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Jade General Discussion Thread

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
I took that tone intentionally. As I've said before it's because i think someone throwing that crap out there with "reo thinks Jade is C tier" is just disgraceful to his analysis of her. The spirit of that tier is what reo thinks should be the goal for NRS balance team not that they are bad. It's a mid tier and that's really nothing to be alarmist over in my opinion.




Dafuq did we watch the same video? Dude does work and goes 2/3 and 1/3 with some insanely close matches against a character everyone is calling broken, makes it to the grand finals with some notable players and you say she cant compete? He comes out stating the match up is 5/5 and your only takeaway is "Jade cant compete"?


This is where our major disagreement lies and that's fine. While I think it's more appropriate to nerf outliers than buff the "balanced" characters, you think the other way. I think Jade could see some love or some changes but more on the minor side than having a 20f overhead midscreen launcher (or 21f low midscreen launcher like you propose for her 124).
Oh that tone was used -on purpose- ?

Then that makes it ok right ?

Just dont come -whining- about Glortor's "tone" when you do worse, respect is a 2-ways street.

Anyway ... let's move on ...

About the Geras match :

Jade spending 90% of her match doing nothing but jump air rang and d4, just to get destroyed once up close, is exactly the problem here.

The match was close because Geras only started to use geysers on the 4th match, and never really neutral hopped over air rangs nor perfect blocked them. That's key to not being forced to block and using Jade's landing frames to her disadvantage. Pushing her in the corner even faster.

On one side you have Jade that can barely use any of her tools.
On the other side, someone that won without even using all of his tools until late in the set, and that can use mixups and deal real damage when he does.

That matchup will get harder for Jade as time passes and as he learns to use geysers more precisely. And he doesnt even have a teleport, mind you.

If a character being forced to use 2 moves, that both lead to nothing, one being variation locked, the other being a single d4, doesnt prove the fact that the struggle is real and that her kit needs to be redesigned a bit ... I dont know what to tell you ...
 
Regarding her f+4 hopping over low pokes... does that include d+1s as well?

Also does her parry counter throws? I played against a Kano player the other day and his parry was countering my throws. :-/
 

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
Regarding her f+4 hopping over low pokes... does that include d+1s as well?

Also does her parry counter throws? I played against a Kano player the other day and his parry was countering my throws. :-/
D1 is a mid. Wont work.

Her counter works on throws.
 

DarksydeDash

You know me as RisingShieldBro online.
Gotta say.. the Cetrion MU seems very weird.

She has multiple options to check glow but you can really bully her with Edenian Wind until she goes into the air to use her flamethrower.

Air Glaive seems really powerful in this MU, but I can see Pole Vault having it's own advantage with running through her zoning for a punish.
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
I've been taking Jade for a spin in kasual matches to use kustom variations and I'm here to say that my original thought rings 100% true: Jade suffers almost entirely from her variation limitations in ranked. I'm gunna break down my experience with each of her available variation abilities and close out with what I feel Jade needs most right now.

NOTE: I have not done any playtesting with Pole Vault Cancel so I am not going to speak on it. I've gotten lab AND online match time in all the other abilities, though, so I'll speak on them accordingly.

Score: 9/10
Pros: floats aerial opponents when enhanced, interrupts jump arc, decently safe depending on matchup / range / height.
Cons: doesn't hit close opponents, only enhanced one goes full screen, can be punished by charging specials (Jax, Jacqui, Liu, etc.)
Overall: borderline mandatory if you're looking to play Jade almost exclusively keep-away and screen management.

Score: 3.5/10
Pros: enhanced one loops to keep grounded opponents from advancing, floats aerial opponents for followup, allows for great zoning mindgames
Cons: mediocre startup speed (14f), very specific area of air control limits its usage, only hits grounded opponents at full screen
Overall: not as bad as everyone (myself included) made it out to be, but definitely not a worthwhile option with only 3 variation slots available.

Score: 10/10
Pros: special-cancelable low option, only -13 on block and can be delay-enhanced for an extra hit and only -7 if blocked, adds mind games to all her strings at close range, +8 on hit gives you the chance to reposition or pressure further
Cons: requires meter to be safe, has to be decently close to hit
Overall: with Butterfly in such a state that it may as well be ignored, Delia's Dance comes through as easily the best option Jade has in her variation arsenal. It plugs an excessive number of holes in her close range game and gives her something else worth spending offensive meter on.

Score: 1/10
Pros: reflects projectiles, enhancement makes it last longer and turns it into a -7f mid launcher, can be enhanced twice
Cons: 14f startup with input delay and potential lag means that faster projectiles like Liu's fireball give you maybe a half-second window at FULLSCREEN to react and reflect, ends itself after reflecting one projectile, launch property on enhancement requires sitting there for about a second before it will enhance + launch
Overall: pointless, especially since it replaces glow. If its startup were faster (like 8-10f), I could see it as being potentially useful. Also, it's really sad that NRS decided that THIS would be the enhanced launcher for Jade. There's literally not a single string that can combo into the launcher for this.

Score: 8/10
Pros: safe on block (-4), fantastic mind games in block string scenarios due to its "safety," respectable damage and has its own KB on enhancement
Cons: can be scouted out / reacted to due to the long frames before it hits, makes Jade entirely defenseless while running
Overall: a damn good option for safety and damage in Jade's close up gameplan. One must be wary of being blown up if using it too predictably, though (which is basically Jade's entire MO).

Score: 4.5/10
Pros: special-cancelable low option, a nice extra tool for Jade's zoning game which is rough normally with only her 20f startup regular razor-rang, keeps opponents from simply ducking your zoning game while also forcing mind games for attempts to jump over it
Cons: no enhancement option, 20f startup while only being about average projectile speed, -23 on block means it being a mixup option is just a really bad gimmick
Overall: a decent addition to Jade's zoning options, but nothing to write home about. Patient opponents will rarely be affected by the mind games as they'll jump on reaction as opposed to attempting to preemptively jump, and you will likely get only a few instances of getting to safely use it as a close mixup option before you have to stop entirely due to being blown up.

Score: 0/10
Pros: makes Jade stay on the same side
Cons: makes Jade stay on the same side
Overall: it just makes Jade stay on the same side which can be good or bad depending on the scenario. No bonus damage, doesn't make it safe, barely changes gameplay, is entirely subjective if it's actually helpful -- the fact that this requires a variation slot is a travesty.

Score: 6.5/10
Pros: special-cancelable low option, only -9 on block while also having enough pushback that an opponent can't D1 punish it consistently (except Kitana), enhancement is a full-screen teleport low that's -7, great mindgames both close and far due to teleport shenanigans
Cons: 20f startup with 32f recovery (wiff and die), 27f startup when enhanced which means it's interruptible on reaction (though very unlikely), low range on regular version makes it only useful at very close range
Overall: a much-needed teleport option for matchups like Skarlet/Noob/Cetrion, but also a decent block string option with its notable pushback. Not anything amazing, but not bad by any means.

Score: 5/10
Pros: wiggle stick string has INSANE range with the third hit being a low, 322 is safe (-5) and 322D1 is only -10 while having good pushback, 432 is relatively safe (-7) and allows for a safer hit-confirm option off 43 (432 when blocked, 43special when not)
Cons: wiggle stick string is insanely unsafe due to its startup speed and the fact that you have to commit to the WHOLE thing (and it starts off a high), 322/322D1 start off an 11f high, 432 starts off a 13f high
Overall: none of these combo strings add much to Jade's gameplay save for, of course, the extremely unsafe one. Overall not that bad, but nothing here is worth the variation slot in my opinion.

With all the above said, here are the changes I think would put Jade in the absolute perfect spot as a balanced mid-range character. I considered my proposed changes both in a vacuum alone and in conjunction with each other in both a kustom variation and tournament variation environment. The ideas below have the goals of pushing Jade's current strengths further without making them too overbearing, giving Jade players the option of plugging some of her gameplay holes via her variations, and give Jade players the ability to vary their gameplay styles by making the variation skill options more competitive with each other.

  1. Deadly Butterfly needs an enhancement option that launches. Make the move -16 on block (both regular and enhanced) to compensate. Butterfly being a universal launch option would make Delia's Dance no longer absolutely mandatory and would allow different Jade players the ability to have notably different playstyles (combo vs. blockstring mixup). May need to include high damage scaling after using the enhanced launcher so Jade doesn't get too much of a damage increase in all her gameplay. The launcher is more to give Jade a nice punishment option because she currently has none, not suddenly make her a combo character.
  2. Lower Glow's startup from 45f to 20f so she can more easily Glow on reaction. Keep recovery as it is as she should be blown up for it if scouted (maybe even increase recovery some to make up for the faster startup).
  3. Lower Parry's startup to 9f to put it in line with other parries. Lower the hit advantage so she can't pressure as easily if it lands to make up for the faster speed.
  4. Make B1 safe on block when used at optimal range (about -9) to make it a notable "check" in the neutral. It's still pokeable if used up close when -9 so she'll lose her turn in close range.
  5. Make B2 (wiggle stick) a mid but increase its block disadvantage to compensate. This will allow more special cancel opportunities in the neutral while also allowing more mind games between Jade and her opponent with wiggle stick being so unsafe yet always a threat.
  6. As Glortor has said many a time, make F21 (both hits) have active hitboxes for the full downward swings so they can catch aerial opponents. Keep frames as they are because this string's range is obscene and would be that much more crazy if opponents couldn't ever really jump it.

  1. EDIT: Lower Up Razor-Rang's startup from 14f to 12f. Make Up Razor-Rang's secondary arc (after its apex) no longer go as low so it catches more air area. The negative compensation here would be that its new arc would NEVER hit grounded opponents (even full screen) except via its enhanced one.
  2. Lower Divine Forces' startup frames to 8-10f tops. Remove the launch property from enhancement and instead make its enhancement instantly usable AND continue to deflect multiple projectiles. Maybe make deflected projectiles do more damage, though I'm unsure if that's necessary.
  3. Lower Edenian Spark's start-up and increase its projectile speed slightly. Keep it unsafe on block as it should be more a zoning tool than a mixup tool. She deserves to be blown up if she attempts to use it as a gimmick.
  4. Amplify Blazing Nitro Kick needs any number of different things. Bonus damage, safety, make the initial kick a mid, instantly results in the KB if both land -- pick one or more.
  5. Increase the range of Vanishing Winds' regular ground wave thingy by a small amount that's enough to allow it to hit after things like B1 and B2 when the attacks are used from a few steps away. Increase block disadvantage to make up for it, especially considering its great block pushback.

Edit: minor edits for sentence structure clarity. Also removed my buff for regular razor-rang that I had sitting in variation moves and replaced it with my intended Up Razor-Rang buff. Unsure what the hell I was thinking when I wrote that.
 
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Been lab’n with Jade for a few minutes. F4 on hit makes b343 a frame trap. However, when the opponent crouch blocks the 2nd mid whiffs completely. They can jab punish as well.

This should be noted. I hate when mids can be low profiled lol.
 

Bobbyxton_

It's Official
Having tonnes of fun with Jade and loving the way she's able to dictate spacing and speed of games. She's an absolute beast in the corner, just keep outside of wake up distance for you to b2 or f21 and you're golden. Must be so frustrating for the opposition (hilarious for me though).

Although it's not safe, i've found some good mindgames with f4 and f34 (although having f4 as an overhead would be fantastic), with f4 being great for negating people jumping back and dodging low pokes, and f3 looking janky making people second guess.

Couple of things, would have loved for a better instant hop overhead animation. When i'm trying to pressure and avoid low pokes, and go to my hop overhead, it doesn't seem too satisfying with Jade attacking with her staff vertically, and would have preffered a horizontal hit (although that could be so broken) and f4 I think should be an overhead. It's still a slow move, but would allow her to pressure with a little more than f2 for overhead options, who am I though.

In addition, the Cassie and Jade matchup is amazing when you keep Glow up. Most of her strings have shots in, which fortunately enough Glow negates, so she has a real difficult time maintaining offense given you can get Glow off and block her strings to keep Glow up.
 
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Rabid Justice

Your Soul Is Mine
Pole vault load out seams bad. Only thing strong about it is wall carrie after popup. But loosing all the chip damage and mobility air glave gives just is not worth it.
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Just when I thought I was getting better at handling Scorpion... I saw this :

If things like Kung Lao's orbital hat have to cost offensive AND defensive meter, there is no reason Scorpion's teleport cancel shouldn't cost both types of meter too. Imagine a high level Scorpion staggering with these cancels, throws, combos, etc. and then STILL having offensive meter to burn on amplifying teleport alongside all that. Absolutely ridiculous for this slower-paced game.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Lol teleport cancel makes no sense. Seems there was a reason it was 2 defensive bars in beta.
Scorpion's teleport is overperforming AF and I don't understand how it didn't get patched when he was literally the first character in the game lol
 

DrZmmm

Noob
.

In addition, the Cassie and Jade matchup is amazing when you keep Glow up. Most of her strings have shots in, which fortunately enough Glow negates, so she has a real difficult time maintaining offense given you can get Glow off and block her strings to keep Glow up.
Jade wins this mu easily for the reasons you stated. Just do glow and zone her out all game. There's not much she can do to stop her. In fact, this is how Jade wins most of her mus.

It's characters with amazing pressure, advancing specials and teleports(or all three) that she has to worry about.

Hell, I even think Geras is a winnable mu that would actually be in Jade's favor if his damage wasn't so dumb.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
So with more time with Jade, I'm ready to make a bit of an analysis of her. Not really final say, but just my thoughts at this point with Emerald Defender. So take it with a grain of salt.



I still don't believe Jade is a character in dire need of much for the long term. Damage buff for ground punishes via something that launches and/or ex glaive connecting on everyone after 43. b12 having more pushback, but same on block data. And after that...I think she wouldn't really need anything else. I think REO's initial tier list nails how she is...well balanced, not really overbearing.



Air glaive is already established as great, and I think it really shapes matchups way more than credited and makes the variation really better than the pole vault one. Covering that diagonal angle is really good in a 2D fighter. The fact that the EX is so good on block and hit gives her some really free instances of glow, and that in itself can change the flow of the match entirely vs some characters and both of these give her a considerable upside in matchups.



I've gotten more comfortable in how I want to use her strings and normals and they all just have their own particular place of use. f2 on oki is very useful and the range is something the opponent has to really respect, even outside of oki. b12 isn't great within b1 range, but outside of it is where it basically shines. 124's KB definitely demonstrates where the usage of the normal is intended, and gives her that sweep range string meant to poke at and gain space. The big concern in these normals is how weak they are to jumping opponents, but thankfully, her anti airs are really consistent. Air glaive compliments all of this stuff well by giving her that safe poking tool that is pretty flexible, and low projectile as a trading option is pretty useful.



On the flip side, her damage being so bad really checks her effectiveness in certain matchups. If she hit harder, she'd have plenty more decidedly advantage matchups. I wouldn't be mad if it's kept as a relevant weakness, though. It's clearly meant to be her shortcoming. I think breakaway really exposes it more than anything.



Nitro kick gets a bad rep, but vs people who play me regularly, the KB is such a factor that the fact that they try to avoid nitro kick altogether just opens up a lot more freedom once I land the first nitro kick to do other stuff and keep pressing. Like if f21 lands, or I get KB launchers, that 27% that KB nitro kick provides is a little bit more meaningful lol.



I think matchup-wise, ED does fairly well. Geras having moments where he can lose the use of pillar is particularly noteworthy and gives her a bit of control once glow is on. The fact that glow can nullify EB's fatal blow is hilariously useful and allows her a ton of leeway in those low life scenarios vs him, as well as in general vs his stance MB. Noob and Scorpion stand out as problematic, largely because of damage and their abilities to check a lot of her neutral game with their specific teleports. Cetrion losing so many of her zoning options as soon as glow becomes active is great. Air glaive makes Skarlet much more playable, even with her teleport. Jax and Jacqui hate air glaive in general. Just to name a few things that really helps her in matchups. They would be better or less difficult with more damage, though.



So yeah. I still think she's pretty good. Not top tier material, but not a complete waste of a character choice, especially with other characters in your arsenal. And I don't think she'll be touched at all when nerfs hit, so life will likely be even better once NRS decides rebalancing is a go. But even with changes, she won't get far if you don't know how to use her whole kit in this varation, and that'll keep people away from her, unless she ends up top tier lol.
 

HeavyNorse

#BlackLivesMatter
I've been taking Jade for a spin in kasual matches to use kustom variations and I'm here to say that my original thought rings 100% true: Jade suffers almost entirely from her variation limitations in ranked. I'm gunna break down my experience with each of her available variation abilities and close out with what I feel Jade needs most right now.

NOTE: I have not done any playtesting with Pole Vault Cancel so I am not going to speak on it. I've gotten lab AND online match time in all the other abilities, though, so I'll speak on them accordingly.

Score: 9/10
Pros: floats aerial opponents when enhanced, interrupts jump arc, decently safe depending on matchup / range / height.
Cons: doesn't hit close opponents, only enhanced one goes full screen, can be punished by charging specials (Jax, Jacqui, Liu, etc.)
Overall: borderline mandatory if you're looking to play Jade almost exclusively keep-away and screen management.

Score: 3.5/10
Pros: enhanced one loops to keep grounded opponents from advancing, floats aerial opponents for followup, allows for great zoning mindgames
Cons: mediocre startup speed (14f), very specific area of air control limits its usage, only hits grounded opponents at full screen
Overall: not as bad as everyone (myself included) made it out to be, but definitely not a worthwhile option with only 3 variation slots available.

Score: 10/10
Pros: special-cancelable low option, only -13 on block and can be delay-enhanced for an extra hit and only -7 if blocked, adds mind games to all her strings at close range, +8 on hit gives you the chance to reposition or pressure further
Cons: requires meter to be safe, has to be decently close to hit
Overall: with Butterfly in such a state that it may as well be ignored, Delia's Dance comes through as easily the best option Jade has in her variation arsenal. It plugs an excessive number of holes in her close range game and gives her something else worth spending offensive meter on.

Score: 1/10
Pros: reflects projectiles, enhancement makes it last longer and turns it into a -7f mid launcher, can be enhanced twice
Cons: 14f startup with input delay and potential lag means that faster projectiles like Liu's fireball give you maybe a half-second window at FULLSCREEN to react and reflect, ends itself after reflecting one projectile, launch property on enhancement requires sitting there for about a second before it will enhance + launch
Overall: pointless, especially since it replaces glow. If its startup were faster (like 8-10f), I could see it as being potentially useful. Also, it's really sad that NRS decided that THIS would be the enhanced launcher for Jade. There's literally not a single string that can combo into the launcher for this.

Score: 8/10
Pros: safe on block (-4), fantastic mind games in block string scenarios due to its "safety," respectable damage and has its own KB on enhancement
Cons: can be scouted out / reacted to due to the long frames before it hits, makes Jade entirely defenseless while running
Overall: a damn good option for safety and damage in Jade's close up gameplan. One must be wary of being blown up if using it too predictably, though (which is basically Jade's entire MO).

Score: 4.5/10
Pros: special-cancelable low option, a nice extra tool for Jade's zoning game which is rough normally with only her 20f startup regular razor-rang, keeps opponents from simply ducking your zoning game while also forcing mind games for attempts to jump over it
Cons: no enhancement option, 20f startup while only being about average projectile speed, -23 on block means it being a mixup option is just a really bad gimmick
Overall: a decent addition to Jade's zoning options, but nothing to write home about. Patient opponents will rarely be affected by the mind games as they'll jump on reaction as opposed to attempting to preemptively jump, and you will likely get only a few instances of getting to safely use it as a close mixup option before you have to stop entirely due to being blown up.

Score: 0/10
Pros: makes Jade stay on the same side
Cons: makes Jade stay on the same side
Overall: it just makes Jade stay on the same side which can be good or bad depending on the scenario. No bonus damage, doesn't make it safe, barely changes gameplay, is entirely subjective if it's actually helpful -- the fact that this requires a variation slot is a travesty.

Score: 6.5/10
Pros: special-cancelable low option, only -9 on block while also having enough pushback that an opponent can't D1 punish it consistently (except Kitana), enhancement is a full-screen teleport low that's -7, great mindgames both close and far due to teleport shenanigans
Cons: 20f startup with 32f recovery (wiff and die), 27f startup when enhanced which means it's interruptible on reaction (though very unlikely), low range on regular version makes it only useful at very close range
Overall: a much-needed teleport option for matchups like Skarlet/Noob/Cetrion, but also a decent block string option with its notable pushback. Not anything amazing, but not bad by any means.

Score: 5/10
Pros: wiggle stick string has INSANE range with the third hit being a low, 322 is safe (-5) and 322D1 is only -10 while having good pushback, 432 is relatively safe (-7) and allows for a safer hit-confirm option off 43 (432 when blocked, 43special when not)
Cons: wiggle stick string is insanely unsafe due to its startup speed and the fact that you have to commit to the WHOLE thing (and it starts off a high), 322/322D1 start off an 11f high, 432 starts off a 13f high
Overall: none of these combo strings add much to Jade's gameplay save for, of course, the extremely unsafe one. Overall not that bad, but nothing here is worth the variation slot in my opinion.

With all the above said, here are the changes I think would put Jade in the absolute perfect spot as a balanced mid-range character. I considered my proposed changes both in a vacuum alone and in conjunction with each other in both a kustom variation and tournament variation environment. The ideas below have the goals of pushing Jade's current strengths further without making them too overbearing, giving Jade players the option of plugging some of her gameplay holes via her variations, and give Jade players the ability to vary their gameplay styles by making the variation skill options more competitive with each other.

  1. Deadly Butterfly needs an enhancement option that launches. Make the move -16 on block (both regular and enhanced) to compensate. Butterfly being a universal launch option would make Delia's Dance no longer absolutely mandatory and would allow different Jade players the ability to have notably different playstyles (combo vs. blockstring mixup). May need to include high damage scaling after using the enhanced launcher so Jade doesn't get too much of a damage increase in all her gameplay. The launcher is more to give Jade a nice punishment option because she currently has none, not suddenly make her a combo character.
  2. Lower Glow's startup from 45f to 20f so she can more easily Glow on reaction. Keep recovery as it is as she should be blown up for it if scouted (maybe even increase recovery some to make up for the faster startup).
  3. Lower Parry's startup to 9f to put it in line with other parries. Lower the hit advantage so she can't pressure as easily if it lands to make up for the faster speed.
  4. Make B1 safe on block when used at optimal range (about -9) to make it a notable "check" in the neutral. It's still pokeable if used up close when -9 so she'll lose her turn in close range.
  5. Make B2 (wiggle stick) a mid but increase its block disadvantage to compensate. This will allow more special cancel opportunities in the neutral while also allowing more mind games between Jade and her opponent with wiggle stick being so unsafe yet always a threat.
  6. As Glortor has said many a time, make F21 (both hits) have active hitboxes for the full downward swings so they can catch aerial opponents. Keep frames as they are because this string's range is obscene and would be that much more crazy if opponents couldn't ever really jump it.

  1. EDIT: Lower Up Razor-Rang's startup from 14f to 12f. Make Up Razor-Rang's secondary arc (after its apex) no longer go as low so it catches more air area. The negative compensation here would be that its new arc would NEVER hit grounded opponents (even full screen) except via its enhanced one.
  2. Lower Divine Forces' startup frames to 8-10f tops. Remove the launch property from enhancement and instead make its enhancement instantly usable AND continue to deflect multiple projectiles. Maybe make deflected projectiles do more damage, though I'm unsure if that's necessary.
  3. Lower Edenian Spark's start-up and increase its projectile speed slightly. Keep it unsafe on block as it should be more a zoning tool than a mixup tool. She deserves to be blown up if she attempts to use it as a gimmick.
  4. Amplify Blazing Nitro Kick needs any number of different things. Bonus damage, safety, make the initial kick a mid, instantly results in the KB if both land -- pick one or more.
  5. Increase the range of Vanishing Winds' regular ground wave thingy by a small amount that's enough to allow it to hit after things like B1 and B2 when the attacks are used from a few steps away. Increase block disadvantage to make up for it, especially considering its great block pushback.

Edit: minor edits for sentence structure clarity. Also removed my buff for regular razor-rang that I had sitting in variation moves and replaced it with my intended Up Razor-Rang buff. Unsure what the hell I was thinking when I wrote that.
Alright, so, I read this post of yours and love the insight of the custom moves! I prefer to play a bit more rushdown, so my loadout is Deadly Assassin, Pole Vault and Amplify Blazing Nitro Kick. But after reading your post, I've tried to find something to replace the Amplify Nitro Kick with, like Delia's Dance or Air Razor-Rang.

I have a hard time adjusting to NOT have Deadly Butterfly or Amplify Nitro Kick though, as Delia's Dance has such short a range and normal amplified Nitro Kick pushes the opponent out of the corner. I also tried using the Pole Vault Cancel, but I keep getting punished before I can follow up on it. Maybe it's my own timing though (most likely).

Air Razor-Rang is pretty good though for tricking out the opponent expecting me to jump in with an attack, but it feels very situational. Probably because I don't focus on zoning.
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Alright, so, I read this post of yours and love the insight of the custom moves! I prefer to play a bit more rushdown, so my loadout is Deadly Assassin, Pole Vault and Amplify Blazing Nitro Kick. But after reading your post, I've tried to find something to replace the Amplify Nitro Kick with, like Delia's Dance or Air Razor-Rang.

I have a hard time adjusting to NOT have Deadly Butterfly or Amplify Nitro Kick though, as Delia's Dance has such short a range and normal amplified Nitro Kick pushes the opponent out of the corner. I also tried using the Pole Vault Cancel, but I keep getting punished before I can follow up on it. Maybe it's my own timing though (most likely).

Air Razor-Rang is pretty good though for tricking out the opponent expecting me to jump in with an attack, but it feels very situational. Probably because I don't focus on zoning.
I do agree that Delia's Dance is extremely awkward when you first start using it. It does NOT complement Jade's optimal range whatsoever due to its short distance covered. However, once you get used to its shenanigans at close range, I'm sure you'll come to love it. The main negative tradeoff is that you're losing Butterfly's corner carry power. That one negative is easily compensated for by turning Jade into a stagger / mixup / pressure character with literally a single move. Toss in Pole Vault for safety and mind games, Vanishing Winds for another low option that can reset you to nearly optimal range due to its pushback and a teleport if needed, Deadly Assassin for more safe combo strings to complement your stagger pressure, or Air Glaive for jump away mind games when close and safety jumping in.

Basically, Delia's Dance works with everything really well. As I said in my big post, Delia's Dance plugs a LOT of the holes in Jade's gameplay by giving her the ability to safely compete in close range. One thing I failed to mention in my post is the crazy levels of pushback when you amplify Delia's Dance and it's blocked. It may be -7, but it's literally unpunishable in practice. If mid screen, the opponent slides multiple feet away. If opponent is in the corner, Jade slides that distance away instead (which happens to be her optimal staff distance too which is fantastic). Call me crazy, but I would unironically use a tournament variation that had Delia's Dance and nothing else.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Been playing my local Liu player in sets, and I feel like the matchup isn't really bad for Jade. His fireball allows him to do a bit more in neutral vs her than a number of characters, but keeping your glows unpredictable (of course, still punishable if read, but not for a lot, which is good...but keeping it as something you'll do if he begins thinking about fireballs) and in guaranteed situations (i.e. after far EX air glaives, as they can be over +30 on hit) makes the neutral a deal better. I think the sweet spot for the matchup is about half screen. At that range, flying kick stops right next to you, and a KB d2 will get him to chill on it. d1 checking when dealing with the f43 special cancel stuff is crucial, as it stops everything but the fireballs, which are punishable anyway, if blocked (though there's a guessing game in that). Eating low fireball up close is pretty whatever, as the pushback on hit puts him out of range of his normals, so walking back is strong if the Liu wants to hit buttons immediately after. If you read an EX fireball and glow, you can punish with nitro kick minimum. Also, teching back throws is important, as that throw is oki central. Most of the time, you'll be fine just failing forward throw escapes...it kicks you out to neutral, which is where you want to be anyway.

It's tricky, but I generally feel more comfortable in the matchup now, and don't fear just blocking sometimes, as much.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Aight, I need some footage.
Where the high level Jade stuff?
I need some links.

Been playing my local Liu player in sets...
Been playing as LK a lot, and I agree with most of this, but he still gets a lot of options from f43. Parry beats d1 for full combo. If her d3 is fast enuf, that beats parry, but if he just blocks the d3 you’re negative anyway so the result isn’t much different than blocking the full string. Also the low fireball combos in the corner, so watch out for that.

Definitely important to contest him to make him try mindgames though as it gives you the opportunity to make reads.

I agree with the people who say Jade’s biggest issue is her lack of punish damage. Negative frames is the trade off for long range. Poor punishes shouldn’t be an additional trade off imo, but maybe I’m wrong. Need to see high level shit.
 
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I was watching this today, if it counts. The Jade was a surprise pick, and it went poorly. Biohazard shut down all of Kitana's zoning with Glow and Air Razor Rang, but then got rushed down really hard instead.


He tries again late in the tournament to counter Geras, but it goes really poorly. He gets in a lot of pokes with projectiles, but is doing 100-200 damage at a time where Geras gets 320 as easy as breathing.

 
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Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Ya, Jade's inability to punish or get decent damage when she plays right is extremely frustrating in a game where so many characters get 300+ off one bar. Technically Jade can get 314 damage in one bar midscreen, but that's only possible off F21 which is too slow to punish and WAY too slow/unsafe to be a viable option.

Many characters in this game only need their opponent to make 3-6 mistakes in a round before they win. Meanwhile, Jade requires 9-12+ opponent mistakes, all the while having extremely unsafe options. As said above, she should be unsafe with her range; but her punish options being nonexistent is an unnecessary drawback.
 

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
Yeah really low damage on punish (ex : Scorpion's teleport) is the number 1 problem. Been saying so at the end of my 1st day labbing her.

We'll see later if NRS decides to give her better zoning options (glow working on all ranged projectiles, better frame data on projectiles, etc) or better close range options ... or a bit of both.

I'm really sad when I look at Kabal's frame data for example : /all/ of his strings are safe, yet he has very good pokes and zoning tools (he can rival Jade in both departments ... and more : his jumping hook can stuff Jade's d2 for example). Not to mention good damage, restand and very good KBs / full screen FBs.

Cant really get the logic behind character archetypes in this game. Makes no freaking sense half of the time ...

IMO no character should have a full screen FB ... or at the cost of being too slow to combo into it ... "maybe" ...
 
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