Injustice Zoning

[Amadeous]

I don't think he was saying that zoning was easy. I think he was offering solace to the scrubs who we Deathstrokes body without remorse and breaking no sweat.

If anything, those scrubs should be thanking us. We are forcing them to level up if they don't want to be eaten alive.

Survival of the fittest. EVOlution

 

[cyke_out]

SO what your saying in sorth is that if the current easy tactic of zoning is nerfed this early on, then the ones who later have perfected the more difficult tactics and strategies will then dominate and the zoners and other easier tactics would become harder to survive in using. Makes sense, because then a Noob would stand no chance at all.

I don't think he was saying that zoning was easy. I think he was offering solace to the scrubs who we Deathstrokes body without remorse and breaking no sweat.

If anything, those scrubs should be thanking us. We are forcing them to level up if they don't want to be eaten alive.

Survival of the fittest. EVOlution

It goes both ways.

If you nerf Deathstroke now, and later on it's discovered that Shazam or Hawkgirl are fucking insane, yet Deathstroke can't do shit about it because he was nerfed too early. And all of the tools he needed to be able to compete, were removed simply becuase they are discovered first. Let the rest of cast find their inner bullshit, it's not a level playing field right now, so you can't make rash decisions.

And those that are facing Deathstroke, also need to level up, and focus on themselves instead of worrying about DS players. Otherwise, those hidden inner bullshit won't be found and the game stagnates. In order to reach that level playing field, people need to dig and not ask for developer hand-outs.

 

[CCVengeance]

For some reason, people have this idea that the effectiveness of a tactic or move, be directly proportionate to the work and effort it requires to execute said tactic or move. This is foolish logic and should be the last thing on your mind. So what if something takes less skill or work than another option. This only matters at the lowest level of play. At low levels the easiest option will win, since the other more harder to execute abilities have either not yet been mastered or even discovered.

At the highest level, where the game should be balanced around, when both players have their tools and executions down pat, the ease of an tactic is secondary to the effectiveness and risk/reward. And as long as the effectiveness and risk/reward for both tactics are relatively the same on screen, it doesn't matter what is going on with the controllers.

At the moment, the risk/reward for the easier tactics only seem disproportionate due to the difficulty of executing the harder options. This is why people want to wait for the game to develop and have people master the harder options and then see if there is an inherit unbalance among the varied playstyles. In the game's early life cycle, no one can accurately predict how the metagame will turn out.

If you nerf based on low levels of play, as the game does mature, once those harder to employ tactics are finally mastered, and can finally hang with the easier options, what would have been a balanced affair is thrown out of whack thanks to knee-jerk reactions that took away the easier tactics ability to fight back.

I understand that it may be discouraging to know you are working twice as hard and losing while your opponent is barely breaking a sweat and doesn't even know why he is winning. But the less you focus on what your opponent's hands and fingers are doing and more with what you are doing on the controller and on the screen, the faster you can leave behind this mentality and truly get better to where mindless application of an easy to do tactic will no longer be a threat.

On the bolded and underlined:Are you sure?

 

[trufenix]

I honestly don't understand the point of this complaint. If the issue is that its too easy for Pros to eat Casuals in Injustice, then the game is functioning as designed. If the issue is that Casuals are getting free wins on each other by shooting, who cares. Would it be any different if zoning was worthless and it was a game of random specials and blind mashing?

The sooner a player elects to evolve his gameplay beyond standing on the other side of the screen and whining about getting shot, the sooner he will learn the tools to combat it, which, given Injustice's training mode are not hard to find.

 

[trufenix]

On the bolded and underlined:Are you sure?

Yes, because while there are many players (MANY) who simply flock to the easy win, there are quite a few who select characters and play the game based on their own style and preferences. For them, complexity is irrelevant, they are simply playing there character and they should be rewarded for mastering them.

 

[CCVengeance]

Yes, because while there are many players (MANY) who simply flock to the easy win, there are quite a few who select characters and play the game based on their own style and preferences. For them, complexity is irrelevant, they are simply playing there character and they should be rewarded for mastering them.

I'm just messing with him!

 

[trufenix]

I'm just messing with him!

Oh, I get the joke. Its just that every joke is laced with a hint of truth and there are lots of people out there right now saying why bother learning a "harder" character when I can just pick Deathstroke and scrub it up. This is the worst way to deal with the problem and threads like this really aren't helping.

 

[CCVengeance]

Oh, I get the joke. Its just that every joke is laced with a hint of truth and there are lots of people out there right now saying why bother learning a "harder" character when I can just pick Deathstroke and scrub it up. This is the worst way to deal with the problem and threads like this really aren't helping.

Yeah you are right.And hey it's not like Injustice has a "OMG I CANT DO IT" execution requiremnt on any character.

 

[Amadeous]

Oh, I get the joke. Its just that every joke is laced with a hint of truth and there are lots of people out there right now saying why bother learning a "harder" character when I can just pick Deathstroke and scrub it up. This is the worst way to deal with the problem and threads like this really aren't helping.

There are easy to learn characters in any game. Who cares who casuals play with, that is irrelevant to an expert.

In BB, it is Ragna.
In MK9 it is Scorpion.
In SF4 it is Ryu.

Guess what? All those characters have professional tourney players as well.

 

[trufenix]

Let me ask something.

If Deathstroke's zoning can be avoided with universal dash block mechanics, how is it OP?

If he can be OUTZONED, then what makes HIS so cheap and in need of nerfs?

Answers will be appreciated.

Well, the point of this thread is to rag on zoning in general (although the anti-ds brigade seems to use any balance related thread as a platform), because for some reason scrubbery via zoning is worse than scrubbery via random xrays, teleport shenanigans and mashing d+1. That said, the target is on DS because everybody else who zones well in the game actually has to do stuff. Cyborg, Aquaman, Sin, GL, even Supes will eventually have to emerge from their corner and use a diff special or at least throw a punch. Meanwhile, the average online DS scum bag literally backs to full screen and shoots until you get close enough for a sword spin and then repeats.

I have to know though, is maining THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE HISTORY OF FIGHTING GAMES sufficient enough reach around for almost zero coverage pre release? or should they maybe release a render of Deathstroke strangling Batman with his grappling gun cable for emphasis?

 

[trufenix]

There are easy to learn characters in any game. Who cares who casuals play with, that is irrelevant to an expert.

In BB, it is Ragna.
In MK9 it is Scorpion.
In SF4 it is Ryu.

Guess what? All those characters have professional tourney players as well.

You're confusing basic with scrubby, and I'm happy for you, because you don't know what scrubbery is pal. None of those characters are scrub friendly. Scorpion maybe in a pinch but until you've watched two guile's literally throw sonic booms at each other for 90 seconds until one of them gets ballsy enough to jump into a flash kick and lose via timeout, don't claim to understand casuals.

 

[Amadeous]

You're confusing basic with scrubby, and I'm happy for you, because you don't know what scrubbery is pal. None of those characters are scrub friendly. Scorpion maybe in a pinch but until you've watched two guile's literally throw sonic booms at each other for 90 seconds until one of them gets ballsy enough to jump into a flash kick and lose via timeout, don't claim to understand casuals.

Casuals and scrubs are 2 different things.

You can be a Casual and still not be a scrub. The point of a scrub means he doesn't care about getting better.

All the character's I listed are Casual friendly characters (this doesn't make them bad). Any character could be played by a scrub. A ryu who keeps using Hadouken and Shoryouken is a scrub ONLY if his tactic isn't working. If it is, he isn't a scrub and the other person is.

 

[TheSpore]

Well the casuel player is just normally a person who just enjoys the thrill of the game and cares nothing about winning or losing and typically will try to get better, scrubs tend to live off of two philosphies, mash the buttons and wiggle the stick and hey I can do this move all day long every day ain't shit anyone can do about, until they find there is shit that can be done and they freak out Lol, sorry seen that one first hand with a Noob player, lets just say he thinks twice when zoning a Mileena now.

Its us the competetive players that will totally nuke the game, we tend to over think our strategies and tactics, which can be a downfall for us as well as a strength. We hava tendancy to dissect a games mechanics and figure out exactly what makes it tick and most typical players just wanna mash the buttons and wiggle the stick

I am not completely being serious here.

On the zoning DS issue though I started throwing down online lately and have been expecting this DS stuff and not one person will pick in a match against me, but god they are quick to change selection when I pick Harley.

 

[trufenix]

Casuals and scrubs are 2 different things.

You can be a Casual and still not being a scrub. The point of a scrub means he doesn't care about getting better.

All the character's I listed are Casual friendly characters (this doesn't make them bad). Any character could be played by a scrub. A ryu who keeps using Hadouken and Shoryouken is a scrub ONLY if his tactic isn't working. If it is, he isn't a scrub and the other person is.

I understand the distinction in player, might point is none of those characters are "easy to learn" in the casual sense. They have low execution, but they don't have the cheap easy moves that draw casuals to them and grant free wins. An "easy to learn" casual character is someone like Hulk / Sentinel who wins with a single button, or Raiden / Smoke who can win with random teleports, or Arakune / Rachel who wins just because scrubs (or casuals, if you like) refuse to block.

Again, I don't fault you for not knowing the distinction, you probably don't have the misfortune of a) being a scrub or b) forced into a commitment to online play, but despite Ryu and Ken being only marginally different at low level play, there's a huge distinction between which of the two is "easy to learn".

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

What are talking about? This come from an expert player, he got top 9 at evo.

9th in a game with very little similarity to injustice at all.
Zoning is only as powerful as you perceive it to be at the moment, there are enough simple mechanics in this game that can be used to counter zone.
Cyborg is an exception.

Zoning in this game isn't anywhere near as much of a guess as the rush down is. Anybody that's played my WW (and isn't a GL player) will understand that.

There are no 'expert players' in injustice yet, not Belial, not REO, Brady, UFG & me, twins, Vsm & so on. Since day 1 (UK) I've only played Wonder Woman, I don't know everything about her, or how to approach most of the cast with her, it's all being pieces together. So to say that zoning is too strong right now is stupid, remember early days in MK, where we all thought rush down would be the ultimate king of the game. How wrong we we?

 

[PwnStar]

On the bolded and underlined:Are you sure?

You are my hero.

 

[Amadeous]

I understand the distinction in player, might point is none of those characters are "easy to learn" in the casual sense. They have low execution, but they don't have the cheap easy moves that draw casuals to them and grant free wins. An "easy to learn" casual character is someone like Hulk / Sentinel who wins with a single button, or Raiden / Smoke who can win with random teleports, or Arakune / Rachel who wins just because scrubs (or casuals, if you like) refuse to block.

Again, I don't fault you for not knowing the distinction, you probably don't have the misfortune of a) being a scrub or b) forced into a commitment to online play, but despite Ryu and Ken being only marginally different at low level play, there's a huge distinction between which of the two is "easy to learn".

I agree with you except when you say Arakune and Rachel.

They are two of the top 3 hardest characters to use, I poured 600 hours into Rachel and about 200 into Arakune so far.

I was a scrub once. I learned the error of my ways when I got heavy into Blazblue.

I think that is another reason Deathstroke gets hate. He is easier to zone with than someone like Rachel Alucard. If you zone with her even a scrub will respect you, (although there are less complainers in that community.).

Not hating on Injustice. I love both Injustice and MK, just saying I tend to get way more hatemail while playing them.

 

[aldazo]

...I was a scrub once...

Hahahahahahahaha... sorry man, please dont take this as an insult, it just made me laugh.

 

[Amadeous]

Hahahahahahahaha... sorry man, please dont take this as an insult, it just made me laugh.

It is cool we all were once. No shame in that.

 

[Simon Wayne]

This man is right. Injustice is a zoning dominated game. Takes skill away from the game at a CASUAL LEVEL imo. I know these boss players that can just go through repeated spam in their sleep but at a casual level I just feel like it was a zoning war. I still consider myself a pretty good player who can dominate my local area but anyways I invested so much of my life into Mortal Kombat and quit Injustice after about 2 weeks of play from absolutely shredding anyone online with Deathstroke. I just didn't have the patience to ride out the game because overall I saw that the way the game was just designed so much to favor zoning that it was just going to stay in a way that favored zoning. Interactables and heavy zoning favoring mechanics were the death of this game for me.

I guess I just wanted another MK10

 

[shaowebb]

Hello TYM

I am Soul Calibur V player, notably, I placed 9th at EVO 2012 and Top8 at MLG Raleigh 2012.
I am trying to play Injustice now and here are few issues I am concerned about.

NRS said they are aiming at new players, but it is unplayable to new players. Just frame punishment and timings, almost unexistant buffering windows, weird hitboxes and finally - severe disbalance. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying characters are not balanced. I am saying certain aspects of the game, such as specifically melee vs zoning - are unbalanced. In a bad way, that takes fun away from the game and makes it frustrating

The game favors zoning too much. At the same time, there are characters like Bane, Doomsday, Catwoman etc who do not zone.

There are a lot of ways to counter melee in the game, such as backdash, focus atacks (b+3/f+3 + MB), push block etc, but no ways to counter zoning. At the same time dash is not cancellable, movement is very slow.

Lets take a look at SF4 for a second. SF dash wasnt cancellable, walk speed was also slow, it also had focus atacks.
But
dash was really fast, fireballs were slow, focus costed no meter and game featured a lot of ways to counter fireballs
Injustice fireballs fly like jets, slow walk speed, slow dash, high jump arcs.

Take Catwoman for example, how do you approach? Only using MB-cDash, which is
1) Unsafe
2) Costs meter
3) Late armor

Playing against heavy zoners all your meter goes MB dash, or lucky focus, but thats it. Zoner can do nothing but backdash/walk back and bait your mistake. If there are interactibles around you're stuffed - you cant let them get to interactible (which further improve their zoning) but if you stay full screen - you're done.

For example Superman or Deathstroke. And I saw the video, that Tom Brady and REO recently put up.
To even get a chance at playing them with melee or weaker zoners you have to do what? Spent tons of time learning reaction to lazer, learn frametraps. You have to treat every blocked/ducked projectile differently as they provide different amount of blockstun, thus you need to react to everything well.
For me, the video "Overreacting to Deathstroke" from REO and TB actually showed how hard it is to get in and how many consecutive guesses you have to make and how every mistake puts you full screen away. It is wrong to force this on newer players.

I agree with all of this. EVERY. LAST. WORD.

I honestly think that what this game needs is a King of Fighters style roll that passes through projectiles, moves you inside and can be used to go behind folks for punishes. Add that and this game will get a LOT more intense and will feel like its core structure is far more balanced. However so many characters would need completely retooled on their moves due to this that it'd effectively be too hard to patch in.

This is why I say for a sequel either retool mobility vs zoning or build the game up around the addition of rolls. Otherwise if you want more in your face action you're going to have to keep adding more and more teleports and teleport dashes to the movesets and additions.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but what most of you are referring to is not zoning, it is keepaway.

Catwoman, Bane, and other rushdown characters do zone. In fact they zone all the time. Those characters rely on pushing their opponents to the corner(Which is one form of zoning).

I do think this game favors keepaway with pushblock, interactables, and clash. But it is also an extremely easy playstyle to counter. There are usually very simple solutions to most keepaway in this game. Superman lasers can be jumped and or dashed if timed correctly. Deathstroke guns on block grant a free dash. Raven can be walked in on pretty easily. The big thing is knowing frame data and when your opponent is negative. If you try and dash after Joker or Harley's guns you will get hit with something else, but you can jump their stuff.


This is just another example of things you really have to take into the lab. If you get beat by a keepaway character, go straight to training and set up that character repeating those tactics. Check the frame data so you really know the situation.

 

[aldazo]

...Catwoman, Bane, and other rushdown characters do zone. In fact they zone all the time. ...

do you live in the Bizarro world?

 

[BaronVonRupert]

do you live in the Bizarro world?

He's actually correct. Zoning is controlling space. Keep-away is trying to defeat your opponent with (mostly) projectiles (or ranged attacks/normals) only and not allowing them to get close.
Dhalsim is a good character to reference as he does both.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

He's actually correct. Zoning is controlling space. Keep-away is trying to defeat your opponent with (mostly) projectiles only and not allowing them to get close.

Technically they are the same thing though, but you are right. Superman can/does zone with lasers, it is just so strong (right now) that it people classify it as brain-dead.