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Injustice Zoning

Belial

Belial

Noob
Hello TYM

I am Soul Calibur V player, notably, I placed 9th at EVO 2012 and Top8 at MLG Raleigh 2012.
I am trying to play Injustice now and here are few issues I am concerned about.

NRS said they are aiming at new players, but it is unplayable to new players. Just frame punishment and timings, almost unexistant buffering windows, weird hitboxes and finally - severe disbalance. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying characters are not balanced. I am saying certain aspects of the game, such as specifically melee vs zoning - are unbalanced. In a bad way, that takes fun away from the game and makes it frustrating

The game favors zoning too much. At the same time, there are characters like Bane, Doomsday, Catwoman etc who do not zone.

There are a lot of ways to counter melee in the game, such as backdash, focus atacks (b+3/f+3 + MB), push block etc, but no ways to counter zoning. At the same time dash is not cancellable, movement is very slow.

Lets take a look at SF4 for a second. SF dash wasnt cancellable, walk speed was also slow, it also had focus atacks.
But
dash was really fast, fireballs were slow, focus costed no meter and game featured a lot of ways to counter fireballs
Injustice fireballs fly like jets, slow walk speed, slow dash, high jump arcs.

Take Catwoman for example, how do you approach? Only using MB-cDash, which is
1) Unsafe
2) Costs meter
3) Late armor

Playing against heavy zoners all your meter goes MB dash, or lucky focus, but thats it. Zoner can do nothing but backdash/walk back and bait your mistake. If there are interactibles around you're stuffed - you cant let them get to interactible (which further improve their zoning) but if you stay full screen - you're done.

For example Superman or Deathstroke. And I saw the video, that Tom Brady and REO recently put up.
To even get a chance at playing them with melee or weaker zoners you have to do what? Spent tons of time learning reaction to lazer, learn frametraps. You have to treat every blocked/ducked projectile differently as they provide different amount of blockstun, thus you need to react to everything well.
For me, the video "Overreacting to Deathstroke" from REO and TB actually showed how hard it is to get in and how many consecutive guesses you have to make and how every mistake puts you full screen away. It is wrong to force this on newer players.
 
Euphoric

Euphoric

MKX
Belial said:
Hello TYM

I am Soul Calibur V player, notably, I placed 9th at EVO 2012 and Top8 at MLG Raleigh 2012.
I am trying to play Injustice now and here are few issues I am concerned about.

NRS said they are aiming at new players, but it is unplayable to new players. Just frame punishment and timings, almost unexistant buffering windows, weird hitboxes and finally - severe disbalance. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying characters are not balanced. I am saying certain aspects of the game, such as specifically melee vs zoning - are unbalanced. In a bad way, that takes fun away from the game and makes it frustrating

The game favors zoning too much. At the same time, there are characters like Bane, Doomsday, Catwoman etc who do not zone.

There are a lot of ways to counter melee in the game, such as backdash, focus atacks (b+3/f+3 + MB), push block etc, but no ways to counter zoning. At the same time dash is not cancellable, movement is very slow.

Lets take a look at SF4 for a second. SF dash wasnt cancellable, walk speed was also slow, it also had focus atacks.
But
dash was really fast, fireballs were slow, focus costed no meter and game featured a lot of ways to counter fireballs
Injustice fireballs fly like jets, slow walk speed, slow dash, high jump arcs.

Take Catwoman for example, how do you approach? Only using MB-cDash, which is
1) Unsafe
2) Costs meter
3) Late armor

Playing against heavy zoners all your meter goes MB dash, or lucky focus, but thats it. Zoner can do nothing but backdash/walk back and bait your mistake. If there are interactibles around you're stuffed - you cant let them get to interactible (which further improve their zoning) but if you stay full screen - you're done.

For example Superman or Deathstroke. And I saw the video, that Tom Brady and REO recently put up.
To even get a chance at playing them with melee or weaker zoners you have to do what? Spent tons of time learning reaction to lazer, learn frametraps. You have to treat every blocked/ducked projectile differently as they provide different amount of blockstun, thus you need to react to everything well.
For me, the video "Overreacting to Deathstroke" from REO and TB actually showed how hard it is to get in and how many consecutive guesses you have to make and how every mistake puts you full screen away. It is wrong to force this on newer players.
Click to expand...

Here is a very informative video by top player Pig Of The Hut


Also, glad you joined and hope you stick with it :).
 
aldazo

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
Belial said:
...Dont get me wrong, Im not saying characters are not balanced. I am saying certain aspects of the game, such as specifically melee vs zoning - are unbalanced. In a bad way, that takes fun away from the game and makes it frustrating...The game favors zoning too much...At the same time dash is not cancellable, movement is very slow...Injustice fireballs fly like jets, slow walk speed, slow dash, high jump arcs...
Click to expand...
This :u is what most players are complaining right now, but it seems that the game was release with strong zoning in mind, why? I really dont know. And I agree, it takes fun away and makes it frustating, just read the complains about deathstroke.
 
aldazo

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
Belial said:
For example Superman or Deathstroke. And I saw the video, that Tom Brady and REO recently put up.
To even get a chance at playing them with melee or weaker zoners you have to do what? Spent tons of time learning reaction to lazer, learn frametraps. You have to treat every blocked/ducked projectile differently as they provide different amount of blockstun, thus you need to react to everything well.
For me, the video "Overreacting to Deathstroke" from REO and TB actually showed how hard it is to get in and how many consecutive guesses you have to make and how every mistake puts you full screen away. It is wrong to force this on newer players.
Click to expand...
I'm very glad that a pro player like you bring this issue to discussion, if it is difficult and unfair to an expert player like you imagine how casual players would feel, and people attack you if you suggest some changes, I hope NRS do something because it makes no sense that a casual player pick deathstroke or other great zoning char and start spamming bullets to get an easy victory while other players have to take huge risks just to get close. And yes, it is wrong to force this on newer players.
 
aldazo

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
Sasarix said:
most of the complaints about Deathstroke are ppl to lazy to learn to find a way to beat him instead they just come here and cry about it and hope one of you guys can hold their hand and tell them how to win lol.
Click to expand...
What are talking about? This come from an expert player, he got top 9 at evo.
 
Dizzy

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
I agree with what you're saying. Especially the balance concerns. I hope very much that the game evolves past this, but so far everything you have said mirrors my current feelings. I am glad to see a top player from another community post their thoughts.

As an aside, when I got into SCV for a while early last year, I found your Mitsu info on 8wayrun very helpful, and even your early Shang guide for MK9 was ahead of its time, especially given the lack of reliable info that early in the game. If you do stick with Injustice through your concerns, I hope you can break down your favorite character for this game too.
 
Datsumsharks

Datsumsharks

Noob
This keeps getting brought up over and over and every time it just makes me think of when I was like 10 and I learned how to use Hadouken with ryu in SF2, I'd just spam it against my brother and he'd say I was "cheating".
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I feel like this is a very honest and balanced criticism. Also, you can tell by the responses which people haven't played against good zoners that know how to mix it up.
 
Big Pampering

Big Pampering

Noob
the walkspeed is still a little bit faster in street fighter I believe and the stages arent as big as in injustice so that makes a different as well. wish they buffed walk speed a little.
 
Jeffreys

Jeffreys

Grundy think you handsome!
I wonder if NRS would consider buffing jumping, I felt MK9 was far more fluid because the walking and jumping didn't feel clunky.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
PerfectMindGame said:
the walkspeed is still a little bit faster in street fighter I believe and the stages arent as big as in injustice so that makes a different as well. wish they buffed walk speed a little.
Click to expand...
Yup, in SF4 characters are a hop away from being in each other's faces even at fullscreen. You are never very far from your opponent and it creates this kind of constant tension where you know that one mistake or read could make the difference in the entire fight. And since projectiles neutralize other non-EX projectiles, the zoning game often becomes a way to set up your next move rather than just a way to smother somebody out as they try to jump and duck though everything.

Injustice def. requires a diff mindset.
 
PwnStar

PwnStar

Noob
OMG it's Belial...

Having come from the SC community this is a very legit player to actually follow, he's not lazy or a scrub by any means and I wouldn't put it past him to top 8 in this game. Sooo...before this thread devolves into 'omg whining!'

While I feel that zoning is totally beatable, I also feel it greatly limits gameplay because of how tedious and repetitive the task becomes to move in on them. I was fighting my friends cyborg and it was actually sort of fun using my GL to b1 past grounds shots and dash jump shots...until I realized I had guess right about 4-5 times and then he could zipline to the other side and do it again. The match was playable but it was tedious and very 1 sided until I got in. 1 mistake on my end meant push back. Jumping on zoners is incredibly bad as the half screen knockback pretty much undoes any work you've done. As well many projectiles sit high enough that your jump and air dash moves must be perfectly timed at the apex or your toes get nailed.

This game has a fuck ton of GTFO tech, but very bad get in tech. Back dash is invincible but forward is incredibly slow and unsafe (yeah it covers a lot of distance, but who cares when the animation is long enough to get repunished after most whiffs). We have a 1 meter push block. Push back in this game is huge on some hits. Walk speed is ass slow. Nearly all forward moving specials are unsafe. Clash always pushes full screen. Many MB versions of the attacks can punish the initial evade on reaction.

Now the current answer to zoners is to have a better zoner or a teleport/air dash + air attack. This works fine for some of the cast, but it makes some match ups too skewed in favor of zoning. There needs to be better tools to get in.

Simple changes like better walk speed, quicker forward dash (hell take out some of the distance...just seriously reduce the length of the animation), less knockback, invincibility on forward dash, etc... Not saying do all of these, but something needs to change. Whether or not zoning is beatable, it makes for shitty gameplay right now to over come. You are left with very non-character specific options and if you simply aren't equiped with better zoning or anti-zoning tech, you're kinda fucked.
 
aldazo

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
PwnStar said:
...While I feel that zoning is totally beatable, I also feel it greatly limits gameplay because of how tedious and repetitive the task becomes to move in on them...The match was playable but it was tedious and very 1 sided until I got in. 1 mistake on my end meant push back. Jumping on zoners is incredibly bad as the half screen knockback pretty much undoes any work you've done.

Simple changes like better walk speed, quicker forward dash ..., less knockback, invincibility on forward dash, etc... Not saying do all of these, but something needs to change. Whether or not zoning is beatable, it makes for shitty gameplay right now to over come. You are left with very non-character specific options and if you simply aren't equiped with better zoning or anti-zoning tech, you're kinda fucked.
Click to expand...
Again, great post, as you say the match against zoning are tedious and 1 sided, and if this happen to "pros" then we can imagine how the 99% of players would feel.
 
Datsumsharks

Datsumsharks

Noob
What if this is just intended? What if they actually made the game with zoning to be strong in mind? There are actually gonna be people who are super amped that zoning is strong, its some peoples prefered playstlye. Would everyone be so mad if rush down was just super strong?
 
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