Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Ice Clone does not function right part 2

[Bryck Walle]

Here's a question. Could it be that NRS designed it to interact the way it does? They made hurtboxes smaller and saw the effect it had on clone and kept it? I don't get how people need to learn to fight against sub yet tech comes showing you can reach sub zero if it stands close to it and that just has to go away.

Every MK with subzero having Ice Clone, the Ice Clone freezes on contact. If you want to learn to walk up block the clone and shatter it, go for it...But for the clone to literally let attacks go all the way through it. It's broken. Stop denying it's broken. This discussion needs to end.

P.S. Add an avatar and take away "noob" from under your picture. It's minor but it makes me doubt anything you say has value when you haven't been around for long.

 

[Sultani]

No two ways about it. This is dumb.

It just sucks that SZ gets all the attention and tweaks. Other. Shit is broken too.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Every MK with subzero having Ice Clone, the Ice Clone freezes on contact. If you want to learn to walk up block the clone and shatter it, go for it...But for the clone to literally let attacks go all the way through it. It's broken. Stop denying it's broken. This discussion needs to end.

P.S. Add an avatar and take away "noob" from under your picture. It's minor but it makes me doubt anything you say has value when you haven't been around for long.

Johnny Cage could d1 through Clone in MK9, as one example. Been too long for me to remember specific examples, but I want to say some normals went through Clone in both MKD and MKA. Can't speak for MK3 or MK4 because I didn't play them on that level.

I'm not saying it isn't goofy. Just that it's been there before.

 

[GAV]

How is it clear? because the clone isn't behaving how you want in that one scenario? How should it be fixed? That's what im trying to get at. You want clone to work better? How? Buff clone (dont say "fix" cause it will be buff clone hitbox becomes larger catching more moves and you can't just ignore the fact NRS made the moves the way they are.) Buffing clone changes matchups. Could be drastically. But no one wants to talk about that. Everyone here just wants to see clone do what THEY want it to do and everything should be ok after that right?

Fix it to match the visuals. I'm no programmer, but matching the hitbox with the visual just seems like basic common-sense.

 

[Yes_Zir]

There are still a good amount of issues with this game. It's only been out 2 months.

The clone not working properly issue just feels as, if not more, ridiculous than the instances shown where people poke or get through it or are able to stand in it.

It really doesn't change much. It's not like an opponent who pokes through is gonna convert that poke into any damage because they'd be so surprised and caught off guard they didn't get frozen when they got up pressing buttons.
And the select few that feel like they know the strings or the spacing to get through the clone, aren't going to realistically wait out a match for those instances.
I don't think there should be such a heavy reliance on the defensive clone set up because sub is a dangerous character when the clone is used more as a threat than a tool to stand behind.

 

[Defenestrator]

People hate their parents because they put limits on them and don't allow them to do anything they want.


People hate police because they put limits on them and don't allow them to do anything they want.


People hate Sub Zero because he puts limits on them and doesn't allow them to do anything they want.

Sub Zero Player or Sub zero victim (opponent)?

 

[GAV]

No two ways about it. This is dumb.

It just sucks that SZ gets all the attention and tweaks. Other. Shit is broken too.

Point it out.

 

[Bryck Walle]

There are still a good amount of issues with this game. It's only been out 2 months.

The clone not working properly issue just feels as, if not more, ridiculous than the instances shown where people poke or get through it or are able to stand in it.

It really doesn't change much. It's not like an opponent who pokes through is gonna convert that poke into any damage because they'd be so surprised and caught off guard they didn't get frozen when they got up pressing buttons.
And the select few that feel like they know the strings or the spacing to get through the clone, aren't going to realistically wait out a match for those instances.
I don't think there should be such a heavy reliance on the defensive clone set up because sub is a dangerous character when the clone is used more as a threat than a tool to stand behind.

You forget about a month from now. If this doesn't get fixed, everyone will know about it. Considering Clone goes away on block and people will know they can poke through it.... Think about it. Takes the same amount of skill to confirm a stray hit into a combo. If Subzero clone doesn't freeze, then it means Grandmaster is USELESS.

 

[Bryck Walle]

Johnny Cage could d1 through Clone in MK9, as one example. Been too long for me to remember specific examples, but I want to say some normals went through Clone in both MKD and MKA. Can't speak for MK3 or MK4 because I didn't play them on that level.

I'm not saying it isn't goofy. Just that it's been there before.

You're probably right about MK9. I can't say for sure about MKD and MKA but those games are buttcheeks anyways. My whole argument though is, if you don't fix the clone then grandmaster becomes useless. That leaves Cryomancer as his best Variation "which isn't terrible by anymeans imo" and unbreakable which is lacking to say the least. Without a proper working clone, grandmaster is basically useless.

 

[Yes_Zir]

You forget about a month from now. If this doesn't get fixed, everyone will know about it. Considering Clone goes away on block and people will know they can poke through it.... Think about it. Takes the same amount of skill to confirm a stray hit into a combo. If Subzero clone doesn't freeze, then it means Grandmaster is USELESS.

That's if it doesn't get fixed. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't get fixed.
And again, nobody is going to wait a full match for those instances just to exploit it. I think that this only really affects people that use the clone solely as a stand behind and the times a poke through happens are rare. I don't know, but I doubt many sub players have actually experienced this outside of seeing it on video from this thread or other sources.

 

[Bryck Walle]

That's if it doesn't get fixed. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't get fixed.
And again, nobody is going to wait a full match for those instances just to exploit it. I think that this only really affects people that use the clone solely as a stand behind and the times a poke through happens are rare. I don't know, but I doubt many sub players have actually experienced this outside of seeing it on video from this thread or other sources.

Any good subzero will put you in the corner every round at least once. I'm glad you agree it should be fixed, but having played against some really good subs, I can guarantee this is less rare than you think.

 

[RVB]

I go out for a walk in the park and when I come back this thread is already teaming with pointless argument... well then, let's begin:

But you cant demand a change because raiden can punish on reaction. Dont do I at neutral.Just dont sit RIGHT BEHIND IT. Like take a step back and you effectively have that defense wall again.

If sub zero can never make enough space in a situation where attacks would get frozen then yeah i'd have a problem. Just don't do clone in neutral against Raiden.You cant be directly behind the clone. It still works just fine if you take a step back.

It seems you have a problem then!
What you are suggesting cannot be put into use because when doing a superman on reaction to the klone you catch SZ in the recovery frames where he can't get away from the klone or block.
This is demonstrated in the second video in the OP.

This thread is literally for one move in one matchup at a specific distance. Like really?

No, this thread's purpose is to let people know that the klone is not doing it's job of freezing opponents on direct contact.

Does it look silly? Yes i agree. That does not mean it isn't fine the way it is.

Right now the arguement is "This LOOKS wrong and i dont like it. Fix that."

The visual glitches are not important. We can deal with some visual artifacts as long as the end result is the klone performing it's role or freezing the opponent on direct contact.

You're telling me you want to be able to stand in the clone? If it stops spear, tele, and normals than that would be broken.

I for one am totally against sub being able to sit in clone or be barely touching it. That's way too much.

Yes, I am telling you I want to be able to stand in the klone and it to have no effect of the klone's ability to freeze on direct contact.
Please explain why you think this would ever be considered as a broken aspect?

You can complain that you want it changed for whatever reason but it has to be an actually good reason. Not just "I want it to work this way."

The reason we want the klone to be looked at is that it is not doing what it is supposed to do.And I think plenty of people will agree that this is a good reason.

You don't say how you want it fixed, simply for it to be fixed.

You guys argue that this is unfair and makes clone too weak.
This a very delicate problem and everyone's response here is "fix it! fix it!". You don't know how for it to get fixed and don't give any suggestions how you want it fixed.

How should it be fixed? That's what im trying to get at. You want clone to work better? How?

Please understand that it is not our duty to offer solutions to this matter, we are here to show people that the klone is not fulfilling it's purpose.
It is up to NRS to decide what needs to be done with this and if it warants any changes.

What I see happening is people are discovering what pokes and strings are safe to attempt to breach ice clone pressure. For every 9 pokes that ice clone beats, maybe a character finds 1 poke that gives them a chance to touch sub who is waiting behind the clone. This apparently makes clone too weak and entails that it needs to be "fixed".

Is it an obvious issue? If clone stuffs 95% of a character's moves, but they can find one string or special with a hitbox that can touch sz standing right behind a clone, then does it mean that clone is broken, severely hampered, woefully underpowered, etc?

All this makes the klone an inconsistent and undependable tool that hurts SZ as a character as long as it does not freeze on direct contact 100% of the time.

I've yet to see you actually raise a counter arguement for anything besides saying "I want clone fixed"

That's because it would be pointless to do so, just like someone working at a dry cleaners asking a customer why they want their clothes clean? You just do.

1) making clone take priority over sub zero negates the original nerf since now sub can stay inside clone and not worry about blocking. Also this would majorly change matchups most likely into his favor.

Please be so kind as to list a few reasons why you believe fixing the klone will cause "major" matchup changes.
I'm sure we would all be delighted to hear you.

Thank all who had the patience to go through all of this.

 

[Supernova]

I'm so tired of hearing about Sub Zero... There's literally DOZENS of characters in this game--try someone else.

 

[Yes_Zir]

Any good subzero will put you in the corner every round at least once. I'm glad you agree it should be fixed, but having played against some really good subs, I can guarantee this is less rare than you think.

Agreed on being cornered. Played a fantastic sub earlier in a FT10. I won 10-9, Mileena v Sub. But I was never bold enough to try and poke through the clone without armor. He didn't really rely on it full screen either though. Just for applying and maintaining pressure.
While I think it is something that should be taken care of, I don't believe it really takes anything away from how he's played. Because against a good sub, your mind won't be on cheating through a clone.

And if it is less rare than it seems to be, I'd just say I've never fought against a sub and was able to poke through a clone without armor, nor have or would I try just to see if I'd be successful.

 

[Bryck Walle]

Agreed on being cornered. Played a fantastic sub earlier in a FT10. I won 10-9, Mileena v Sub. But I was never bold enough to try and poke through the clone without armor. He didn't really rely on it full screen either though. Just for applying and maintaining pressure.
While I think it is something that should be taken care of, I don't believe it really takes anything away from how he's played. Because against a good sub, your mind won't be on cheating through a clone.

And if it is less rare than it seems to be, I'd just say I've never fought against a sub and was able to poke through a clone without armor, nor have or would I try just to see if I'd be successful.

The whole debate about the clone isn't about the full screen pressure. It's about the clone in general. Especially being cornered against subzero and his clone is useless. I can guarantee a top player will exploit the hell out of the broken clone and Subz Corner pressure will no longer be a thing anymore.

 

[-narshkajke-]

I'm sorry not everyone agrees with you about how supposedly horrible a state your clone is in. However I do agree that leveling up definitely needs to be done, and that completely includes the whiny sz community.

habibi, it's not wise to mock the whole community just because you're disagree with logic and valid reasoning,, it's just a game chill up habibi

 

[VengeanceIsMine]

@colt

Please fix clone hit box so it actually freezes opponent upon contact. Thanks it's broken right now and makes the whole purpose of clone useless esp if the opponent knows they can poke thru it.

 

[Nereus]

I'm so tired of hearing about Sub Zero... There's literally DOZENS of characters in this game--try someone else.

That is very related to the topic being discussed in this thread

 

[buyacushun]

Every MK with subzero having Ice Clone, the Ice Clone freezes on contact. If you want to learn to walk up block the clone and shatter it, go for it...But for the clone to literally let attacks go all the way through it. It's broken. Stop denying it's broken. This discussion needs to end.

P.S. Add an avatar and take away "noob" from under your picture. It's minor but it makes me doubt anything you say has value when you haven't been around for long.

Talking about every other MK doesn't do anything because i'm sure NRS knew this. If they come out and claim that even the slightest touch should freeze i'll concede this argument. I won't like it nor think it's right but meh wouldn't be able to do much after that.

Also me being any new to these forums shouldn't affect you in a negative way especially when i'v shown i have a firm enough grasp on fighters to portray a hurtbox / hitbox issue. The NRS community should be welcoming any newcomers especially when they probably have the most negative stigma surrounding their game. Someone new comes in speaking reasonably with valid points shouldn't be outright ignored. And no i'm not saying heed my words and follow my advice but i should at the very least be listened to.

Fix it to match the visuals. I'm no programmer, but matching the hitbox with the visual just seems like basic common-sense.

Yes i thought that too until I saw the many cases of developers changing those very things to allow for better gameplay. It happens. SfxT got patched to where a lot of specific normals had upper torso invincibility. So the body is there but you can't touch it.

I go out for a walk in the park and when I come back this thread is already teaming with pointless argument... well then, let's begin:

1)
It seems you have a problem then!
What you are suggesting cannot be put into use because when doing a superman on reaction to the klone you catch SZ in the recovery frames where he can't get away from the klone or block.
This is demonstrated in the second video in the OP.

2)
No, this thread's purpose is to let people know that the klone is not doing it's job of freezing opponents on direct contact.


3)
The visual glitches are not important. We can deal with some visual artifacts as long as the end result is the klone performing it's role or freezing the opponent on direct contact.

4)
Yes, I am telling you I want to be able to stand in the klone and it to have no effect of the klone's ability to freeze on direct contact.
Please explain why you think this would ever be considered as a broken aspect?

5)
The reason we want the klone to be looked at is that it is not doing what it is supposed to do.And I think plenty of people will agree that this is a good reason.

6)
Please understand that it is not our duty to offer solutions to this matter, we are here to show people that the klone is not fulfilling it's purpose.
It is up to NRS to decide what needs to be done with this and if it warants any changes.

7)
All this makes the klone an inconsistent and undependable tool that hurts SZ as a character as long as it does not freeze on direct contact 100% of the time.

8)
That's because it would be pointless to do so, just like someone working at a dry cleaners asking a customer why they want their clothes clean? You just do.

9)
Please be so kind as to list a few reasons why you believe fixing the klone will cause "major" matchup changes.
I'm sure we would all be delighted to hear you.

Thank all who had the patience to go through all of this.

1) Exactly so don't do it in neutral. I'm sure there is some kinda midscreen setup to have clone out. Then take a step back and it's all yours. You just can't do it for free now against Raiden.

2) The clone does do it's job. It's just that there instances where other things are doing it's job. Take the F/T d1 for example. Who's to say the d1 hurtbox is how it is so it can be used more willingly? Has anyone tested to see how it trades against things? This is one of my complaints with the sub mains. You guys didn't do any actual research. Just recorded one instance of something not going how you expect and want it changed. A change that would affect the game mind you.

3) Once again the clone could be working perfectly according to NRS. Just cause it looks funky to you doesn't mean it's wrong. I thought a rule in RISK worked a certain way because it seemed fair to me. Then I was shown it actually works differently. My point is you could be interpreting this wrong. I would've been ok with just a "notice this thing" thread but you're asking for matchup changing things.

4) Because effectively being able to shut down a counterattack and mount your own offense whenever is crazy to me. Maybe not broken but definitely up there in a discussion of it being OP.

5) Arguments 2 and 3.

6) It isn't your job to find solutions. But it is your job to build a substantial case when asking for a change. Did any of you try the clone cancel in the vid and then space sub zero away or even block? No one knows because no one bothered to say anything if they did. Imagine I get a move being used to Anti Air me nerfed because i and a bunch of others feel my move should beat that move. That's it.

7) Is it undependable? in certain situations. I've already asked to be shown where this is cancelling out his gameplan enough to have a negative effect and no one rose to that challenge. That same thing would be used against any change thread. This should be used as an opportunity to enlighten a fellow player but i've just been met with "I want this fixed."

8) Wanting clean clothes is entirely different than changing up the rules to a game. If someone wanted the shot clock in basketball to start at 40 instead of 25 because they felt it "damaged" the game or the shot clock "wasnt doing it's job" they would need more proof than one example. I hope no rule is ever changed based on man like that.

9) Changing the clone so it catches way more things could very well make counter pokes irrelevant and give free 50/50s all day. You're the one asking for the change. Explain what you want and how it wouldn't majorly change matchups and such. You have to provide evidence not the other way around. Would you ask NRS to give reasons why if they left it alone, without first giving your own reasons why it should be changed?

 

[RM_NINfan101]

ComboFiend doesn't maintain anywhere near the levels of interactive activity Paulo does.

I'm 100% sure he regularly browses TYM and reads most of the threads and decides on his own what's to happen. And that's actually pretty lucky for us to have because no matter what the community thinks, he has a mind of his own and can decide for himself.

I had a reply to this, but since this is about SZ and not about NRS, I'd rather not reply and take this discussion elsewhere if you wish to continue it out of respect for the SZ players here.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Also in this topic you can clearly see who strictly only plays MK at a moderate level and who are fighting game players very, very blatantly. Sucks when the hitbox/hurtbox thing is actually correct, but SZ players cannot wrap around their head that they too have a hitbox/hurtbox that is affected by stuff like this in klone. AFAIK there is no invincibility on the body anywhere in NRS games, but there certainly are very odd hitboxes on some normals that if you looked at a hitbox viewer, you would go WTF.

Tom's right, the guys discussing the hitbox stuff is right, and SZ players are right. Problem is, it seems they all disagree on why/how it's happening. Who cares, you know it's an issue, then see if it gets fixed. Dunno why this thread is still going, what more could be added besides experimenting what goes through clone where and when on the screen? It's an issue clearly, let's hope NRS sees it and gives a response. If it's not fixed in the next update, I wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional.

 

[buyacushun]

Also in this topic you can clearly see who strictly only plays MK at a moderate level and who are fighting game players very, very blatantly. Sucks when the hitbox/hurtbox thing is actually correct, but SZ players cannot wrap around their head that they too have a hitbox/hurtbox that is affected by stuff like this in klone. AFAIK there is no invincibility on the body anywhere in NRS games, but there certainly are very odd hitboxes on some normals that if you looked at a hitbox viewer, you would go WTF.

Tom's right, the guys discussing the hitbox stuff is right, and SZ players are right. Problem is, it seems they all disagree on why/how it's happening. Who cares, you know it's an issue, then see if it gets fixed. Dunno why this thread is still going, what more could be added besides experimenting what goes through clone where and when on the screen? It's an issue clearly, let's hope NRS sees it and gives a response. If it's not fixed in the next update, I wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional.

I'm not trying to argue why. I already stated my argument is why say it's an issue and needs to be fixed. Especially when the people saying it is they don't care they just want it fixed. That's childish. Even yourself said if it's not fixed in the next update then you wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional. That's most of my point. They aren't asking for a quality of life thing or something like that. This has a direct effect on how the game will be played and that doesn't matter. Just as long as it's in their favor. That's what i'm trying to discuss and I've yet to get any responses where the players share the knowledge and actually help.

 

[mattnin]

I gotta admit, I don't like seeing raiden flying right through the ice clone like that. However, buff the clone too much and guys like Blood God Kotal are screwed. Maybe Raiden should be fixed *shrug*

I'll bet GM Sub players have no problem whatsoever with characters like Blood God Kotal vs the clone. It's just about right. I do see GM Sub players gripe against Raiden however....

 

[Yes_Zir]

The whole debate about the clone isn't about the full screen pressure. It's about the clone in general. Especially being cornered against subzero and his clone is useless. I can guarantee a top player will exploit the hell out of the broken clone and Subz Corner pressure will no longer be a thing anymore.

It hasn't happened though. A top player hasn't made sub's clone appear useless by exploiting these pokes. And I understand the worries "if" it isn't fixed, but they haven't happened. And sub, even with these finds, is far from useless in his grandmaster variation. A lucky poke isn't going to make sub any less viable during a match.

And I say lucky because it's not being exploited like an intentional occurrence constantly during matches. It's just something that's been found because it was noticed and taken into practice to see. But not something that has been so overwhelming during a match that sub players should feel like the variation is useless because in that instance, the clone doesn't work properly.
Just find other uses, different spacing, or better options until something is done about it. But don't count the clone out.

 

[buyacushun]

It hasn't happened though. A top player hasn't made sub's clone appear useless by exploiting these pokes. And I understand the worries "if" it isn't fixed, but they haven't happened. And sub, even with these finds, is far from useless in his grandmaster variation. A lucky poke isn't going to make sub any less viable during a match.

And I say lucky because it's not being exploited like an intentional occurrence constantly during matches. It's just something that's been found because it was noticed and taken into practice to see. But not something that has been so overwhelming during a match that sub players should feel like the variation is useless because in that instance, the clone doesn't work properly.
Just find other uses, different spacing, or better options until something is done about it. But don't count the clone out.

This. A hundered times this. I always ask to show me where this ruins the character but no one has anything to show.

EDIT: Imagine any change being made because "i thought IF this stayed and IF someone found a way to make it useable it would be OP". Everyone would question those patch notes. In any game.