Injustice Zoning

[Zoidberg747]

Cyborg, Deathstroke, and Zod do not have the following.

- f+2,3 xx breath
- armor breaking trait
- 45% mid screen combos
- 65% corner combos
- dive bomb that crosses up
- 1F full screen overhead super move

If they did, they would be "normalized" in a heartbeat.

Nothing you listed is part of the argument at hand which is whether Superman is the best pure keepaway character(although your points kind of help to point out why he is way more well-rounded than that)

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

Watch me vs kdz at nlbc from..3(?) weeks ago and see if he was trying to contend with cyborg zoning or rushing in trying to maul me the whole time.
Superman cannot beat these characters from far away

 

[Tony at Home]

Sorry, but that is BS.

There are plenty of people who can't pull of "touch of death" combos in Mahvel, why doesn't Capcom patch that?

There are tons of people who can't pull of 1 frame links in SF, why doesn't Capcom patch that?

There are tons of people around the world who like [enter anything here], so why don't we make everything accessible for everyone so things can be more fair?

Bottom line is, if you are a casual fan of a fighting game, play with your casual friends. Casual fans can't/shouldn't dictate how a "pro" player plays based on their own inabilities. If you want to argue whether this game should be a "pro" players game, that is a different topic all together, but as it stands the competitive scene has picked up the game, but it seems as if it is the casuals who want to run the show.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying this should be a game where a casual player stands a chance against a dedicated competitive gamer.

I'm saying this is a game where a casual player should always stand a chance against other casual players. Pre-patch Deathstroke, a casual player could easily dominate by spamming Deathstroke guns against other casual players.

So a casual Deathstroke player who plays with his friends is going to dominate pure rushdown characters played by other casuals. So your solution, "if you are a casual fan of a fighting game, play with your casual friends" doesn't work.

I remember going to a friend's apartment, I saw he had Injustice, and I said "oh wow, we should play sometime!"... his response was : "sure, but house rule: no one is allowed to pick Deathstroke"

Literally, pre-patch, that character was like picking Oddjob in GoldenEye...

I think we can easily avoid this problem, while at the same time not interfering with the competitive nature of the game. The trick is not to nerf zoning, but to make sure pure zoning isn't so easy it can shut down players at a low level.

 

[Foreskin Fissure]

Cyborg, Deathstroke, and Zod do not have the following.

- f+2,3 xx breath
- armor breaking trait
- 45% mid screen combos
- 65% corner combos
- dive bomb that crosses up
- 1F full screen overhead super move

If they did, they would be "normalized" in a heartbeat.

you forgot low gun shot nerfs.

 

[Hellbringer]

I agree with all of this. EVERY. LAST. WORD.

I honestly think that what this game needs is a King of Fighters style roll that passes through projectiles, moves you inside and can be used to go behind folks for punishes. Add that and this game will get a LOT more intense and will feel like its core structure is far more balanced. However so many characters would need completely retooled on their moves due to this that it'd effectively be too hard to patch in.

This is why I say for a sequel either retool mobility vs zoning or build the game up around the addition of rolls. Otherwise if you want more in your face action you're going to have to keep adding more and more teleports and teleport dashes to the movesets and additions.

You realise you can dash trough projectiles?
Maybe you should level up if you want the gamz to be more intense. No offence...

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

You're missing the point. I'm not saying this should be a game where a casual player stands a chance against a dedicated competitive gamer.

I'm saying this is a game where a casual player should always stand a chance against other casual players. Pre-patch Deathstroke, a casual player could easily dominate by spamming Deathstroke guns against other casual players.

So a casual Deathstroke player who plays with his friends is going to dominate pure rushdown characters played by other casuals. So your solution, "if you are a casual fan of a fighting game, play with your casual friends" doesn't work.

I remember going to a friend's apartment, I saw he had Injustice, and I said "oh wow, we should play sometime!"... his response was : "sure, but house rule: no one is allowed to pick Deathstroke"

Literally, pre-patch, that character was like picking Oddjob in GoldenEye...

I think we can easily avoid this problem, while at the same time not interfering with the competitive nature of the game. The trick is not to nerf zoning, but to make sure pure zoning isn't so easy it can shut down players at a low level.

Again I disagree.

That same argument could be made about SF and people just throwing fire balls. Did you see the AE GFs last night? That Akuma was as "spammy" as it gets, and speaking strictly about exectution, that strat was NOT hard. The same thing occured with Sagat in SF as well in other SF incarnations.

Pre-patch DS was not a win button. Yes he was annoying (very annoying), but he wasn't broken, and he wasn't insurmountable.

 

[BaronVonRupert]

You realise you can dash trough projectiles?
Maybe you should level up if you want the gamz to be more intense. No offence...

dash through to waste a meter, take damage, and then get blown up, if they decide to mb, by either getting full combo'd or pushed fullscreen.
not saying it's useless but i'm just saying.

 

[Tony at Home]

You realise you can dash trough projectiles?
Maybe you should level up if you want the gamz to be more intense. No offence...

That's categorically untrue. Certain characters can dash through certain projectiles, but some can't. Lex vs Supes- a certain pattern of Supes lasers cannot possibly be dashed between due to the slow Lex dash. You have to walk and block. That's just conclusive frame data.

 

[PANDA]

Yay another Soul Calibur player, like me!!

 

[Hellbringer]

dash through to waste a meter, take damage, and then get blown up, if they decide to mb, by either getting full combo'd or pushed fullscreen.
not saying it's useless but i'm just saying.

Yeah im aware of that, im just telling him its another option

 

[Hellbringer]

That's categorically untrue. Certain characters can dash through certain projectiles, but some can't. Lex vs Supes- a certain pattern of Supes lasers cannot possibly be dashed between due to the slow Lex dash. You have to walk and block. That's just conclusive frame data.

Not everyone can thats true. But there are more options. Lets not pretend that supers lasers are broke....

 

[Tony at Home]

Again I disagree.

That same argument could be mad about SF and people just throwing fire balls. Did you see the AE GFs last night? That Akuma was as "spammy" as it gets, and speaking strictly about exectution, that strat was NOT hard. The same thing occured with Sagat in SF as well in other SF incarnations.

Pre-patch DS was not a win button. Yes he was annoying (very annoying), but he wasn't broken, and he wasn't insurmountable.

You're refferring again to non-casual play.

The point is for casuals, it was a win button.

Dashing and blocking between DS's projectiles litterally required you to be on time up to no more than several frames for many characters. That's no problem for pro's, but for casuals it was near-completely impossible.

 

[Foreskin Fissure]

Again I disagree.

That same argument could be mad about SF and people just throwing fire balls. Did you see the AE GFs last night? That Akuma was as "spammy" as it gets, and speaking strictly about exectution, that strat was NOT hard. The same thing occured with Sagat in SF as well in other SF incarnations.

Pre-patch DS was not a win button. Yes he was annoying (very annoying), but he wasn't broken, and he wasn't insurmountable.

In SF fireballs cancel each other out, any casual can figure that out. It's not the same comparison. Not to sound condescending or like I'm trying to instigate an argument but this doesn't relate to zoning in injustice.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

@Foreskin Fissure @LtLuthor Both of you are missing the point.

If I'm a casual player who picks Akuma, and I'm playing against one of my casual friends who likes to play Zangief, if all I do is just do air fireballs what is he going to do? If he is Gen, or Balrog, or any other number of rush down oriented characters, what will he do?

Yes fireballs can cancel each other out, but that doesn't matter as watching 2 shotos going at it with constant fire balls is no more entertaining to watch than 2 DS's going at it with constant guns, or a DS vs Superman match where both are trying to play keep away.

Forget high level play, casuals can spam easy stuff against other causals in any game and get away with it. Only through scrubby rule making do things even out in casual play because neither (or at least just one) of the players want to have to deal with something they don't have the time/desire to figure out how to deal with.

The under lying question is why nerf something for someone who doesn't really care?

If you are playing for fun...PLAY FOR FUN. DS doesn't/didn't ruin IGAU gameplay, people ruined it for other people. If you want to play online ranked, you are eventually going to meet up with some A-hole who doesn't give a crap about you having fun (me), so in the case of online, if you want to "have fun" you should play with like minded people, or don't play at all...sorry.

 

[catscratch]

I would say that if a game isn't fun for casual players, then that game's future is going to be pretty short. A game needs its casuals, they're where new players come from. If there are no new players coming into the game, the scene dries up and the game dies. Now, I'm not going to point fingers and say "if you're playing in a way that's no fun for opponents to play against, you're killing the game!" because honestly, if the game creates characters that encourage you to play in that way, or are most effective when played in that way, it's a problem with the game far more than it is a problem with the players.

If I weren't new to the community, I would say that the problem in Injustice is no so much the strength of zoning as the lack of options for a lot of characters - which does have the effect of strengthening zoning - but I am new so I won't say that. Incidentally, I think that characters like Batgirl and Scorpion were an attempt to weaken zoning - by introducing characters which specifically counter zoning. That's a really lazy way to balance (if you can even call it balancing) and it's similar to what Capcom did in AE (non-2012) and it seriously hurt the game.

 

[BlackBryan]

This thread was needed for the 94633(345533633_ time. If you don't like it, gtfo. Sthat easy.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[MoldMan]

All hail king zoner superman. His MB heat ray needs to nerfed when blocked

 

[FGC_Chukz]

How is batman supposed to counter Superman/Deathstroke zoning. I can't use dash because both of them can unleash another projectile before I can block again.

 

[shaowebb]

All hail king zoner superman. His MB heat ray needs to nerfed when blocked

NEVER block it. You have to jump his stuff. He's just a matchup you have to practice because he takes reads to fight. You cant block his stuff because essentially his block advantage on his stuff is what makes him so frustrating...he can overwhelm you once you start blocking.

The key to fighting Superman is avoidance and dodging over blocking. He's hard because of this since a lot of folks just lack the mobility options they need to handle a fight like that smoothly.

 

[Komatose]

How is batman supposed to counter Superman/Deathstroke zoning. I can't use dash because both of them can unleash another projectile before I can block again.

What Webb said. You can jump over db1 on the ground, and if he does it in the air and his straight eye lasers are duckable. So either duck and dash, depending on your character. Or duck and walk. It might seem like you are wasting your time but if you ever want to win against Superman, you'll do it.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

What Webb said. You can jump over db1 on the ground, and if he does it in the air and his straight eye lasers are duckable. So either duck and dash, depending on your character. Or duck and walk. It might seem like you are wasting your time but if you ever want to win against Superman, you'll do it.

I don't play superdouche but doesn't his mb ground laser track in air and throw you full screen when it hits? You really have to block it if they have meter.

 

[Komatose]

I don't play superdouche but doesn't his mb ground laser track in air and throw you full screen when it hits? You really have to block it if they have meter.

Superman cannot MB the laser if it doesn't hit you so no. You don't have to block anything.

 

[haketh]

Superman zoning is one of the most misunderstood things in this game.

 

[FGC_Chukz]

No wonder, you have To jump the lazers! If you try to duck and walk he is just going to MB that thing and then you are done, back to square one. However, what about characters with floaty jumps? Ie: Grundy?

 

[@MylesWright_]

The only time there won't be zoning in a fight is because both characters being used are fairly even at zoning in which case who ever gets the life lead is playing keepaway. This is Injustice