Match-up Discussion JimmyPotato Arrow Pre "Big Patch" Match Chart

[Red Reaper]

You can get by Doomdays trait by just savage blasting away. It stops any advancement he does and if he MB shoulders, then his trait deactivates.

I always used Savage Blast against his trait. Regular Arrows also work really well against it too!

Didn't know he would lose trait if MB Shoulder though. Good to know.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I think Batman is one of his worst match ups in the game. He wins up klose and far away... And kan do it all safely. Once you get in range it's all about reading J2's which leaves you open to more mix ups.

I don't think batman is worse than lex, superman or black adam. I feel the match is a lot closer than against those characters. The electric arrows help a lot in the long range game and helps close the distance. He doesn't really have any good wake up options after a knockdown either so it's a lot easier to keep momentum. Against lex, superman and adam it's extremely hard to keep momentum going even when you do get something going. Batman does have better pressure but push blocking helps so much, even when batman pushblocks I feel it leaves GA in a good position.

I could be wrong as RapZiLLa54 is the only batman player I've played extensively and maybe he's not taking advantage of certain aspects of the match. From what I've played though, those other characters give me way more trouble.

 

[Red Reaper]

I don't think batman is worse than lex, superman or black adam. I feel the match is a lot closer than against those characters. The electric arrows help a lot in the long range game and helps close the distance. He doesn't really have any good wake up options after a knockdown either so it's a lot easier to keep momentum. Against lex, superman and adam it's extremely hard to keep momentum going even when you do get something going. Batman does have better pressure but push blocking helps so much, even when batman pushblocks I feel it leaves GA in a good position.

I could be wrong as @Rapzilla is the only batman player I've played extensively and maybe he's not taking advantage of certain aspects of the match. From what I've played though, those other characters give me way more trouble.

Lex's Rushdown isn't that good. Lex wake up game is also limited. If he Corpse Charges, that's a full kombo punish. You kan pushblock against Lex too to remove his armor and then you're left klose to do damage.

Batman gives me significantly more trouble than Black Adam. With the right spacing you kan jump in on Adam and Air to Air him pretty well even if he dive kicks..

Batman kan be really safe with his Bats and on knockdown he kan still AA your jump so he's not exactly free on wake up. He kan also see your jump and choose not to wake up. Arrow doesn't have one answer that beats all his wake ups beside block and wait. And if you do that then you let him get away.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I would say Catwoman is 5-5

 

[rev0lver]

Lex's Rushdown isn't that good. Lex wake up game is also limited. If he Corpse Charges, that's a full kombo punish. You kan pushblock against Lex too to remove his armor and then you're left klose to do damage.

Lex's rushdown is so good with trait on. And the thing about pushblocking lex's armor is that it doesn't put me in any stun and I can hit you for free

I definitely agree with it being in Lex's favor, but I wouldn't decide on 6-4/7-3 so soon.

 

[Red Reaper]

Lex's rushdown is so good with trait on. And the thing about pushblocking lex's armor is that it doesn't put me in any stun and I can hit you for free

F*ck... lol..

Ok.. After debating against my fellow Arrow players, I'll just end it by taking your word for it. Haha.

 

[RexyWrecks]

Arrow vs NW = 5-5
Arrow vs BG = 5-5
Arrow vs GL = 5-5

Those three I'm sure of. There are still some debatable matchups on your list. I don't think that he loses to Wonder Woman either... Or Grundy. Come to think of it, I don't know if I agree with this matchup chart at all.

 

[SimSim]

Arrow vs NW = 5-5
Arrow vs BG = 5-5
Arrow vs GL = 5-5

Those three I'm sure of. There are still some debatable matchups on your list. I don't think that he loses to Wonder Woman either... Or Grundy. Come to think of it, I don't know if I agree with this matchup chart at all.

Solid arguments!

 

[ando1184]

Do you guys really think vs Cyborg it's 5-5? I don't because he just zones so well and the block stun on his standing fireball is so good that I can barely load arrows, and they're mid fireballs! by the time I do finally load we trade or i hit then have to immediately block the trade or he hits and I lose even more life. I think it's at least a 4-6 Cyborgs favor because of the 8% fireballs on hit and 2% chip.

 

[Espio]

Read your follow up post in this chart explaining you're dropping Arrow, that's a shame :/.

I'm actually curious, who are you picking up next?

 

[RexyWrecks]

Solid arguments!

There are too many matchups that I don't agree with to go in depth.

 

[Jimmypotato]

Do you guys really think vs Cyborg it's 5-5? I don't because he just zones so well and the block stun on his standing fireball is so good that I can barely load arrows, and they're mid fireballs! by the time I do finally load we trade or i hit then have to immediately block the trade or he hits and I lose even more life. I think it's at least a 4-6 Cyborgs favor because of the 8% fireballs on hit and 2% chip.

Yes, once I learned the match up, I believe it to be 5-5,

Arrow vs NW = 5-5
Arrow vs BG = 5-5
Arrow vs GL = 5-5

Those three I'm sure of. There are still some debatable matchups on your list. I don't think that he loses to Wonder Woman either... Or Grundy. Come to think of it, I don't know if I agree with this matchup chart at all.

What Nightwings do you play? That shit aint even. I used to think GL was 5-5, then I played a good GL. If you dont think he loses to grundy you havent played a complete one yet. Same with WW.

I don't think batman is worse than lex, superman or black adam. I feel the match is a lot closer than against those characters. The electric arrows help a lot in the long range game and helps close the distance. He doesn't really have any good wake up options after a knockdown either so it's a lot easier to keep momentum. Against lex, superman and adam it's extremely hard to keep momentum going even when you do get something going. Batman does have better pressure but push blocking helps so much, even when batman pushblocks I feel it leaves GA in a good position.

I could be wrong as RapZiLLa54 is the only batman player I've played extensively and maybe he's not taking advantage of certain aspects of the match. From what I've played though, those other characters give me way more trouble.

Honeslty man, a full on zoning batman can just fuck Arrow. you can't even get lightning Arrow loaded up for a trade. With His trait bats, Batarang and MB batarang, along with grapple hook. I haven't seen that many people Zone 100% effectivly with Batman, but when they do, by the time you get in, and have to deal with the rest of his shit, he is at life advantage that just cant be made up with Arrow. Also with no Viable AA option vs Batman when he goes on the offensive you just have to sit there and Block properly to just to try and get a D1~Arrow to get pressure going again which can be blown up, because Arrow lacks a good fast full punishing combo that cant be mashed out of without Ice Arrow loaded. King played this match up super good vs Chris G at summer Jam I think it was. The big problem here is needing to load an arrow in the first place.

5-5 match up in my opinion.


Her down 1 is excellent for dealing with his up close arrow pressure, wing evade 3 gets her in quickly as does mace charge, all of these are safe options. On top of that, trait and mace charge can be used to evade Green Arrow's regular and trait arrows effectively as I often do versus Green Arrow.

Hawkgirl's up close game is more than well suited to handle Green Arrow up close. She has decent speed mids some of which are plus 2 on block and things like that, she can stay in and be at advantage on a lot of things lke wing evade 3 and 2,2, up 3. She can always cancel into MB mace charge for advantage too. MB mace toss is also an option to get her in quickly.

Projectile trades are also in Hawkgirl's favor as mace toss does 8% and regular arrows do 1% ish and I'm pretty sure regular maces do more damage than one fire arrow too(and of course she can MB mace tosses for almost 20% damage). She can wing evade out of super set ups to due to invulnerability frames on the move.

She can also alter her jump and when she lands so avoiding arrows is a lot easier for her and she gets in at will pretty easily too. Once she gets a life lead she can evade a lot of his zoning really well while using her trait(and don't mean by just floating in the air to be clear). Her uppercut is great for dealing with jump in pressure and Green Arrow is also one of the few characters she outdamages midscreen.

Green Arrow doesn't stop her from using her trait, he just checks her from flying in carelessly.


I've played this match up like crazy with Chongo, who has a really good Green Arrow. We both agreed it was even.

Some great points and a great write up my friend, the reason I have this at 6-4 is because I can load Arrows and shoot them faster then you can do anything. Arrow can run like a bitch in this match better then Hawkgirl can, and with Fire Arrow being 8% it does well in this match up. SavageBlast allows me space to load arrows and I can do it with time to block Mace Charge since she seems to like doing a loop d loop to let you know she's coming in. Arrows forward Dash is also huge in this match for closing distance when she does try to get away and Arrow needs to make up life. Shooting tons of normal Arrows keeps the wing evade shenanigans down. And with the reach of J3 she can't really fly at all unless she is full screen and in that case I've already fired 3 fire arrows at dat ass. There are still a couple resets that wing evade does not get out of . I will revisit this match up for you though, as my last xp with a good hawk girl was about 60 matches a month ago. Chongo Plays Nightwing lol

PS, her D1 and her D2 are her best tools in this match up IMO. When I know people KNOW how to blow up D1~Arrow, then it's really fun, because I can just D1 to bait their D1 then Poke back to punish that, once I show that then the upclose and sweep to dash distance game becomes really fun, and not just a mash fest.

 

[RexyWrecks]

What Nightwings do you play? That shit aint even. I used to think GL was 5-5, then I played a good GL. If you dont think he loses to grundy you havent played a complete one yet. Same with WW.

I play against a really good nightwing all the time. GL is a tough matchup but he has no full screen presence. Grundy I have not played enough of, but I don't see it being in his favor. I play a really good WW as well and I think it's 5-5.

 

[RexyWrecks]

Also, Hawkgirl cannot wake up against GA. His arrows take priority.

 

[Red Reaper]

PS, her D1 and her D2 are her best tools in this match up IMO. When I know people KNOW how to blow up D1~Arrow, then it's really fun, because I can just D1 to bait their D1 then Poke back to punish that, once I show that then the upclose and sweep to dash distance game becomes really fun, and not just a mash fest.

Her D1 is only -1 and it's 6 frames so she kan do it again and trade.. Her D1 also wins the trade since she's +20 on hit while Arrow is only +9. Also she kan kancel it into Mace Charge or Wing Evade 2 or 3 and get good damage. Mace Charge MB is like 20%.

 

[ando1184]

Can we combine this thread with the other MU thread? I think we need all this information better organized, for one a lot of this "good" info that's finally being discussed and shared needs to be in those toggle boxes for the characters in the other MU thread. That would greatly help I think

 

[Jimmypotato]

No, if you jump it on reaction he cannot hit you even if he MBs it.

All J3s in this game are + on block when done at specific heights. At the apex of the jump they are +7-8.

The way J3s work is that they override antiairs at the cost of being - 4 or so when you land, but they also are double as + as a J2 if you do them late.

For example, at max height on a jump if you J3 with arrow you can D1 before anyone can do anything, this is tested with all chars who have a lengthy J3 against both flash and luthor, D1 arrow will beat any move outside of a super.

A late J3 to f2d13 is a true blockstring and cannot be supered even by superman.

This is what Chris G abuses and I'm surprised it isn't known, he basically uses it every time and catches people who don't know it with D1 arrow.

This is interesting, I thought the late J3 put you at Even at best, Either way, you have to be pretty close to hit your J3 into an actual combo if they don't block and BA does not lightning when you are Jump distance away. Also Damage for damage this means nothing because this is based of BA making a mistake not the actual tools of the match up. if he is stupid enough to do the lightning that close and I am waiting for it (because while yes it is reactable to for sure, you gotta be ready for it, because if you don't jump the second you see his arm go up you are getting hit) you get a J3

Off J3 I can do from 20-30% with 223
23% if I want a safe arrow load, 30 if I don't. And if I dial in the F2D1 string assuming he blocks and he doesn't then either the string drops or I get 20%.

The problem with the 223 is you can interrupt that after a blocked J3, I just tested it.

So to answer your original question, no I don't think it changes this match up from 3-7 because of the strength of everything else BA can do, and the ass balls damage Arrow has vs what BA can do.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Lex's Rushdown isn't that good. Lex wake up game is also limited. If he Corpse Charges, that's a full kombo punish. You kan pushblock against Lex too to remove his armor and then you're left klose to do damage.

Batman gives me significantly more trouble than Black Adam. With the right spacing you kan jump in on Adam and Air to Air him pretty well even if he dive kicks..

Batman kan be really safe with his Bats and on knockdown he kan still AA your jump so he's not exactly free on wake up. He kan also see your jump and choose not to wake up. Arrow doesn't have one answer that beats all his wake ups beside block and wait. And if you do that then you let him get away.

Against lex if you push block his armor it doesn't stop him at all yet you're stuck in push block animation waiting to get raped. Also on knockdown vs lex you have to respect his corpse charge which is very fast so you can't really dash up after a knockdown without eating it. Sure you can punish the corpse charge if you block it but if you wait for that he can wake up armor and fuck your life up.You can't jump on him after a knockdown either unless you're point blank range and even then the corpse charge hitbox will still get you.

Against batman you don't have to jump on his wake up. You can either wait for a parry/slide or pressure with any string. It's a basic guessing game with no added bullshit. Backdash is another option he has but if you know it's coming you can punish it.

 

[Qwark28]

This is interesting, I thought the late J3 put you at Even at best, Either way, you have to be pretty close to hit your J3 into an actual combo if they don't block and BA does not lightning when you are Jump distance away. Also Damage for damage this means nothing because this is based of BA making a mistake not the actual tools of the match up. if he is stupid enough to do the lightning that close and I am waiting for it (because while yes it is reactable to for sure, you gotta be ready for it, because if you don't jump the second you see his arm go up you are getting hit) you get a J3

Off J3 I can do from 20-30% with 223
23% if I want a safe arrow load, 30 if I don't. And if I dial in the F2D1 string assuming he blocks and he doesn't then either the string drops or I get 20%.

The problem with the 223 is you can interrupt that after a blocked J3, I just tested it.

So to answer your original question, no I don't think it changes this match up from 3-7 because of the strength of everything else BA can do, and the ass balls damage Arrow has vs what BA can do.

Main use for J3s that cant be turned to combos are crossups and setups, joker does teeth, arrow does reloads, lex does trait

 

[SimSim]

This is interesting, I thought the late J3 put you at Even at best, Either way, you have to be pretty close to hit your J3 into an actual combo if they don't block and BA does not lightning when you are Jump distance away. Also Damage for damage this means nothing because this is based of BA making a mistake not the actual tools of the match up. if he is stupid enough to do the lightning that close and I am waiting for it (because while yes it is reactable to for sure, you gotta be ready for it, because if you don't jump the second you see his arm go up you are getting hit) you get a J3

Off J3 I can do from 20-30% with 223
23% if I want a safe arrow load, 30 if I don't. And if I dial in the F2D1 string assuming he blocks and he doesn't then either the string drops or I get 20%.

The problem with the 223 is you can interrupt that after a blocked J3, I just tested it.

So to answer your original question, no I don't think it changes this match up from 3-7 because of the strength of everything else BA can do, and the ass balls damage Arrow has vs what BA can do.

You can do:
-Ice arrow is stocked-
j.3, 11 xx bb/db MB, j.3, 1 xx d4, j.2, 33 xx db4 - I like to end with j.2, 223 xx db4 (Whic puts you in range for a b2 on their wake up)

Both of these variations do 40% for 2 bars

 

[Jimmypotato]

Her D1 is only -1 and it's 6 frames so she kan do it again and trade.. Her D1 also wins the trade since she's +20 on hit while Arrow is only +9. Also she kan kancel it into Mace Charge or Wing Evade 2 or 3 and get good damage. Mace Charge MB is like 20%.

Dis is true, gotta hit that shit to the frame, but yah it would trade if they were mashing D1. Honestly, the best bet alotta times when I play Arrow now vs People that know and want to blow up D1~Arrow on block is to D1 Savage blast.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Honeslty man, a full on zoning batman can just fuck Arrow. you can't even get lightning Arrow loaded up for a trade. With His trait bats, Batarang and MB batarang, along with grapple hook. I haven't seen that many people Zone 100% effectivly with Batman, but when they do, by the time you get in, and have to deal with the rest of his shit, he is at life advantage that just cant be made up with Arrow. Also with no Viable AA option vs Batman when he goes on the offensive you just have to sit there and Block properly to just to try and get a D1~Arrow to get pressure going again which can be blown up, because Arrow lacks a good fast full punishing combo that cant be mashed out of without Ice Arrow loaded. King played this match up super good vs Chris G at summer Jam I think it was. The big problem here is needing to load an arrow in the first place.

I know how it feels to fight batman laming out arrow, it can be tough. I feel with good blocking and a normal arrow hit you can get a safe load though. Obviously it can be a total bitch with trait, batarangs and ect but I don't think it's 7-3, at least not yet. It could be a 6-4 match though.

 

[Jimmypotato]

IDK i just zone you out all game and i can out space you with b1. you cant do anything the whole game. your character sucks.

I dissagree I can dash in after ducking your fireballs, yes you can MB for the over head so I have to stand block it, but the push back isn't enough to keep me out, Arrows forward dash to stronk. Also teleport is easy to blow up. This is why I have it at 5-5. Also Blocked B1 is punished by D1 Arrow.

 

[Jimmypotato]

Also, Hawkgirl cannot wake up against GA. His arrows take priority.

Yes actually, great point that I forgot to mention, normal Arrow does fuck her up on wake up.

 

[Jimmypotato]

I know how it feels to fight batman laming out arrow, it can be tough. I feel with good blocking and a normal arrow hit you can get a safe load though. Obviously it can be a total bitch with trait, batarangs and ect but I don't think it's 7-3, at least not yet. It could be a 6-4 match though.

Thats the thing that sucks the nuts, getting that one to hit, with the speed that Bats activates trait, and and how fast he gets just one bat and the effectivness of that one bat, I dunno man, just feels hopeless. I actually prefer rush down Batmans, them I can deal with better then the zoning.