Injustice Zoning

[Doombawkz]

Yes, to him and the other guys, "technically speaking", everybody is a zoning char... lol.

Don't antagonize, they aren't technically wrong but they are using the term unconventionally and in a way that isn't necessarily applicable to all fields of gaming when more specified terms exist to explain similar situations in games without ranged attacks.

 

[aldazo]

Don't antagonize, they aren't technically wrong but they are using the term unconventionally and in a way that isn't necessarily applicable to all fields of gaming when more specified terms exist to explain similar situations in games without ranged attacks.

. Ok man, you're right. It is just that I think Belial was clear enough in the first post, that's all.

 

[Saboteur-6]

Wow this thread...

On the zoning definition: Half of the argument is a matter of semantics. Zoning is erroneously used as a term for "keeping away with projectiles" when the player is actually playing keep away. To be even more confusing, "playing keep away using projectiles" is itself a type of zoning.

On the OP's first post: Honestly that post was from several months ago before several patches and before people started to understand the game better. To outside players coming to a NRS game for the first time, projectiles not canceling each other can be problematic. Despite what the OP points out as the game being "in favor of ranged over melee" the vast majority of damage, loops, frame advantage, and dirt come from melee range.

 

[BaronVonRupert]

Don't antagonize, they aren't technically wrong but they are using the term unconventionally and in a way that isn't necessarily applicable to all fields of gaming when more specified terms exist to explain similar situations in games without ranged attacks.

I'm simply using the term in a way that is applicable to the fighters that I have played. Bringing up Tekken was a good point and I'll consider using different terms the next time I discuss this. I appreciate the engagement, thanks.

 

[aldazo]

I'm simply using the term in a way that is applicable to the fighters that I have played. Bringing up Tekken was a good point and I'll consider using different terms the next time I discuss this. I appreciate the engagement, thanks.

You should read the first post again, I mean the original post, what this thread is about.

 

[BaronVonRupert]

You should read the first post again, I mean the original post, what this thread is about.

I have read it and I understand what it is about and I agree with all of it actually. Just figured i'd say what I had to say but perhaps I'll stay out of this sort of stuff in the future.

 

[Doombawkz]

I have read it and I understand what it is about and I agree with all of it actually. Just figured i'd say what I had to say but perhaps I'll stay out of this sort of stuff in the future.

I wouldn't go that far, your input is as valid as anyone's. just make sure you are being more focused on the content rather than the subject. You've done your research into the term to prove your point, and that's not something a lot of people are willing to do. It would be a shame to lose that kind of effort.

 

[Belial]

People who say "zoning is not just projectiles" are correct.
However my usage of word "zoning" was inspired by how everybody else refered to "deathstroke zoning" , "superman zoning" etc.
I hope my OP was understandable and didnt confuse anybody though.
Also, "zoner" is good word. Keepawayer, Fireballer, Projectiler - are not

I do not agree that game evolved past "keepaway". Although some DLC characters may change the MU charts enough.
You have to re-watch EVO if you think otherwise. Only two melee characters in top 8 were batman and KF (who are excellent anti-zoners). And they lost immediately taking 7-8.
Top 6 is heavy keepaway characters only. Some might say GA is not, but he can actually outzone most characters with his arrows and dash, as seen in some games by ChrisG.Most heavy "zoners" have excellent melee, so melee chars do not dominate close range, however zoner dominate far/mid range. In this game, you want to really respect Superman's f23, Adams b23, GLs b13 etc. To beat one, you have to be one.

The game is disbalanced towards projectile characters. I never meant to say they win b/c you can never reach them or b/c their main damage comes from fireballs. They win, b/c of how much more control over the game they have.

 

[aldazo]

People who say "zoning is not just projectiles" are correct.
However my usage of word "zoning" was inspired by how everybody else refered to "deathstroke zoning" , "superman zoning" etc.
I hope my OP was understandable and didnt confuse anybody though.
Also, "zoner" is good word. Keepawayer, Fireballer, Projectiler - are not

I do not agree that game evolved past "keepaway". Although some DLC characters may change the MU charts enough.
You have to re-watch EVO if you think otherwise. Only two melee characters in top 8 were batman and KF (who are excellent anti-zoners). And they lost immediately taking 7-8.
Top 6 is heavy keepaway characters only. Some might say GA is not, but he can actually outzone most characters with his arrows and dash, as seen in some games by ChrisG.Most heavy "zoners" have excellent melee, so melee chars do not dominate close range, however zoner dominate far/mid range. In this game, you want to really respect Superman's f23, Adams b23, GAs b13 etc. To beat one, you have to be one.

The game is disbalanced towards projectile characters. I never meant to say they win b/c you can never reach them or b/c their main damage comes from fireballs. They win, b/c of how much more control over the game they have.

THTB you should read this

 

[Saboteur-6]

People who say "zoning is not just projectiles" are correct.
However my usage of word "zoning" was inspired by how everybody else refered to "deathstroke zoning" , "superman zoning" etc.
I hope my OP was understandable and didnt confuse anybody though.
Also, "zoner" is good word. Keepawayer, Fireballer, Projectiler - are not

I do not agree that game evolved past "keepaway". Although some DLC characters may change the MU charts enough.
You have to re-watch EVO if you think otherwise. Only two melee characters in top 8 were batman and KF (who are excellent anti-zoners). And they lost immediately taking 7-8.
Top 6 is heavy keepaway characters only. Some might say GA is not, but he can actually outzone most characters with his arrows and dash, as seen in some games by ChrisG.Most heavy "zoners" have excellent melee, so melee chars do not dominate close range, however zoner dominate far/mid range. In this game, you want to really respect Superman's f23, Adams b23, GAs b13 etc. To beat one, you have to be one.

The game is disbalanced towards projectile characters. I never meant to say they win b/c you can never reach them or b/c their main damage comes from fireballs. They win, b/c of how much more control over the game they have.

Right because Superman is a keep away character.

 

[Flagg]

Zoning is throwing a shit ton of moves at someone that keeps them as far away as possible from you for minimal risks.

Why people have to make that concept harder than it has to be is baffling.

 

[Kiko]

Right because Superman is a keep away character.

Are you telling me he isn't so I can laugh at you?

Point me to the thread full of superman mixups and I'll believe you.


Edit: I personally believe superman (him and BA) is the best keep away character in the game. Just sayin.

 

[trufenix]

Are you telling me he isn't so I can laugh at you?

Point me to the thread full of superman mixups and I'll believe you.

So, those are the only types of characters there are, zoners or mixups?

 

[Kiko]

So, those are the only types of characters there are, zoners or mixups?

Essentially speaking you've got 3 types of area control. Those who control long, mid, and short range.

Superman excels in all three, but his long range game is better than literally most, while his close range tools are not as strong (I don't need to explain this, go visit the Superman forums if you don't know why).


To which I say superman is a keep away character who punishes mistakes and attempts to approach. He only really needs to rush down on certain opponents (like raven the anti zoner).

And I don't need anymore proof than the winner of EVO himself knowing that he "gets away with murder" with those eye lasers.

 

[trufenix]

Essentially speaking you've got 3 types of area control. Those who control long, mid, and short range.

Superman excels in all three, but his long range game is better than literally most, while his close range tools are not as strong (I don't need to explain this, go visit the Superman forums if you don't know why).


To which I say superman is a keep away character who punishes mistakes and attempts to approach. He only really needs to rush down on certain opponents (like raven the anti zoner).

And I don't need anymore proof than the winner of EVO himself knowing that he "gets away with murder" with those eye lasers.

Just having a good long range tool doesn't make you a zoner.

Superman is top tier because he is eggregiously well rounded, but his singular strength is not in eye laser zoning. It just isn't. I would think the difference between KDZ and every other superman out there proves it.

Superman can't win matches on eye lasers alone. That's the definition. Zoner : Wins by zoning. By comparison, Kabal wins tons of matches based solely on IAGB. That is why he qualifies. For lots of characters, he never has to poke and he never has to go in, just maintain iagb and punish with aND. Superman has no such luxury with the lasers. There's just too much armor and too much meter in Injustice for him to get away with it. He has to rely on F+2,3 eventually. This is why KDZ lost those few matches where he camped on a full meter and tried to just zone and punish with a super. Laser only Superman is one bad read away from a loss, because he is ignoring his primary damage output options.

tl;dr, Superman does not dominate (anymore than several other characters) until you incorporate f+2,3 pressure (and now, dive resets) neither of which are zoning tools, ergo he is not a zoner.

 

[Tony at Home]

That "overreacting to Deathstroke" video was pretty bad... it didnt take into account everyday players who play online, and cant possibly have the reflexes to dash between that- when the margin of error is like under 5 frames, thats ridiculous.

Also, when blocking that overhead MB from Deathstroke you need to block backwards. Miss that timing early , and you end up walking back a step, giving Deathstroke more time.

It was just a really condescending video...

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

That "overreacting to Deathstroke" video was pretty bad... it didnt take into account everyday players who play online, and cant possibly have the reflexes to dash between that- when the margin of error is like under 5 frames, thats ridiculous.

that is where you fail right there. If a player doesn't that the reflexes to compete, that isn't the games fault.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Just having a good long range tool doesn't make you a zoner.

Superman is top tier because he is eggregiously well rounded, but his singular strength is not in eye laser zoning. It just isn't. I would think the difference between KDZ and every other superman out there proves it.

Superman can't win matches on eye lasers alone. That's the definition. Zoner : Wins by zoning. By comparison, Kabal wins tons of matches based solely on IAGB. That is why he qualifies. For lots of characters, he never has to poke and he never has to go in, just maintain iagb and punish with aND. Superman has no such luxury with the lasers. There's just too much armor and too much meter in Injustice for him to get away with it. He has to rely on F+2,3 eventually. This is why KDZ lost those few matches where he camped on a full meter and tried to just zone and punish with a super. Laser only Superman is one bad read away from a loss, because he is ignoring his primary damage output options.

tl;dr, Superman does not dominate (anymore than several other characters) until you incorporate f+2,3 pressure (and now, dive resets) neither of which are zoning tools, ergo he is not a zoner.

This is 100% correct. Superman is not a zoner or mixups character. He relies purely on whiff punishing and forcing the opponent to make mistakes. That is what makes him so damn good because he has a ton of ways to force you to make mistakes.

Also whatever your definition of zoning is, it is still not overpowered over rushdown characters. Sure it sucks to get in with Catwoman but once I get in if I know what I am doing that zoner will not get me back out. There are many characters like Raven, Flash, and Aquaman that can just absorb/dodge projectiles and eventually corner you. There are characters with air dashes(These make supermans lasers suck btw) and characters with great armored moves.

There are many ways to beat mindless zoning. KDZ won because he is the best player in this game right now and his ability to push you the corner(or zone) and play his game. Over time Superman's lasers will either be normalized or we as a community will level up and find a way for our characters to beat them.

 

[Tony at Home]

The vast majority of players who buy this game, which gives NRS the revenue to patch and support it, are casual players. This game wouldnt exist without them, so saying-
" who cares? If they arent good enough to react in 5 frames (less than 1/10th a second) they shouldnt even play"
-Is an attitude this game cannot exist with. And NRS realized this when they patched DS.

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

Are you telling me he isn't so I can laugh at you?

Point me to the thread full of superman mixups and I'll believe you.


Edit: I personally believe superman (him and BA) is the best keep away character in the game. Just sayin.

At this point cyborg, zod, and deathstroke are all much more proficient at pure runaway than superman or black Adam could ever be

 

[M2Dave]

At this point cyborg, zod, and deathstroke are all much more proficient at pure runaway than superman or black Adam could ever be

Cyborg, Deathstroke, and Zod do not have the following.

- f+2,3 xx breath
- armor breaking trait
- 45% mid screen combos
- 65% corner combos
- dive bomb that crosses up
- 1F full screen overhead super move

If they did, they would be "normalized" in a heartbeat.

 

[Kiko]

Just having a good long range tool doesn't make you a zoner.

Superman is top tier because he is eggregiously well rounded, but his singular strength is not in eye laser zoning. It just isn't. I would think the difference between KDZ and every other superman out there proves it.

Superman can't win matches on eye lasers alone. That's the definition. Zoner : Wins by zoning. By comparison, Kabal wins tons of matches based solely on IAGB. That is why he qualifies. For lots of characters, he never has to poke and he never has to go in, just maintain iagb and punish with aND. Superman has no such luxury with the lasers. There's just too much armor and too much meter in Injustice for him to get away with it. He has to rely on F+2,3 eventually. This is why KDZ lost those few matches where he camped on a full meter and tried to just zone and punish with a super. Laser only Superman is one bad read away from a loss, because he is ignoring his primary damage output options.

tl;dr, Superman does not dominate (anymore than several other characters) until you incorporate f+2,3 pressure (and now, dive resets) neither of which are zoning tools, ergo he is not a zoner.

What's the difference between raven's "zoning" and b12 and superman's lasers + f23? What about sinestro and his half ass zoning? Superman's ground laser has incredibly range and the other heat zap has just as incredible properties.

Superman has two different lasers that have two separate properties, both great on chip. That makes two long range tools not just one, which arguably competes with a lot of other "zoners" in this game.

Just because superman can destroy you up close does as well as from afar does not change the fact that he can zone. Not to mention you forget that just because all of his tools aren't just zoning, he can "win by zoning," forcing your approach vs. rush down characters which I believe is what this topic is about. Also you shouldn't bring up the matches where KDZ loses by zoning, because instead I could easily look up tons of the EVO matched where plenty of characters lost to Superman's zoning, especially when it matters the most, usually towards the end of the match.


So you're right, it isn't his singular strength (of course not, he's superman) but it sure as hell helps dictate his control in a match. Arguing that it only takes one bad read on lasers is a null argument IMO. You can say the same exacccttttt thing about every and any form of zoner in the game! Raven, Sinestro, Hawkgirl (to some extent), Deathstroke, ZOD, Batgirl, Harley, KF, GL, need I continue?

Even Sinestro that lives and dies by zoning only takes a few good reads to eventually get in; same with superman. I don't see your point in "neither of which are zoning tools, ergo he is not a zoner." Some zoners have mediocre or good "rush down like tools" that could potentially classify them under a separate category, but with someone like superman you have to accept that he is good at everything, including zoning (especially with a counter intuitive laser that forces people to move backwards to block while trying to approach forward)

My point isn't that superman can't do other things (play close up, play mid range, destroy in the corner, air dash cross ups, etc.). My point is that he can do all these things AND zone as well which throws him into the category that the OP was talking about.


Oh and last edit : this isn't MK. Those IAGBs wouldn't have stayed in the game very long (i.e. cyborg), so using that to compare to this has no real value here. Zoning gets treated differently by the devs.

 

[Saboteur-6]

Man this thread is so derailed.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

The vast majority of players who buy this game, which gives NRS the revenue to patch and support it, are casual players. This game wouldnt exist without them, so saying-
" who cares? If they arent good enough to react in 5 frames (less than 1/10th a second) they shouldnt even play"
-Is an attitude this game cannot exist with. And NRS realized this when they patched DS.

Sorry, but that is BS.

There are plenty of people who can't pull of "touch of death" combos in Mahvel, why doesn't Capcom patch that?

There are tons of people who can't pull of 1 frame links in SF, why doesn't Capcom patch that?

There are tons of people around the world who like [enter anything here], so why don't we make everything accessible for everyone so things can be more fair?

Bottom line is, if you are a casual fan of a fighting game, play with your casual friends. Casual fans can't/shouldn't dictate how a "pro" player plays based on their own inabilities. If you want to argue whether this game should be a "pro" players game, that is a different topic all together, but as it stands the competitive scene has picked up the game, but it seems as if it is the casuals who want to run the show.

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

Cyborg does have 70 percent corner combos they just require a lot of meter and are nowhere near as practical as supes.
I wasnt arguing that those characters are better, just that if all both players are trhing to do is run away and throw projectiles, the cynorg/zod/ds will win pretty easily vs superman