but you-ll be -5 and eat another f33 stagger so you're back into the blender.

I'm not sure if amp fireball whiffs on jax crouch block. I think not as he is bulky, so you can do an f4 amp fireball to get your +3 and some distance to restart the neutral.
I almost never play vs Jax as literally 99% of ranked wait for me to pick, and when they see Cage they instantly pick Jade.

Not much else to say here. It would have been really useful to have a fast parry like Kang, but noooooooooooo.


As for Jade, I said theory because all that has been said there implied that no mistakes were made.

Just walk her to the corner
Just block and punish.

These imply you will never miscalculate a dash, a walk, and get d2-ed or shadow kicked yourself.
These imply you will never get a random pushback or blockstun from blocked shadowkick and whiff a 1 or 2 punish to eat a d2 kb.

Which in actuall matches will never happen.

My problem here is that one mistake from Cage costs Cage a lot more than one mistake from Jade costs Jade.
Her random pushback means you will CLEARLY whiff a 1 or 2 punish and eat another d2. There's no way arround it. It's not consistent at all.
Her female hitbox means we can't block pressure when we get in so we practically walk her to the corner to pressure her with what? d4 spam and grab?
We can't even do that because of her d4.

Matchup is by far top 2 worst for Cage in the entire game.

As I said, if we would have usable KB, no whiffing issues and maybe who knows, a faster parry, then it will make us working to get in for half a match actually count.
I can lose 15% chip getting in if I could capitalize with a 33% damage KB and pressure with amplified fireballs.

How it is now, it's practically fighting water.

 

[DrFolmer]

How do you handle jax? everytime I fight him it seems like i'm fighting a better version in every aspect of johnny.

I have no clue how to deal with his d1 being only -4 and all his 1+3 ending strings being safe

Depending on the variation, we usually hit harder than him. I try to make Jax blow most KB's early (preferably without him winning). Once they're gone, Hunker Down becomes pretty meh. His other variation is super underrated though and make him much more of a threat midscreen as he also competes damage-wise.

I play some Hunker Down myself and things I hate opponents do:

- Jump my staggers. While f33 staggers are good because the animation of 331+3 is rather long between hits (hard to spot the stagger) they're vulnerable to jumping especially due to the long recovery.

- His range somewhat limited. B1 covers a lot of ground but isnt too much of a threat in Hunker Down. If you can actually apply shimmy to Jax you can whiff punish him super easily cause his strings are very stationary. By that I mean, you seen how Kabal moves forward a lot on f224? Or maybe Kitana's main string? These guys are somewhat difficult to shimmy due to the far advancing nature of strings combined with our not super fast mids. Jax moves dont have the same benefit of taking him forward a lot - which makes whiff punishing a much more viable approach (which in turn is our gameplan anyway )

- consistently tech my forward throws. Some guys like to just tech forward all day and eat back throws (granted they dont neutral duck as well). While this provides somewhat guaranteed throws, the back throw creates more distance as opposed the AMAZING forward throw he has as well as preventing my KB on it.

Hunker Down is very momentum based. You either run people over or you just become underwhelming when all Krushing Blows are gone. Getting the life lead, which in turn force Jax to spend a lot of his Krushing Blows early in the match is absolutely essential for your succes. If you can get rid of the grab and string ender KB in one round? And if you take that round on top of that? It's pretty much in your favor. He's only gonna be a threat if you fall for the b2 on knockdown after which he can drop his projectile KB. You need to make Jax spend his valuable ressources as early as possible - and I dont mean this by going like "hey Jax is max heated let me eat that 32 % throw right quick". If you can put him in situation where he feels like ending the round with a forward throw despite you being super low hp then that's a win by itself. The less he gets out of the KB's the better it is.

I've played some Jax mirrors with a pretty decent Jax and the one who won the games were the one managing KB's the best. If I had to spend 1+3, d2 and throw KB in round 1 I would have to rely on my low dmg and staggers to win while he would have a full toolset at his disposal for the next two rounds potentially. Jax players tend to disrespect a lot, pressing buttons after a blocked d1 or when they get hit by a d1 themselves. Jax is one of those characters where pokes into nutpunch can be pretty useful. Reversal throws after 1+3 go a long way also. His f2d4 is very punishable though