Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Ice Clone does not function right part 2

[BloodyNights]

My biggest thing, is the clone has some issues with attacks going through it, at the same time it has issues with certain characters hurtboxes getting touched by the clone when they themselves are not touching it visually due to the way hitboxes/hurtboxes work. Which is why it's not an easy fix, and increasing it's hitbox's size could potentially screw up character balance. Which is what I believe Buyacushun is trying to state.

I'd personally like to just see the current state of the clone rock out for a little while. If it becomes a point where it actually is useless, instead of certain characters having an option against a random clone being placed on screen, then it might be time to adjust it, or at the very least buff other aspects of the character.

 

[Raiderhorn]

Here's my view:

The Klone's property is that if you touch it, it freezes you. This is what makes the ice Klone the ice Klone.
So if you touch it, it should freeze you. What's hard about that?
As to SZ standing in the klone and HitB/HurtB, Raiden shouldn't be able to fly through the Klone just because SZ has his pinky or knuckle in there... Only on EX should Raiden be able to get through. And there's no way Torr should be able to reach all the way through the Klone like that. If SZ is standing halfway in the Klone on both circumstances I would understand but honestly just SZ's hand in the Klone getting blown up I don't agree with. And if SZ is behind the Klone not even touching it, no one should be able to blow through it unless using EX or reasonable ranged attacks.

 

[HanSolo]

God I can't wait until the next salt report.

 

[Temptress]

Tom is a special kind of hypocrite; the kind that is so incredibly self-deluded that they are incapable of realizing that they are one & they ignore everyone's successful attempts to point out their blatant hypocrisy.

"Kitana is fine, she doesn't need buffs!"

Well, neither does Sub-Zero, so I suggest that you stop complaining and "level up". Characters are meant to have both strengths AND weaknesses. Right now, Sub-Zero's strengths heavily outweigh his supposed "weaknesses", so stop complaining about your top tier character and stop being a whiny little scrub.

After all, that's what you said to Kitana players, wasn't it? "Stop complaining, your character is fine."

 

[Bidu]

Yes

I do far worse to that character with Kotal lol

That doesn't make it fine at all. lol

You know what fine would look like? If the entire Ice Klone was active to freeze, instead of only having a tiny fraction of hitbox.

 

[Raiderhorn]

Tom is a special kind of hypocrite; the kind that is so incredibly self-deluded that they are incapable of realizing that they are one & they ignore everyone's successful attempts to point out their blatant hypocrisy.

"Kitana is fine, she doesn't need buffs!"

Well, neither does Sub-Zero, so I suggest that you stop complaining and "level up". Characters are meant to have both strengths AND weaknesses. Right now, Sub-Zero's strengths heavily outweigh his supposed "weaknesses", so stop complaining about your top tier character and stop being a whiny little scrub.

After all, that's what you said to Kitana players, wasn't it? "Stop complaining, your character is fine."

So your stance is to openly insult people then say stop making claims based on observations due to character treatment. Bravo. And this isn't a Kitana thread.
Still standing for some input from NRS on this issue.

 

[Temptress]

So your stance is to openly insult people then say stop making claims based on observations. Bravo. And this isn't a Kitana thread.
Still standing for some input from NRS on this issue.

Well, Tom has no issue openly insulting people and derailing threads with his whinging & hypocrisy, so why should I?

 

[Raiderhorn]

Well, Tom has no issue openly insulting people and derailing threads with his whinging & hypocrisy, so why should I?

Someone else's behaviour does not justify yours. Openly harassing could be reported. It's not hard to be civilized... Offer something more to this discussion other than openly insulting then offering a closed-minded point of view.

 

[BloodyNights]

 

[Zoidberg747]

Well, Tom has no issue openly insulting people and derailing threads with his whinging & hypocrisy, so why should I?

Kitana community confirmed full of divas.

Like holy shit, we get it. Kitana is bad, she needs buffs. Please leave this nonsense in the Kitana forums.

 

[Butt binocularsx]

Maybe you should just use ex close?

 

[Justice]

Tom is a special kind of hypocrite; the kind that is so incredibly self-deluded that they are incapable of realizing that they are one & they ignore everyone's successful attempts to point out their blatant hypocrisy.

"Kitana is fine, she doesn't need buffs!"

Well, neither does Sub-Zero, so I suggest that you stop complaining and "level up". Characters are meant to have both strengths AND weaknesses. Right now, Sub-Zero's strengths heavily outweigh his supposed "weaknesses", so stop complaining about your top tier character and stop being a whiny little scrub.

After all, that's what you said to Kitana players, wasn't it? "Stop complaining, your character is fine."

The difference being that Tom isn't asking for buffs, he's asking for what he feels are fixes.

I'm not entirely sure that this needs to be fixed the way that Tom would like. I do not relish the idea of Sub Zero being able to spam Clone unchecked. In light of the fact that certain normals from other characters are producing the same results as Raiden's Superman, a definite reexamination on the part of NRS would be called for.

 

[RVB]

@buyacushun Answer me these questions with yes or no!
When the use of a game tool in the same conditions results in different outcomes , is that tool broken and in need of a fix?
Example : Move that hits mid but sometimes whiffs on crouching characters that are blocking.

If I were to show the klone deployed in the same conditions but with different outcomes, will that make the klone broken and in need of a fix?
Yes or no answers please!

 

[BloodyNights]

@buyacushun Answer me these questions with yes or no!
When the use of a game tool results in multiple outcomes in the same conditions, is that tool broken and in need of a fix?
Example : Move that hits mid but sometimes whiffs on crouching characters that are blocking.

If I were to show the klone deployed in the same conditions but with different outcomes, will that make the klone broken and in need of a fix?
Yes or no answers please!

I can somewhat answer this for you, not always. An easy example is Jason's Mid hitting thrown machette. It's a mid right you can't duck it, however certain characters can use D4 which will low profile the move, making it whiff as if it was a high, despite that same D4 losing to mid strings. Another example is Jacqui's BF4, you can low profile it with certain moves despite it being a mid as well. Certain moves were intended to do certain things, so while you'd think they shouldn't get hit they do and vise versa. Also certain characters have different hurtboxes. For example B12>Ice clone in the corner against Scorpion in my video I posted Scorpion doesn't actually touch the clone as he is jumping forward, but he gets frozen. Tanya on the other hand just jumps right out of that same situation free.

 

[buyacushun]

Here's my view:

The Klone's property is that if you touch it, it freezes you. This is what makes the ice Klone the ice Klone.
So if you touch it, it should freeze you. What's hard about that?
As to SZ standing in the klone and HitB/HurtB, Raiden shouldn't be able to fly through the Klone just because SZ has his pinky or knuckle in there... Only on EX should Raiden be able to get through. And there's no way Torr should be able to reach all the way through the Klone like that. If SZ is standing halfway in the Klone on both circumstances I would understand but honestly just SZ's hand in the Klone getting blown up I don't agree with. And if SZ is behind the Klone not even touching it, no one should be able to blow through it unless using EX or reasonable ranged attacks.

Yes klone should freeze people who touch it. But what you don't put into the equations is that the freeze zone is wherever NRS decides it is. I've figured out another way to put this. It's not that clone shouldn't freeze. But you and some others have this notion that everywhere should freeze the moment you come into the slightest contact with it. Thing is, that's what you believe. It's not like that now and if you want that changed by all means ask for it. but you have to provide reasons besides that's the way you want it when you ask for changes that result in buffs/nerfs. Even if you claim this to be a "fix" it still will result in SZ getting buffed and/or other characters getting nerfed.

The difference being that Tom isn't asking for buffs, he's asking for what he feels are fixes.

I'm not entirely sure that this needs to be fixed the way that Tom would like. I do not relish the idea of Sub Zero being able to spam Clone unchecked. In light of the fact that certain normals from other characters are producing the same results as Raiden's Superman, a definite reexamination on the part of NRS would be called for.

This is a buff whether you see it as a "fix" or not. Making clone hit more things is a buff and would change matchups. Which is why you can't just demand this change.

@buyacushun Answer me these questions with yes or no!
When the use of a game tool results in multiple outcomes in the same conditions, is that tool broken and in need of a fix?
Example : Move that hits mid but sometimes whiffs on crouching characters that are blocking.

If I were to show the klone deployed in the same conditions but with different outcomes, will that make the klone broken and in need of a fix?
Yes or no answers please!

Anyone who ask for no or yes answers is afraid of the truth. Only time i've seen that is when someone wants to bend something to their liking. A mid not hitting in every occasion does happen and sometimes it's perfectly fine. Like all changes you have to look at it at a case by case basis.

As for clone. I already stated what i want to be shown. You sub players are constantly complaining about others not leveling up to fight sub zero. Yet when this "issue" came up I along with 1 or 2 others were the only ones who actually did some digging into the matter. I don't know if they are sub mains and i sure am not. I've raised a bunch of good points and questions that NONE of you have actually responded to. Sure you said something but didn't provide any proof, or reason, nothing. Just that you want it fixed because you think it should be. I'll look back at my previous posts and see if can make another demand list if need be.

This isn't hard. You want clone changed. Fine. But why? It can't be because it's wrong that something goes through in a specific situation. Prove it. You had no problem posting that video of you getting hit by Raiden fly when you did Clone. Guess what? People would call that a Punish. Might just be that in the matchup you can't clone in neutral. Nothing is inherently wrong with that. Variety in character designs causes this. What YOU NEED to do is actually show that this is a major problem. That could take 5 minutes in the lab or 4 months of high level footage. But that's what needs to happen when you ask for buffs/nerfs like this.

 

[buyacushun]

I can somewhat answer this for you, not always. An easy example is Jason's Mid hitting thrown machette. It's a mid right you can't duck it, however certain characters can use D4 which will low profile the move, making it whiff as if it was a high, despite that same D4 losing to mid strings. Another example is Jacqui's BF4, you can low profile it with certain moves despite it being a mid as well. Certain moves were intended to do certain things, so while you'd think they shouldn't get hit they do and vise versa. Also certain characters have different hurtboxes. For example B12>Ice clone in the corner against Scorpion in my video I posted Scorpion doesn't actually touch the clone as he is jumping forward, but he gets frozen. Tanya on the other hand just jumps right out of that same situation free.

This is the level that none of them seem to think to. Right now this "issue" is being looked at in a vacuum when you need to actually apply it in game. Low profiling adds an extra layer to projectile management. If we just saw it and went "that's not right" you would lose a whole aspect of fighters that has done way more good than harm. Also in the scorpion scenario. Should we just make clone lose to jumps on the way up? oh wait tanya can jump fine? then we should make jumps easier to catch by clone. See you can't do that and that's the problem I have with the initial cry of FIX FIX FIX.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

well unlike others, i have mad respect for Brady!
i played him in mk9 online, with not so bad connection, AND HE ROCKED IT.

i learned so much from that match, yes i was a sub zero player as well. among other characters

tom imo, understands how to play at a tournament level, he is a beast at testing in the lab. for god sakes he is NRS game tester.

i dont understand the hate towards tom brady.... he on the other hand has right to be angry, his character is getting ripped apart on each patch because a select few refuse to learn.

so i respectfully disagree with @Temptress

 

[BloodyNights]

This is the level that none of them seem to think to. Right now this "issue" is being looked at in a vacuum when you need to actually apply it in game. Low profiling adds an extra layer to projectile management. If we just saw it and went "that's not right" you would lose a whole aspect of fighters that has done way more good than harm. Also in the scorpion scenario. Should we just make clone lose to jumps on the way up? oh wait tanya can jump fine? then we should make jumps easier to catch by clone. See you can't do that and that's the problem I have with the initial cry of FIX FIX FIX.

It's just the way it goes, I think Tom Brady understands where we are coming from despite him wanting the clone to be fixed/buffed. Which is why he asked to close down the thread in the first place until he can come back with more evidence, and more lab work to support this "Fix" I can respect that. But it's tough for most people to understand it, and they will simply get mad, or insist that, that it is right. I can't get upset at them either, it's just how it goes. And as someone stated everyone is pretty much right. But how much something actually needs to be fixed and what will entail in the future is up to the balance team.

well unlike others, i have mad respect for Brady!
i played him in mk9 online, with not so bad connection, AND HE ROCKED IT.

i learned so much from that match, yes i was a sub zero player as well. among other characters

tom imo, understands how to play at a tournament level, he is a beast at testing in the lab. for god sakes he is NRS game tester.

i dont understand the hate towards tom brady.... he on the other hand has right to be angry, his character is getting ripped apart on each patch because a select few refuse to learn.

so i respectfully disagree with @Temptress

I believe everyone respects Tom Brady's gameplay, just don't let it go to fanboy levels. Also as far as I know he only received one nerf, so I wouldn't say picked apart. Tom still has a tournament viable character, there is no arguing that. He can still compete and show us what he is made of.

 

[RVB]

Anyone who ask for no or yes answers is afraid of the truth. Only time i've seen that is when someone wants to bend something to their liking. A mid not hitting in every occasion does happen and sometimes it's perfectly fine. Like all changes you have to look at it at a case by case basis.

The only reason I asked for a yes or no is the one you mentioned I don't want you to spin this in the way that makes it look like you're the one who knows everything there is to know.
But unwittingly you've actually answered my question IF you think that a move WHOSE PURPOSE IS TO HIT MID doesn't hit mid 100% of the time is WRONG than you have no clue about consistency and why that is important to a fighting game.
I'm done talking to someone who thinks that doing a move in a fighting game is akin to a lottery.

 

[buyacushun]

"Also, i'm not against changing Raiden's stuff or Sub Zero's but it is still early right? Wasn't that one of the major complaints the Sub Zero community had against the cooldown and block nerf? The ones that you guys almost instantly found a way around. This thing doesn't seem to affect anything but neutral against one character. Sub Zero will live."

"My argument to this is: If clone is behaving exactly as intended and Sub Zero can still play his game in most matchups besides doing the move at neutral against Raiden. Is that such a bad thing?"

"I'm still looking for any answers to my questions that will help the sub zero case. You can complain that you want it changed for whatever reason but it has to be an actually good reason. Not just "I want it to work this way.""

"It looks like nonsense sure. But can someone actually go into the lab and prove this situation can constantly happen AND it wrecks the grandmaster sub zero matchup. This is also has to apply to other matchups because you cant ask for changes based on one matchup. Then ill be all for better balance. Right now the arguement is "This LOOKS wrong and i dont like it. Fix that." To which I have stated that's not enough to warrant "fixes"/buffs/nerfs of any kind. That's the same reasoning behind the atrocities of NRS's past patching."

"No one is labbing anything. You found a counter to a move using one move. Thats the basics to fighting games. Has anyone gone into the corner with raiden and seen whats actually going on? Or tested it with the multitude of other things in the game?
Whining that a character can poke you out instead of seeing if you could counter it is exactly why the sub community are hypocrites. Mad that clone got nerfed because of lazy complainers yet you lose a slight advantage only in certain situations and it needs fixing. . .

Tom came with a vid showing an interesting interaction and claimed it was a glitch. I actually labbed and showed it's a matter of how the game computes hitbox and hurtbox. Who else has done that besides rvb and I think zeze. And their videos is just Tom's. So I have effectively done more "labbing" than the whole sub zero community on this whole subject. Come on!!!"

"Talking about every other MK doesn't do anything because i'm sure NRS knew this. If they come out and claim that even the slightest touch should freeze i'll concede this argument. I won't like it nor think it's right but meh wouldn't be able to do much after that. "

This is a like a compilation of everything i've been saying from various posts in this thread alone. If the sub mains want a "fix" on clone that will actually buff him or nerf other characters you HAVE TO DO RESEARCH. Video of you doing one thing in training mode ain't research. You have to actually show how this affects things. I have done more research on this than the sub mains unless you guys have shit you're not posting. Say all you want about how clone "should" be. Truth is it's not and even though i'll be the first to give NRS shit on some weird design choice they have i'll give them the benefit of a doubt they realized how they programmed clone before the game shipped. Give me more than "I said its a problem" and i just might be down with buffing clone or nerfing others.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Tom still has a tournament viable character, there is no arguing that. He can still compete and show us what he is made of.

i dont feel he has what you are stating. in the past he has been in the top 10 on alot of his tourny's, havent seen him there once this time around. and afraid sub will never make it there!

 

[BloodyNights]

i dont feel he has what you are stating. in the past he has been in the top 10 on alot of his tourny's, havent seen him there once this time around. and afraid sub will never make it there!

I got faith in Tom, he can lab it up and figure out what he can and cannot do in matches. He is a good player, give him more credit than that.

 

[buyacushun]

It's just the way it goes, I think Tom Brady understands where we are coming from despite him wanting the clone to be fixed/buffed. Which is why he asked to close down the thread in the first place until he can come back with more evidence, and more lab work to support this "Fix" I can respect that. But it's tough for most people to understand it, and they will simply get mad, or insist that, that it is right. I can't get upset at them either, it's just how it goes. And as someone stated everyone is pretty much right. But how much something actually needs to be fixed and what will entail in the future is up to the balance team.

That's the thing that bugs me the most. TOM BRADY HIMSELF said he should go get more evidence and do more lab work. Yet no one else should? That's not a sign that maybe just maybe what i'm saying makes a lot of sense?

The only reason I asked for a yes or no is the one you mentioned I don't want you to spin this in the way that makes it look like you're the one who knows everything there is to know.
But unwittingly you've actually answered my question IF you think that a move WHOSE PURPOSE IS TO HIT MID doesn't hit mid 100% of the time is WRONG than you have no clue about consistency and why that is important to a fighting game.
I'm done talking to someone who thinks that doing a move in a fighting game is akin to a lottery.

I am not trying to make it seem like i know everything. I don't which is why i've stated you have to give these things a real long hard look before you claim nerf or buff. I am even ok with being shown that this should be buffed and ill be all for it if it makes sense to me.

You must not play anything besides MKx if low profiling things is crazy to you. This is also why this is so hard for you people to believe. You don't actually GET the games. There could very well be a case where if you made a mid hit mid 100% of the time you would make the hitbox so good it was the only normal you needed. That is an exaggeration but it is the type of outlook you need to even begin to talk about balance.

Also nice of you to ignore my post where i actually challenge to prove your case . . . again. I said it before and i'll say it again. I am one of the few players who looked into this without going "OMG THIS IS WRONG". A non sub main is doing your work for you. Yes it is your work. Unless when NRS balances the game they take one instance of an interaction out of 1000s of possibilities and make changes.

EDIT: @BloodyNights will hopefully get a reply after explaining one of the common tools being used in footsies and projectile management since i dont know when.

 

[BloodyNights]

I propose a different fix that should satisfy Sub-Zero mains. Instead of touching the clone at all. Why not reduce Sub-Zero's standing hurtbox slightly? Sure it's a buff but it is a bit overboard in my opinion for his own hurtbox to extend so far out. It might also fix Raiden blasting through the ice clone without being frozen.

This is just an example of how much it sticks out, most characters I have to be a bit closer for this to connect.

 

[Nereus]

I gotta admit, I don't like seeing raiden flying right through the ice clone like that. However, buff the clone too much and guys like Blood God Kotal are screwed. Maybe Raiden should be fixed *shrug*

I'll bet GM Sub players have no problem whatsoever with characters like Blood God Kotal vs the clone. It's just about right. I do see GM Sub players gripe against Raiden however....

The problem with this statement is that there will always be matchup where it's either in someone's favor, or heavily in someone's favor. Saying not to buff the clone because Kotal will struggle and saying Raiden should be fixed because of Sub-Zero can tend to be illogical due to this fact. That is something that people need to understand when asking for these nerfs and buffs.I'm not saying you