General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage General Discussion Thread

[Kompetitor]

I got a question for my fellow A Listers @rafaw @Killer Xinok @kelevra : So i am struggling in a few match ups with A list, like sub zero, cassie, jax, kitana, and shinnok. If i were to pick up a secondary, who are some options of characters that pick up where cage lacks the most?

 

[Killer Xinok]

I got a question for my fellow A Listers @rafaw @Killer Xinok @kelevra : So i am struggling in a few match ups with A list, like sub zero, cassie, jax, kitana, and shinnok. If i were to pick up a secondary, who are some options of characters that pick up where cage lacks the most?

First, I don't think these matchups are so hard for johnny. but if you wanna supply the disadvantages of cage. pick up kung lao: best anti-air, quick punisher, and great jump.. I'm training Lao right now, in case I need to use him someday.. but I don't think it'll be necessary . If you want some hints on these matchups, ask me, I got some stuff to try to defeat these monste.. I mean, these characters hahah

 

[Name v.5.0]

Boneshaper, Tanya, Kung Lao, Sub-Zero (but he doesn't counter stunt double), Cassie. For someone Hish Qu Ten is a good counter too.
Any character can beat Cage anyway, he doesn't dominate in any matchup.
There is no 7-3 in his favour...you don't really need to counterpick.

Wanted to throw out that I think SDJC dominates BG Kotal. I'd call it 7-3.

 

[Hawfy]

Has anyone noticed that the frame data for A-List's regular SK is wrong it says its -13 on block but Predators Scimitar Stab can punish it.

 

[Asodimazze]

Has anyone noticed that the frame data for A-List's regular SK is wrong it says its -13 on block but Predators Scimitar Stab can punish it.

The frame data also has charged shadowkick at +1, but it is extremely punishable lol

 

[Vintagesoul]

On the bright side, Johnny's throw is 5-10 frames plus on hit, not zero like the frame data says

 

[Asodimazze]

On the bright side, Johnny's throw is 5-10 frames plus on hit, not zero like the frame data says

Totally looks like 0 on hit to me, how did you test this?

 

[Vintagesoul]

Record Johnny to throw you and hold up. You hold up after being thrown.

 

[Asodimazze]

Record Johnny to throw you and hold up. You hold up after being thrown.

That's the wrong way to test it, you have to set the AI to wake up and try to stuff it.
I did that against Cassie flipkick, and yes we have some small advantage since I am able to stuff flipkick with d1. I would say it is +3-4.

Unexpected lol

 

[Lone]

Now we just have to master all those cancels, and Johnny becomes a monster!
All we have tested:
F34 RC = +12
F3 SKRC = +17
121 RC = +13
113 SKRC = +2
114 SKRC = ~+20
F2 SKRC = +15
F24 SKRC = +12
333 SKRC = +15
B34 SKRC = +17
D4 SKRC = ~+6
4 SKRC = ~+20

If we get good enough after a nut punch we can get guaranted 4 / F3 / 114 / b34skrc~333skrc~f2exfb and check with a d4, if it hits we get another f3 / f2 / skrc into pressure.

Looking at this data, what are the differences between DF Liu Kang and A-List JC?

Aside from F213 fb dash cancel being plus 6 or so, they seem to be the same on paper to me. MB Dragon Kick to be +2/ex Force Ball= +4.

They both armor break with b12/121? Good zoning/decent zoning, and a overhead that splats/one that juggles versus jabs strings that end overhead/low. So basically you block low vs Liu and high vs Johnny.

 

[rafaw]

Yesterday i was in training to master 333 and b34 cancels to guaranted pressure with reversal tempest, and i notice something.
I use a fightstick, and i used to do the cancels like these: 114bf4(just dial thia all and wait until the sk start) then ff+block, this way sometimes

Looking at this data, what are the differences between DF Liu Kang and A-List JC?

Aside from F213 fb dash cancel being plus 6 or so, they seem to be the same on paper to me. MB Dragon Kick to be +2/ex Force Ball= +4.

They both armor break with b12/121? Good zoning/decent zoning, and a overhead that splats/one that juggles versus jabs strings that end overhead/low. So basically you block low vs Liu and high vs Johnny.

The diference is huge, bc lk have a fast low, and jc dont, dc is wayy better than rc bc of the stamina, and after any cancel he can link another fast move that dont whiff, jc better move that dont whiff is 11 frames 1 hit into rc.

Basically we can do 3 string max before running out of stamina and we have to do it perfect, lk cancels are way easier.

 

[rafaw]

Gezz, i wrote a big answer and lost it.

Looking at this data, what are the differences between DF Liu Kang and A-List JC?

Aside from F213 fb dash cancel being plus 6 or so, they seem to be the same on paper to me. MB Dragon Kick to be +2/ex Force Ball= +4.

They both armor break with b12/121? Good zoning/decent zoning, and a overhead that splats/one that juggles versus jabs strings that end overhead/low. So basically you block low vs Liu and high vs Johnny.

Basically we get whiff problens and our fastest mid is 11 frames, we can get 2 rc before running out of stamina, dc is way better than rc.

About the ex moves that leave +, lius is better bc of the startup of the follow up move, the window he leaves is smaller than JC even with de 2 frames diference in the EX moves.

And Lius cancels are way easier than Johnnys.

 

[Asodimazze]

Looking at this data, what are the differences between DF Liu Kang and A-List JC?

Aside from F213 fb dash cancel being plus 6 or so, they seem to be the same on paper to me. MB Dragon Kick to be +2/ex Force Ball= +4.

They both armor break with b12/121? Good zoning/decent zoning, and a overhead that splats/one that juggles versus jabs strings that end overhead/low. So basically you block low vs Liu and high vs Johnny.

1) b12 breaks armor far better than 121...there is no comparison

2) Cage normals are much slower than Liu, he doesn't have any 6 frame string and his fastest mid is 11.

3) Liu Kang gets an insane advantage out of dash cancels, Johnny has some advantage after 4SKDC but is not so good, and he can't loop it. Liu Kang dash cancel pressure is really broken actually, a lot of characters (cage included) can't do anything but armor to counter it.

4) Liu Kang zoning is far better than Cage one, he is one of the top 5-6 zoners in the game.

5) He can loop his strings very easily, Cage SKRC pressure is execution heavy (and less effective). Since the game is not just theory this is very important...locking the opponent with something like 333SKRC, f24SKRC, f3xxEXfireballs is extremely though. No one can do it consistently.

6) Liu has far better air normals, a throw that is +11 on hit, and one of the best uppercuts in the game. Cage throw is +3-4, his air normals suck, his uppercut sucks.

7) Liu MB Dragon Kick is +2 and Cage EX fireballs are +4, but MD Dragon Kick doesn't have pushback and Liu can keep on pressing buttons...Cage EX fireballs don't help him much, thanks to the pushback he can only go for F3 but the opponent has many counters to that, even without armor.

8) Liu has great mobility. His backwalk and jumps are great...Cage has a good run but other than that his mobility sucks. Worst jump in the game, average back walk.

9) Liu Kang does more damage.

10) Liu Kang is much safer than Cage. It's very hard to punish Liu on something, if at all.

11) From what I know Liu doesn't have any relevant whiffing problem, Cage is full of it.

 

[KHAOTIC_SWIFT]

An a list combo vid...hope it helps a few of u

 

[Derptile]

1) b12 breaks armor far better than 121...there is no comparison

2) Cage normals are much slower than Liu, he doesn't have any 6 frame string and his fastest mid is 11.

3) Liu Kang gets an insane advantage out of dash cancels, Johnny has some advantage after 4SKDC but is not so good, and he can't loop it. Liu Kang dash cancel pressure is really broken actually, a lot of characters (cage included) can't do anything but armor to counter it.

4) Liu Kang zoning is far better than Cage one, he is one of the top 5-6 zoners in the game.

5) He can loop his strings very easily, Cage SKRC pressure is execution heavy (and less effective). Since the game is not just theory this is very important...locking the opponent with something like 333SKRC, f24SKRC, f3xxEXfireballs is extremely though. No one can do it consistently.

6) Liu has far better air normals, a throw that is +11 on hit, and one of the best uppercuts in the game. Cage throw is +3-4, his air normals suck, his uppercut sucks.

7) Liu MB Dragon Kick is +2 and Cage EX fireballs are +4, but MD Dragon Kick doesn't have pushback and Liu can keep on pressing buttons...Cage EX fireballs don't help him much, thanks to the pushback he can only go for F3 but the opponent has many counters to that, even without armor.

8) Liu has great mobility. His backwalk and jumps are great...Cage has a good run but other than that his mobility sucks. Worst jump in the game, average back walk.

9) Liu Kang does more damage.


11) From what I know Liu doesn't have any relevant whiffing problem, Cage is full of it.

1) Cage has frame advantage off normals without SKRCs

2) Cage has an Armored launcher

3) Cage has a much better neutral game thanks to F3 SKRC

4) Cage can end every combo with nutpunch and continue his pressure game.

5) Against Liu Kang you block low and you're safe from most of his options. Against Cage you block low and you'll get opened up by f2, block high and he gets to assault you with his SKRCs to the fullest.

6) Liu Kang has plenty of whiff problems

7)Both characters have absolutely garbage Air attacks due to their ground game being so strong.

I'm not saying A-list Cage is better than Dragon's Fire Liu Kang because he isn't, but A-List has plenty of his own strengths which make him a great character.

Dragon's Fire Roo Kang= S tier
A-List Cage= A+ tier

 

[Lone]

Thanks for the replies, @Derptile and @Asodimazze. It seems Cage has to instill more fear and block more/risk armor breaking. Or use his ex nut punch on a read to condition further. Sounds like a pretty good character.

And Liu's fastest normals are his D2 at 7f, 1 8f, and B1 at 9. MB DK is good but you can poke him, armor him, or back dash after it depending on your character's tools.

Hopefully we see more representation of him at future tournaments.

Not derailing the thread any further.

 

[KHAOTIC_SWIFT]

1 bar 52% stunt double...pretty easy to land

 

[Name v.5.0]

1 bar 52% stunt double...pretty easy to land

That one is pretty cool, but I hate that they leave the corner.

There's like a 54%(I think) in the corner if you do: F24~EXGreenBalls, D1, 4~MRS, 4~MRS, 12, 114~Nut Punch.

 

[Asodimazze]

Can a mod please move all the post about Cage vs Kang in the Johnny Cage general discussion thread? thanks.

@Mikemetroid

 

[SylverRye]

1) b12 breaks armor far better than 121...there is no comparison

2) Cage normals are much slower than Liu, he doesn't have any 6 frame string and his fastest mid is 11.

3) Liu Kang gets an insane advantage out of dash cancels, Johnny has some advantage after 4SKDC but is not so good, and he can't loop it. Liu Kang dash cancel pressure is really broken actually, a lot of characters (cage included) can't do anything but armor to counter it.

4) Liu Kang zoning is far better than Cage one, he is one of the top 5-6 zoners in the game.

5) He can loop his strings very easily, Cage SKRC pressure is execution heavy (and less effective). Since the game is not just theory this is very important...locking the opponent with something like 333SKRC, f24SKRC, f3xxEXfireballs is extremely though. No one can do it consistently.

6) Liu has far better air normals, a throw that is +11 on hit, and one of the best uppercuts in the game. Cage throw is +3-4, his air normals suck, his uppercut sucks.

7) Liu MB Dragon Kick is +2 and Cage EX fireballs are +4, but MD Dragon Kick doesn't have pushback and Liu can keep on pressing buttons...Cage EX fireballs don't help him much, thanks to the pushback he can only go for F3 but the opponent has many counters to that, even without armor.

8) Liu has great mobility. His backwalk and jumps are great...Cage has a good run but other than that his mobility sucks. Worst jump in the game, average back walk.

9) Liu Kang does more damage.

10) Liu Kang is much safer than Cage. It's very hard to punish Liu on something, if at all.

11) From what I know Liu doesn't have any relevant whiffing problem, Cage is full of it.

1) b12 breaks armor far better than 121...there is no comparison

2) Cage normals are much slower than Liu, he doesn't have any 6 frame string and his fastest mid is 11.

3) Liu Kang gets an insane advantage out of dash cancels, Johnny has some advantage after 4SKDC but is not so good, and he can't loop it. Liu Kang dash cancel pressure is really broken actually, a lot of characters (cage included) can't do anything but armor to counter it.

4) Liu Kang zoning is far better than Cage one, he is one of the top 5-6 zoners in the game.

5) He can loop his strings very easily, Cage SKRC pressure is execution heavy (and less effective). Since the game is not just theory this is very important...locking the opponent with something like 333SKRC, f24SKRC, f3xxEXfireballs is extremely though. No one can do it consistently.

6) Liu has far better air normals, a throw that is +11 on hit, and one of the best uppercuts in the game. Cage throw is +3-4, his air normals suck, his uppercut sucks.

7) Liu MB Dragon Kick is +2 and Cage EX fireballs are +4, but MD Dragon Kick doesn't have pushback and Liu can keep on pressing buttons...Cage EX fireballs don't help him much, thanks to the pushback he can only go for F3 but the opponent has many counters to that, even without armor.

8) Liu has great mobility. His backwalk and jumps are great...Cage has a good run but other than that his mobility sucks. Worst jump in the game, average back walk.

9) Liu Kang does more damage.

10) Liu Kang is much safer than Cage. It's very hard to punish Liu on something, if at all.

11) From what I know Liu doesn't have any relevant whiffing problem, Cage is full of it.

lol what are you even saying? Most of this nonsense isn't even true

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

What exactly?

liu is shit in the air and idk wtf you were on about with the throw shit

 

[Asodimazze]

liu is shit in the air and idk wtf you were on about with the throw shit

What are you talking about....

1) Liu is shit in the air compared to who? Kung Lao and Kung Jin?
He is still 10 times better than Cage, who can't connect his jump punches on crouching opponent if not for a few frames. Cage is bottom 3 in jumping attacks.

2) Cage throw is one of the worst, Liu Kang throw is not. You can test for yourself how much advantage Liu has after his throw and then compare it to Johnny

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

What are you talking about....

1) Liu is shit in the air compared to who? Kung Lao and Kung Jin?
He is still 10 times better than Cage, who can't connect his jump punches on crouching opponent if not for a few frames. Cage is bottom 3 in jumping attacks.

2) Cage throw is one of the worst, Liu Kang throw is not. You can test for yourself how much advantage Liu has after his throw and then compare it to Johnny

@xarakamaka @Derptile @FOREVER EL1TE what is this guy on about?

 

[SylverRye]

What exactly?

Liu kang has horrible inconsistencies on 111,112,f44 and his dragons roar which is a mid that can be low profiled.

Nothing makes cages run cancels harder to do. Sk is bf4 and lius fb is bf1. Cage actually has more varied run cancel strings than liu but both of their run cancels require similar execution.

Liu is trash in the air and his fastest standing normal is a 6 frame jab that has no range, hits high and can be punished if you run cancel it..only thing i agree with is him being a better zoner than cage. He doesn't do more damage either..most you get with a bar is 37% into a soft knockdown. Cage nearly matches that and can nut punch into a restand. Also 11 on hit grab. ..what? Not trying to derail this thread, just read that and had to comment

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Liu kang has horrible inconsistencies on 111,112,f44 and his dragons roar which is a mid that can be low profiled.

Nothing makes cages run cancels harder to do. Sk is bf4 and lius fb is bf1. Cage actually has more varied run cancel strings than liu but both of their run cancels require similar execution.

Liu is trash in the air and his fastest standing normal is a 6 frame jab that has no range, hits high and can be punished if you run cancel it..only thing i agree with is him being a better zoner than cage. He doesn't do more damage either..most you get with a bar is 37% into a soft knockdown. Cage nearly matches that and can nut punch into a restand. Also 11 on hit grab. ..what? Not trying to derail this thread, just read that and had to comment

Yeah hes tripping