Jade General Discussion Thread

[mercureXI]

We had some Jade on stream during Summit.

These matches remind of what I said here ... unfortunately ... https://testyourmight.com/threads/jade-general-discussion-thread.69285/post-2495867

Vs Subzero : 1st match as Kitana then 2-0 as Jade

Vs Erron : 2-0 then character switch

 

[GLoRToR]

We had some Jade on stream during Summit.

These matches remind of what I said here ... unfortunately ... https://testyourmight.com/threads/jade-general-discussion-thread.69285/post-2495867

Vs Subzero : 1st match as Kitana then 2-0 as Jade

Vs Erron : 2-0 then character switch

Wait until people learn to punish Glow and her other gimmicks.

 

[mercureXI]

DJT kinda did.

Slide prevented a few Glow activations and he used it to punish air glaives.

I think I didnt see a single f21 land.

In 4 matches.

That's how slow that thing is.

I rarely catch experienced people with that myself outside punishing rolls.

Good thing it's not our launcher ... oh wait ...

 

[jmt]

F21 and B12 are sooo bad it hurts

 

[Espio]

F21 and B12 are sooo bad it hurts

Design of both moves is just backwards. Back 1,2 having a giant gap and being -19 is nonsensical. If it's gonna have a giant gap it should be safe and it can't even be staggered safely. You have to make a precise read on a whiff punish with it and the reward is low damage too. That's the big problem. String balance is out of whack. A bunch of stacked cons and a strength or so. You're better off just using 1,2,4 for a safe ranged check and at least if blocked at any point you are safe with Krushing blow potential.

 

[jmt]

Yea they are both very strange. I hope they do something to fix them.

 

[THTB]

DJT's reads were on point in that first match of KP using Jade, and he had a great strategy of not giving KP a free shot at glow by avoiding using ice ball, instead opting to always having an opening to stuff or punish stuff with slide. The reason I say reads, though...you can tell he had KP's timing picked apart when he's legit doing AI level answers to stuff like straight glaive and sliding well before KP has jumped. I do think this match highlights a lot of what Sub can do vs Jade, but it's also a great show of how cerebral DJT is, as well as familiarity with her toolset. I think a Jade that matches his level of play wouldn't be as smothered, but I also don't think one has emerged at all, yet.

However, that second game with Jade, KP played her much, much better. DJT still had the reads and reactions well placed, but he started to play a lot more ideal, using d4 more and playing with air glaive at closer ranges so that DJT was less likely to read them.

I'm not saying I'd do much better, if even be remotely competitive against DJT's Sub at all. But I definitely think the skill gap was very noteworthy, and a Sub like that is scary in general.

 

[Rabid Justice]

Turns out I was using pole vault all wrong.

This thing is a monster on knock down and has crazy good wall carrier after a launcher or long stagger attacks on hit.

With the right timing it can completely shut down some characters wake ups. Only forward roll can void it. That leaves them right in jades range. Which then open up the run cancel. 212 becomes a solid punishes that start her offense.

 

[mercureXI]

DJT's reads were on point in that first match of KP using Jade, and he had a great strategy of not giving KP a free shot at glow by avoiding using ice ball, instead opting to always having an opening to stuff or punish stuff with slide. The reason I say reads, though...you can tell he had KP's timing picked apart when he's legit doing AI level answers to stuff like straight glaive and sliding well before KP has jumped. I do think this match highlights a lot of what Sub can do vs Jade, but it's also a great show of how cerebral DJT is, as well as familiarity with her toolset. I think a Jade that matches his level of play wouldn't be as smothered, but I also don't think one has emerged at all, yet.

However, that second game with Jade, KP played her much, much better. DJT still had the reads and reactions well placed, but he started to play a lot more ideal, using d4 more and playing with air glaive at closer ranges so that DJT was less likely to read them.

I'm not saying I'd do much better, if even be remotely competitive against DJT's Sub at all. But I definitely think the skill gap was very noteworthy, and a Sub like that is scary in general.

Exactly what I was saying pages ago : a smart subzero doesnt shoot first so that you can never use iceball to glow.

Yet another match where we can clearly see that Jade has 2 tools : air glaive and d4.

The rest is close to useless and never really used here. Further proving her kit has glaring issues and needs to be redesigned a bit, frame data wise.

That's the reason why Erron's match went so ugly : he doesnt care about air glaives since he has gun parry and he can get in whenever he wants with f4 or run boots.

Her matchups against top tier characters are really bad overall IMO :

• subzero is a pain as we just saw (slide can punish both ground and air glaives, good mixups and better trades, can even use his air axe to counter our zoning)
• erron shrugs at her whole kit
• geras has a harder time getting in, depending on how well he can use his sand traps and geysers, but once he gets in, he deals enough damage on mixups to erase life leads (chip damage mostly, lets be honest here)
• Scorpion is her worst matchup
• Sonya can hit her through glow with her drone and win the zoning war if smart with air mb down and double grounded shots. (See subzero)

She can handle a few mid-high tier characters quite well though, like Baraka.

Very bad choice for a tourney overall. On paper.

 

[Hot_DNA]

It's so many matches where I am completely dominating and I look up and I only took like 25% of their life.... They hit me with one combo and do 35%....It is the most frustrating thing in the world

 

[Miasmata123]

Design of both moves is just backwards. Back 1,2 having a giant gap and being -19 is nonsensical. If it's gonna have a giant gap it should be safe and it can't even be staggered safely. You have to make a precise read on a whiff punish with it and the reward is low damage too. That's the big problem. String balance is out of whack. A bunch of stacked cons and a strength or so. You're better off just using 1,2,4 for a safe ranged check and at least if blocked at any point you are safe with Krushing blow potential.

I believe the intent was to give Jade a 50/50 on b12 and b1xxEdenian Spark and it was balanced around this use. I could be wrong though.

B12 is 21f start up, while Edenian Spark is 20f. Distance works into the actual frames for Spark to hit, but in the corner it would likely be very difficult to fuzzy. In return, it was made highly unsafe in line with a lot of other mix up abilities.

The big difference being most characters with mix up strings have one safe option, but both b1xxEdenian Spark and b12 are unsafe. I could see this being done just due to how much range Jade has on this 50/50, and they wanted to make sure she was punishable by everyone when they guessed right.

Edit: again, not saying I'm right, or if I am that it is good design. I think most highly skilled players could just react but I dunno. Just throwing it out there really.

 

[Phr4nk]

Turns out I was using pole vault all wrong.

This thing is a monster on knock down and has crazy good wall carrier after a launcher or long stagger attacks on hit.

With the right timing it can completely shut down some characters wake ups. Only forward roll can void it. That leaves them right in jades range. Which then open up the run cancel. 212 becomes a solid punishes that start her offense.

This sounds rad. A very different play style than the Jade I’ve been playing. Do you have any match footage?

 

[tigerija]

My Jade's has her 3, high kick, that looks like mid. When her B3 move animation looks like it hits higher but is mid...
Looks very confusing.
Hope they change the animation...

 

[GLoRToR]

It's sad that this character's almost every normal is trash and almost every universal special is unsafe to the point of more risk to use than reward.
Only her air-glaive, d4, d2, bf1, b3 and string are any good and the last 4 in the string has a gigantic gap. 1 and 2, and their strings are average, 3 and 4 are trash and 4,3 is a gimmick.
f3 is too slow at i16 for how t-rex limb range it is, the string is average.
f2 is the worst button in the game, f21 is trash, b1 is too negative for what it is, b12 is trash.
d1 is 7f and painfully average.

Her wakeups are literal trash especially her launcher is laughably bad.

This entire character needs a rework to be competitive with the rest of the cast.

 

[mercureXI]

I believe the intent was to give Jade a 50/50 on b12 and b1xxEdenian Spark and it was balanced around this use. I could be wrong though.

B12 is 21f start up, while Edenian Spark is 20f. Distance works into the actual frames for Spark to hit, but in the corner it would likely be very difficult to fuzzy. In return, it was made highly unsafe in line with a lot of other mix up abilities.

The big difference being most characters with mix up strings have one safe option, but both b1xxEdenian Spark and b12 are unsafe. I could see this being done just due to how much range Jade has on this 50/50, and they wanted to make sure she was punishable by everyone when they guessed right.

Edit: again, not saying I'm right, or if I am that it is good design. I think most highly skilled players could just react but I dunno. Just throwing it out there really.

Your analysis is right. And it would have been perfect actually if all characters were designed with the same balance in mind.

Problem being, she gets close to nothing out of both options, while Sonya and her unfuzzyable 50/50 (and way faster options) can get 50% damage off her options.

When you see Erron, a character that has about everything you'd need (f4 to get in, great zoning and anti-zoning tools, great mixups, great throw game, damage over time, stance cancels, etc) being able to LAUNCH people off his 7f frame startup string (as if he needed this anyway), you know that there's a problem somewhere anyway with Jade's toolkit.

----
Jade would go a long way with her b,f,2 safe (-5) on block and being a launcher with meter (can't MB on block) ... too bad we don't work at NRS ...
----

 

[GLoRToR]

Why do we even need a b3 when 3 itself leads to nothing. Small things like that.

 

[jmt]

Did anyone see Waz trying to play Jade a the Summit of Time today??? It was painfully obvious that he had no chance to win.

 

[GLoRToR]

Did anyone see Waz trying to play Jade a the Summit of Time today??? It was painfully obvious that he had no chance to win.

What's happening on your profile pic lol

 

[jmt]

What's happening on your profile pic lol

It's the album "Monolith of Inhumanity" by Cattle Decapitation. One of the best metal albums ever. The vocalist is well known in the metal world because he can do everything. He also did the voices for the freakers in that new game Days Gone.

 

[Miasmata123]

It's sad that this character's almost every normal is trash and almost every universal special is unsafe to the point of more risk to use than reward.
Only her air-glaive, d4, d2, bf1, b3 and string are any good and the last 4 in the string has a gigantic gap. 1 and 2, and their strings are average, 3 and 4 are trash and 4,3 is a gimmick.
f3 is too slow at i16 for how t-rex limb range it is, the string is average.
f2 is the worst button in the game, f21 is trash, b1 is too negative for what it is, b12 is trash.
d1 is 7f and painfully average.

Her wakeups are literal trash especially her launcher is laughably bad.

This entire character needs a rework to be competitive with the rest of the cast.

Did you really leave out Edenian Spark as one of her good buttons?

Shadow Kick is amazing, as once your opponent finally makes it close to you they have to fear being kicked out again by Shadow Kick. Butterfly is garbage idk what the point of it is. Good corner carry? Eh I'd rather not push my luck against most of the cast by getting them near a corner.

Jade's normals are pretty damn amazing. The fact that you listed so many normals as being good says a lot considering most characters only have a few good buttons.

As I've tried to explain to you before, EVERY positive on block string has a gap, including Jade's b3434. Some can be poked out of, some open the user up to a full combo punish (though in this case theres usually a mind game going on, like Liu parry). I'm pretty sure Jade's is just flawless blockable. Why are you still complaining that Jade doesn't get special treatment?

Her b3 is easily in the top 10 mids of the game, leading to positive block advantage and safely staggerable. At 11f and -2 on block with decent range it is hard to get much better than that. This is saying a lot for a character with such strong zoning and space control to also have a pressure string.

You think 124 is "average"? An average 7f high leading to a low with that much range and krushing blow, with the ability to decide if you advance or not is amazing. It's easily one of her most versatile strings.

For f3-the average low starter is like 14 or 15 frames, and most are stubby. Jade's f3 is barely below average, and at the end of the day not every one of her buttons needs to be amazing. It has its uses (I like to use it in the corner). Mind you many characters do not have a low starter for their strings.

For her d1-at 7 frames it is upper average. You can't go any lower unless you wanna hit broken tier. 11f of hit advantange is upper average. Only -4 on block too. I'm actually surprised her d1 is so good considering how good she is from afar as well.

The more I look at it the more I realize Jade's frames are amazing. If you looked around you might see that too.

 

[Miasmata123]

Your analysis is right. And it would have been perfect actually if all characters were designed with the same balance in mind.

Problem being, she gets close to nothing out of both options, while Sonya and her unfuzzyable 50/50 (and way faster options) can get 50% damage off her options.

When you see Erron, a character that has about everything you'd need (f4 to get in, great zoning and anti-zoning tools, great mixups, great throw game, damage over time, stance cancels, etc) being able to LAUNCH people off his 7f frame startup string (as if he needed this anyway), you know that there's a problem somewhere anyway with Jade's toolkit.

----
Jade would go a long way with her b,f,2 safe (-5) on block and being a launcher with meter (can't MB on block) ... too bad we don't work at NRS ...
----

I think you're right, but ibthink that's more a statement about how broken those characters are than how weak Jade is.

I don't disagree that b12 is not amazing, but the potential for a raw oh/low mix up in this game like that is fairly rare. If you look at say Kollector or Kabal the 50/50 is almost their entire power budget. Maybe Kabal is more powerful but he's so underplayed so I dunno.

Many characters' only way to open people up is to devise 50/50s between grab/attack, often with pressure terminating on the grab. They have to risk a nice uppercut KB to get 140 damage. Outside of maybe 7 characters, if you know how to block their strings and react to the slow overhead you can't be opened up by attacks alone.
Some characters dont even have an overhead outside of hops. I think the staggers those characters have are stronger than oh/low mix up but we'll see.

Then you have Erron, Sonya, Geras, and Sub with 50/50, strong zoning, staggers, complete control over neutral blah blah. They are just playing a different game then everyone else. Their mix up is barely even notable compared to all the other shit they have.

They will be nerfed, it's not worth splitting hairs that Jade isn't as good as them. Few characters are. Idk who the hell thought they were well balanced.

Personally, I think a zoner with such strong keep away like Jade having a 50/50 option at that range requires it be weak for balance. You finally make it in on her and suddenly you're flipping coins from almost midscreen to survive? Im not sure that every character has a way to full combo punish even -20f from that range.


Thinking about it, the f21/b12 spark mix up allows Jade to continue pressuring an enemy at a range her projectiles would get immediately punished. Or maybe it was designed to give Jade a last ditch effort to get knockdown and reestablish space against an enemy getting too close. Maybe it's not the best tool, but it's one that 75% characters do not have.

 

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Turns out I was using pole vault all wrong.

This thing is a monster on knock down and has crazy good wall carrier after a launcher or long stagger attacks on hit.

With the right timing it can completely shut down some characters wake ups. Only forward roll can void it. That leaves them right in jades range. Which then open up the run cancel. 212 becomes a solid punishes that start her offense.

I haven't played Jade much, but tried Jaded simply b/c I like the name lol. I've been using pole vault wrong too. But is this the only benefit Jaded has over Emerald Defender? I'm told Emerald Defender is basically the superior variation b/c you keep that low special for mixups (which I can see now after some quick labbing). Is it as simple as better mixups vs better oki?

 

[Miasmata123]

I haven't played Jade much, but tried Jaded simply b/c I like the name lol. I've been using pole vault wrong too. But is this the only benefit Jaded has over Emerald Defender? I'm told Emerald Defender is basically the superior variation b/c you keep that low special for mixups (which I can see now after some quick labbing). Is it as simple as better mixups vs better oki?

The thing about pole vault is if used on a blocked string or raw the enemy can d2 you mid animation. It's easier for some characters than others but if the enemy knows to do it then it really puts a damper on the fun :/

 

[Elias6999]

Exactly what I was saying pages ago : a smart subzero doesnt shoot first so that you can never use iceball to glow.

Yet another match where we can clearly see that Jade has 2 tools : air glaive and d4.

The rest is close to useless and never really used here. Further proving her kit has glaring issues and needs to be redesigned a bit, frame data wise.

That's the reason why Erron's match went so ugly : he doesnt care about air glaives since he has gun parry and he can get in whenever he wants with f4 or run boots.

Her matchups against top tier characters are really bad overall IMO :

• subzero is a pain as we just saw (slide can punish both ground and air glaives, good mixups and better trades, can even use his air axe to counter our zoning)
• erron shrugs at her whole kit
• geras has a harder time getting in, depending on how well he can use his sand traps and geysers, but once he gets in, he deals enough damage on mixups to erase life leads (chip damage mostly, lets be honest here)
• Scorpion is her worst matchup
• Sonya can hit her through glow with her drone and win the zoning war if smart with air mb down and double grounded shots. (See subzero)

She can handle a few mid-high tier characters quite well though, like Baraka.

Very bad choice for a tourney overall. On paper.

Am I crazy for thinking the Geras matchup is in her favor or at least 5-5? Her air glaive is a huge pain in the ass for him, and it shuts down most of his ranged tools.

 

[Rabid Justice]

Emerald defender is the easier load out to understand. The low projectile checks a lot of things in the game. And the up glaive get people to stop blindly jumping at you. Air glaive gives her a lot of mobility and enables her to jump in. And her dash kick has the ability to change side.

Jaded basically looses the ability to force people to you and counter zone. And her projectile is almost useless by itself. Way to much start up and hits high. Most things will just beat it out. This reduces her ability to throw glow up. And when she does get it up who cares. Pole vault can be good on wake and wall carrier. But those set up don’t happen often. This variation does have some things in it. Just plays completely different then emerald defender and will take a bit more time to get fleshed out.