Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Ice Clone does not function right part 2

[RVB]

I apologize for saying you don't GET the games. That gets this discussion nowhere.

If you are testing superman against sub zero doing clone and then just blocking I have already posted this. For me it usually froze Raiden but there instances where it hits. On the one that hit i can get the video to pause and see Raiden's hands go right through the clone right before he touches sub zero. This leads me to believe the inconsistencies are from hitbox and hurtbox interaction. My question to you now is does this destroy the Raiden/Sub Zero matchup so much if Sub cant clone in neutral for fear of a superman punish? The distance requirement was not meant for Raiden but actually it's meant for Sub Zero. If you had been doing tests then why not say so and state some facts? Because no matter how you look at it. To change this would be to buff sub zero's clone or nerf Raiden and potentially other characters in the roster. I'm all down for all of that but not before actually looking into first before demanding changes.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that this could be just an odd thing that you have to live with if it turns out not so major.

No apologies needed, I know for a fact that this game makes my head bleed on the inside and it makes my asshole side come out and play.

I wanted to be thorough on the tests so I started from scratch, I didn't say anything because I was afraid the vids would end up like the others buried in mounds of bickering.
At the end of the day we both want the same thing and that is a better MKX and NRS taking a look at this NOT straight up buffing the klone just taking a look and deciding if a change is needed or not cannot hurt the game.

As for Raiden vs GM Sub, if I could manage to do superman on reaction to the klone then imagine what a high level Raiden player can do.
It's not the damage that the superman does, it's the corner carry that is the most dangerous thing, and when any potential klone gets you sent in the corner and has you deal with the coin flip game, then yeah I think the way the klone is right now does affect matchup in a major way.
BUT if NRS look at this and say "well we decided on leaving it like this" then all we have to do is accept it for what it is.
Like I said what SZ mains want is for NRS to decide on this matter, does it get changed... hooray, it stays the same... back to work you lazy sods.

 

[Bryck Walle]

I'm uploading a video showing that the inconsistencies of Raiden Supermaning through Ice clone sometimes works, and why it sometimes doesn't work. Boils down to Sub-Zero's hurtbox after a clone. It's extended too far out during the actual recovery animation. And until he goes back to neutral he will be hit by superman, other wise Superman is frozen like a lil bitch lol

So what you're saying then....is that this needs to be fixed? Imagine that. Wonder who was trying to tell us we're wrong.

 

[ZeZe]

Sry I'm bringing it now, but yesterday was watching ECT the whole night. So, to my: In corner situation if Sub takes half step back from the clone, his only attack reaching far enough is his b2. Then you take away his 50/50 because he needs to take step in for his b33 to connect. This kills SubZ's corner game. If you see him stepping back you know the only thing you can expect is his overhead. You said:

In theory yes but clone is also still out and the opponent is just gonna watch you dance trying to range some normals or bait him into poking out and getting frozen. There is way more happening during play than a 50/50 being lost. Someone mentioned using d3 or the b2 from that distance. What does a d3 give on hit and on block. The post was saying on hit you get the 50/50 anyways. (Could also be d4 i dont quite remember.)
.

D3 requires same proximity as b33. You have to take step in to the clone. D4 is a low far reaching poke (a good one) but you can't combo of it. So the only thing left is B2 overhead. There is no need to poke a klone if you know Sub's only reaching far enough normal is his overhead. You just stay in the corner blocking high until clone goes away. Mind you, Sub is one of the lowest damaging character as trade off for how good clone supposed to be in the corner. Now half of the cast being able to poke him out of the clone prevents him from performing any low string which requires stepping into the clone therefore no 50/50 to already low damage character.

I'll try to play some more in the lab after work. Maybe there's some other way to get 50/50 in the corner after all, but then wouldn't we know about it already?

 

[BloodyNights]

So what you're saying then....is that this needs to be fixed? Imagine that. Wonder who was trying to tell us we're wrong.

I've been gunning for a different fix or buff rather, than Ice Clone. I want Sub-Zero's standing hurtbox to be reduced which is why I posted a video earlier and I'll post it again because you obviously didn't see it.

This would fix Raiden blasting through the ice clone most likely, and stop him from being poked from way further away than most characters.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I really like that suggest @BloodyNights , I can only speak for myself. Seems fair to everyone

 

[BloodyNights]

I really like that suggest @BloodyNights , I can only speak for myself. Seems fair to everyone

Well it will also buff all of his variations, but besides that after doing tons of testing with characters hitbox's/hurtboxes with Ice clone. I've come to the conclusion that the hitbox of the clone is perfectly fine. It's the characters themselves not having hurt boxes on some of their limbs for priority sake. Only way to fix this would be to create an extra layer of specific hurtboxes on characters limbs with one function and that would be to touch the ice clone and get frozen. Either that or nerf tons of characters normals.

So with this buff it could help in two different ways, it could fix him getting poked from further away, which might stop opponents from poking through the clone and hitting him while he is starting up pressure with the clone. And it could also stop random stuff like Superman flying at him and smacking him in the face without meter.

 

[Zebster]

Sry I'm bringing it now, but yesterday was watching ECT the whole night. So, to my: In corner situation if Sub takes half step back from the clone, his only attack reaching far enough is his b2. Then you take away his 50/50 because he needs to take step in for his b33 to connect. This kills SubZ's corner game. If you see him stepping back you know the only thing you can expect is his overhead. You said:



D3 requires same proximity as b33. You have to take step in to the clone. D4 is a low far reaching poke (a good one) but you can't combo of it. So the only thing left is B2 overhead. There is no need to poke a klone if you know Sub's only reaching far enough normal is his overhead. You just stay in the corner blocking high until clone goes away. Mind you, Sub is one of the lowest damaging character as trade off for how good clone supposed to be in the corner. Now half of the cast being able to poke him out of the clone prevents him from performing any low string which requires stepping into the clone therefore no 50/50 to already low damage character.

I'll try to play some more in the lab after work. Maybe there's some other way to get 50/50 in the corner after all, but then wouldn't we know about it already?

I was wondering, is there not a good clone set up where Sub can hit the opponent with slide and cause them to get frozen by the clone when they get knocked into the air? That would give him a (still unsafe) 50/50 in a situation where you would be walking back (either b2 or slide).

EDIT: In the corner, of course.

 

[Tom Brady]

Hey @buyacushun you're totally right about the hitbox/hurtbox thing imo. It's silly to call this a glitch, it's just an unintuitive interaction between a move with a smaller collision box than its graphical representation (clone) and moves whose hitboxes extend significantly past their hurtboxes or their graphical representations (Raiden superman, Torr d1, etc, aka moves that are not coincidentally among the best in the game in their categories). Some things that don't look like they'll interact w clone end up frozen too because their hurtboxes are bigger than they look. That's hitboxes though!

Anyway @Tom Brady I dunno why you brought me into this thread, like I said before I don't necessarily mind buffing the collision box on clone. But understand that you guys are living in a world of shoulds, where clone should freeze at point X and not just at point Y, where f42 xx clone should be safe, etc. Why do you insist so strongly on living there? Why not take the game as it is and try to work with the tools you have? Maybe the strength of clone hasn't been fully fleshed out yet? The game is like 2 months old, let it marinate a bit. Personally I'd rather have minimal buffs and nerfs this early on in the game's life.

Sometimes I feel like there's as much brainpower spent looking for buffs as for different ways to use existing tools That's too bad, cause I know there's player talent there!

I spend all my time looking for new traps and setups with the clone and almost non of it thinking about this. In truth, i focus on what the clone can do and not what it cant.

Im an expert in using the clone and how to heavily punish people who try to get around it to the point that most do not try to poke through it against me.

The clones collision is actually fine and I plan on publishing my findings soon and ending this debate. Wanting a clone buff will only result in a small buff but we'dd probably have to lose the throw into the clone and that's something that SZ cannot afford to lose, so i'd rather the clone stay as is.

The only things that should be fixed are big issues like Raiden's electric fly punishing clone for no meter from anywhere on screen and bug issues where SZ cannot cancel to an ex clone on block off certain normals vs certain characters.

TBH, things like Raiden F1, Erron Black's jabs, etc having a big attack box but small hitbox is more of a concerning issue for the game in general more than a SZ issue. I mean, do we really want a Raiden F1 or Erron Black's punches to act like Aquaman's trident or Kung Jin's bow because it has an attack box that is way in front of its hitbox?

 

[ZeZe]

Could someone check (on any character) if Sub can cancel his F4,2 into MB Klone in the corner on not blocking opponent. I tried on Jax, Mileena, Kitana, Reptile and Kano and it just doesn't work for me. It works midscreen and it works in the corner when they are blocking, but when they are off block it will not come out. I just would like to know if it's PC specific issue, or I'm going crazy.

 

[RVB]

To be fair to everyone, the major argument concerning this situation has always been like this:
People who say thay want the klone fixed when they actually mean that NRS should take a look at this and see what needs to be done AND people who think more in depth searching into the matter needs to be done, before any measure is taken if any.
THERE IS NO REASON why both parties cannot simply agree that the proper course of action would be that NRS should start investigating the matter thoroughly and IF this warrants changes then APPLY them to the game.
We have literally been arguing for nothing and the worst thing is you cannot show this thread to anyone in position to do the things we want without them being put of by the constant bickering.
We need to start making concessions to each other if and when more of these things happen, we will only grow as a community and show that we have what it takes to present valid information without it being hidden by mountains of pointless posts.

 

[VengeanceIsMine]

I spend all my time looking for new traps and setups with the clone and almost non of it thinking about this. In truth, i focus on what the clone can do and not what it cant.

Im an expert in using the clone and how to heavily punish people who try to get around it to the point that most do not try to poke through it against me.

The clones collision is actually fine and I plan on publishing my findings soon and ending this debate. Wanting a clone buff will only result in a small buff but we'dd probably have to lose the throw into the clone and that's something that SZ cannot afford to lose, so i'd rather the clone stay as is.

The only things that should be fixed are big issues like Raiden's electric fly punishing clone for no meter from anywhere on screen and bug issues where SZ cannot cancel to an ex clone on block off certain normals vs certain characters.

TBH, things like Raiden F1, Erron Black's jabs, etc having a big attack box but small hitbox is more of a concerning issue for the game in general more than a SZ issue. I mean, do we really want a Raiden F1 or Erron Black's punches to act like Aquaman's trident or Kung Jin's bow because it has an attack box that is way in front of its hitbox?

i still think the hitbox on the freeze should be adjusted to the very front of the clone. its not right in its current state and thats is what the clone is supposed to do. u touch it you freeze plain and simple. i should not be behind the clone and have my opponent stick their arm or leg half way thru it without freezing. that needs to change. im looking at you @colt please fix.

 

[Tom Brady]

clone actually works right, there are bigger issues.

@Tim Static lock please

 

[Tim Static]

clone actually works right, there are bigger issues.

@Tim Static lock please

Closed.