Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Ice Clone does not function right part 2

[buyacushun]

I propose a different fix that should satisfy Sub-Zero mains. Instead of touching the clone at all. Why not reduce Sub-Zero's standing hurtbox slightly? Sure it's a buff but it is a bit overboard in my opinion for his own hurtbox to extend so far out. It might also fix Raiden blasting through the ice clone without being frozen.

This is just an example of how much it sticks out, most characters I have to be a bit closer for this to connect.

Please tell me you actually play sub zero and are not actually thinking about reasonable balance changes for someone else. please.

 

[BloodyNights]

Please tell me you actually play sub zero and are not actually thinking about reasonable balance changes for someone else. please.

I play Sub-Zero lol

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm torn. Part of me would like the clone fixed to something stable, just because I never know what it's going to do, I'd rather something that behaved consistently and neither me nor my opponent have good reads thrown off by the Clone doing random shit. That being said, if there is no way to do this without throwing out SZ's balance, maybe we should just leave it. I don't think fixing this would even put him up a single position as far as tiering goes though to be honest. Slight buff to the effectiveness of it, it's not like you can safely try attacking through Clones as it stands, it's so positioning and luck dependant that it will screw you as often as it pays off or even more so, this just seems like a proposed consistency fix that will make it behave consistently and just perform it's role. Not some OP buff.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I got faith in Tom, he can lab it up and figure out what he can and cannot do in matches. He is a good player, give him more credit than that.

Exactly this, and SZ play isn't like say Sonya play, it's far more about knowing the character on the other side of the screen as well.


Look at what TB could do with bottom tier MK9 Sub, he's gonna tear up some events when he decides he's ready and fighting fit.... Tom Brady gonna come out that training room like Goku stepping out the Hyperbolic Time Chamber

 

[Bidu]

Well. It was not this time, Sub-Zero players. Maybe at MK 11?

 

[UltraDavid]

Hey @buyacushun you're totally right about the hitbox/hurtbox thing imo. It's silly to call this a glitch, it's just an unintuitive interaction between a move with a smaller collision box than its graphical representation (clone) and moves whose hitboxes extend significantly past their hurtboxes or their graphical representations (Raiden superman, Torr d1, etc, aka moves that are not coincidentally among the best in the game in their categories). Some things that don't look like they'll interact w clone end up frozen too because their hurtboxes are bigger than they look. That's hitboxes though!

Anyway @Tom Brady I dunno why you brought me into this thread, like I said before I don't necessarily mind buffing the collision box on clone. But understand that you guys are living in a world of shoulds, where clone should freeze at point X and not just at point Y, where f42 xx clone should be safe, etc. Why do you insist so strongly on living there? Why not take the game as it is and try to work with the tools you have? Maybe the strength of clone hasn't been fully fleshed out yet? The game is like 2 months old, let it marinate a bit. Personally I'd rather have minimal buffs and nerfs this early on in the game's life.

Sometimes I feel like there's as much brainpower spent looking for buffs as for different ways to use existing tools That's too bad, cause I know there's player talent there!

 

[BloodyNights]

No one commented on my proposed change ;~; besides buya...lol

 

[-narshkajke-]

Tom is a special kind of hypocrite; the kind that is so incredibly self-deluded that they are incapable of realizing that they are one & they ignore everyone's successful attempts to point out their blatant hypocrisy.

"Kitana is fine, she doesn't need buffs!"

Well, neither does Sub-Zero, so I suggest that you stop complaining and "level up". Characters are meant to have both strengths AND weaknesses. Right now, Sub-Zero's strengths heavily outweigh his supposed "weaknesses", so stop complaining about your top tier character and stop being a whiny little scrub.

After all, that's what you said to Kitana players, wasn't it? "Stop complaining, your character is fine."

the problem is, it's ok if you have beef with brady, but sub-zero is not just brady's characters, many people play him, there's a problem that needed to be fix, and it's about sub's not brady.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Shotgun Insanity's post has been added to the OP.

that signature lmao

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Well. It was not this time, Sub-Zero players. Maybe at MK 11?

na itll be longer than that

 

[buyacushun]

I play Sub-Zero lol

OK Good. One Sub Zero main doing something. Besides Tom of course. You are one of the few who seem to actually understand fighters. I will be the only one to comment on your ideas because anyone who was vocal against just want things done for them. So keep spouting ideas.

I'm torn. Part of me would like the clone fixed to something stable, just because I never know what it's going to do, I'd rather something that behaved consistently and neither me nor my opponent have good reads thrown off by the Clone doing random shit. That being said, if there is no way to do this without throwing out SZ's balance, maybe we should just leave it. I don't think fixing this would even put him up a single position as far as tiering goes though to be honest. Slight buff to the effectiveness of it, it's not like you can safely try attacking through Clones as it stands, it's so positioning and luck dependant that it will screw you as often as it pays off or even more so, this just seems like a proposed consistency fix that will make it behave consistently and just perform it's role. Not some OP buff.

Thing is making buffs this early could lead to ruined matchups. Or perfect ones. Who knows? But I just want some actual thought put into this before saying it's a "problem" and should be "fixed". That's like the TYM outlook on anything that doesn't whatever is the posters agenda.

Hey @buyacushun you're totally right about the hitbox/hurtbox thing. It's silly to call this a glitch, it's just an unintuitive interaction between a move with a smaller collision box than its graphical representation (clone) and moves whose hitboxes extend significantly past their hurtboxes or their graphical representations (Raiden superman, Torr d1, etc, aka moves that are not coincidentally among the best in the game in their categories).

Anyway @Tom Brady I dunno why you brought me into these thread, like I said before I don't necessarily mind buffing the collision box on clone. But understand that you guys are living in a world of shoulds, where clone should freeze at point X and not just at point Y, where f42 xx clone should be safe, etc. Why do you insist so strongly on living there? Why not take the game as it is and try to work with the tools you have? Maybe the strength of clone hasn't been fully fleshed out yet? The game is like 2 months old, let it marinate a bit. Personally I'd rather have minimal buffs and nerfs this early on in the game's life.

Sometimes I feel like there's as much brainpower spent looking for buffs as for different ways to use existing tools That's too bad, cause I know there's player talent there!

Cosigned by @UltraDavid Game, Set, Match. You should put an avi and change the "noob" under your name. I've been told that makes it harder for people to listen to you . . . . maybe not you since you're name is orange . . . . . hmmmm. Anyways, thanks. I would like to preserve this thread as a prime example of where the NRS community's negative stigma comes from.

 

[RVB]

You don't actually GET the games.

Oh but you do and have come here to enlighten all of us SZ scrubz, we will try to build a statue in your honor.

A non sub main is doing your work for you. Yes it is your work.

You sound like someone here FORCED you to do "all this work", if you don't like doing this work "for us" then simply... DON'T
I have videos where I recorded SZ to deploy the clone and block and I got the FOLLOWING DISTINCT OUTCOMES FROM THE KLONE.
Do superman point blank on the klone and you get frozen regardless if you wait for SZ to block or do it on reaction to catch the klone recovery.
Do superman at jump in distance and even a little further and you get frozen when SZ blocks .
Do Superman on reaction at jump in distance and a little further and SZ gets hit.
Do superman far away and cross screen and Raiden doesn't get frozen.
Do superman on reaction far away and cross screen and SZ gets hit.
All of that means the klone isn't consistent and it should be looked at by the developer to see what exactly is causing this and decide what needs to be done.
GET IT???

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Is b1 klone safe?

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Oh but you do and have come here to enlighten all of us SZ scrubz, we will try to build a statue in your honor.

You sound like someone here FORCED you to do "all this work", if you don't like doing this work "for us" then simply... DON'T
I have videos where I recorded SZ to deploy the clone and block and I got the FOLLOWING DISTINCT OUTCOMES FROM THE KLONE.
Do superman point blank on the klone and you get frozen regardless if you wait for SZ to block or do it on reaction to catch the klone recovery.
Do superman at jump in distance and even a little further and you get frozen when SZ blocks .
Do Superman on reaction at jump in distance and a little further and SZ gets hit.
Do superman far away and cross screen and Raiden doesn't get frozen.
Do superman on reaction far away and cross screen and SZ gets hit.
All of that means the klone isn't consistent and it should be looked at by the developer to see what exactly is causing this and decide what needs to be done.
GET IT???

i feel like if he replies you're bout to go off on this fool

 

[I GOT HANDS]

the problem is, it's ok if you have beef with brady, but sub-zero is not just brady's characters, many people play him, there's a problem that needed to be fix, and it's about sub's not brady.

Exactly. Plenty of us think Brady is a dick for his silliness involving Kitana.

 

[buyacushun]

Oh but you do and have come here to enlighten all of us SZ scrubz, we will try to build a statue in your honor.

You sound like someone here FORCED you to do "all this work", if you don't like doing this work "for us" then simply... DON'T
I have videos where I recorded SZ to deploy the clone and block and I got the FOLLOWING DISTINCT OUTCOMES FROM THE KLONE.
Do superman point blank on the klone and you get frozen regardless if you wait for SZ to block or do it on reaction to catch the klone recovery.
Do superman at jump in distance and even a little further and you get frozen when SZ blocks .
Do Superman on reaction at jump in distance and a little further and SZ gets hit.
Do superman far away and cross screen and Raiden doesn't get frozen.
Do superman on reaction far away and cross screen and SZ gets hit.
All of that means the klone isn't consistent and it should be looked at by the developer to see what exactly is causing this and decide what needs to be done.
GET IT???

I apologize for saying you don't GET the games. That gets this discussion nowhere.

If you are testing superman against sub zero doing clone and then just blocking I have already posted this. For me it usually froze Raiden but there instances where it hits. On the one that hit i can get the video to pause and see Raiden's hands go right through the clone right before he touches sub zero. This leads me to believe the inconsistencies are from hitbox and hurtbox interaction. My question to you now is does this destroy the Raiden/Sub Zero matchup so much if Sub cant clone in neutral for fear of a superman punish? The distance requirement was not meant for Raiden but actually it's meant for Sub Zero. If you had been doing tests then why not say so and state some facts? Because no matter how you look at it. To change this would be to buff sub zero's clone or nerf Raiden and potentially other characters in the roster. I'm all down for all of that but not before actually looking into first before demanding changes.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that this could be just an odd thing that you have to live with if it turns out not so major.

 

[BloodyNights]

Oh but you do and have come here to enlighten all of us SZ scrubz, we will try to build a statue in your honor.

You sound like someone here FORCED you to do "all this work", if you don't like doing this work "for us" then simply... DON'T
I have videos where I recorded SZ to deploy the clone and block and I got the FOLLOWING DISTINCT OUTCOMES FROM THE KLONE.
Do superman point blank on the klone and you get frozen regardless if you wait for SZ to block or do it on reaction to catch the klone recovery.
Do superman at jump in distance and even a little further and you get frozen when SZ blocks .
Do Superman on reaction at jump in distance and a little further and SZ gets hit.
Do superman far away and cross screen and Raiden doesn't get frozen.
Do superman on reaction far away and cross screen and SZ gets hit.
All of that means the klone isn't consistent and it should be looked at by the developer to see what exactly is causing this and decide what needs to be done.
GET IT???

I did some testing on F42> EX Clone. After a clone is put out, Sub-Zero's hurtbox is extended so if Raiden Immediately does a Superman he will hit him, however if the Raiden pauses and Sub-Zero goes back to a normal stance then Raiden get's frozen.

 

[UltraDavid]

Cosigned by @UltraDavid Game, Set, Match. You should put an avi and change the "noob" under your name. I've been told that makes it harder for people to listen to you . . . . maybe not you since you're name is orange . . . . . hmmmm. Anyways, thanks.

I'm really not that fancy but I do think you're right about this stuff.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

The interaction isn't just with Raiden, that's just an easy to demonstrate example. There is so many different things that have weird and inconsistent interactions, have you seen all the different videos demonstrating it being posted?

Something is happening weird and as I explained before, fixing it seems EXTREMELY unlikely to significantly change any match up, it adds the consistency of knowing what the clone is going to do for both sides

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Exactly. Plenty of us think Brady is a dick for his silliness involving Kitana.

i love brady have you ever watched his stream this fool is forever going off and screaming then like look at dms' signature pure quality banter.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

i love brady have you ever watched his stream this fool is forever going off and screaming then like look at dms' signature pure quality banter.

The guy is a character for sure, like every other human being he has his positives and negatives. I love all the work he's put in on SZ, and the unintentional humour he brings to practically everything he does. Glad to have him around, that being said someone in his position should think before he posts about other characters and it was a dick move to say Kitana was fine.

 

[buyacushun]

The interaction isn't just with Raiden, that's just an easy to demonstrate example. There is so many different things that have weird and inconsistent interactions, have you seen all the different videos demonstrating it being posted?

Something is happening weird and as I explained before, fixing it seems EXTREMELY unlikely to significantly change any match up, it adds the consistency of knowing what the clone is going to do for both sides

OK the interactions are weird but are they all from sub zero standing next to clone? Or maybe it's just the hurtbox on the other characters? If you just show Raiden going through as a punish that's not that much help. to anyone even NRS. This change will affect something about the game and it could very well be played around knowing that you can't stand right next to clone or your opponent might catch you with something. If someone shows that this shit harms matchups or something i might be all for changing whatever needs to be changed. But if it's just funny shit that can happen there are bigger fish to fry to get the game balanced.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

The guy is a character for sure, like every other human being he has his positives and negatives. I love all the work he's put in on SZ, and the unintentional humour he brings to practically everything he does. Glad to have him around, that being said someone in his position should think before he posts about other characters and it was a dick move to say Kitana was fine.

i only pay attention to his sub zero stuff bc thats the only one he has top notch knowledge with

 

[BloodyNights]

I'm uploading a video showing that the inconsistencies of Raiden Supermaning through Ice clone sometimes works, and why it sometimes doesn't work. Boils down to Sub-Zero's hurtbox after a clone. It's extended too far out during the actual recovery animation. And until he goes back to neutral he will be hit by superman, other wise Superman is frozen like a lil bitch lol

 

[BloodyNights]

So who wants to go back to my original buff that I suggested on reducing Sub-Zero's hurtbox slightly? lol