Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Ice Clone does not function right part 2

[Zebster]

@Zebster : How can you say it's not the same set-up? Sub doesn't move when he's done setting clone up and Raiden always starts his fly from where he was left by Sub. Yet you can see at 0:17 and 0:27 that Raiden gets frozen. Following your logic he shouldn't have because Sub was not blocking.

Wow, now I remember why I stopped coming here years ago. Some of you are so stubborn it's ridiculous.
Whether or not he blocked is NOT the issue. It all comes back to hitboxes vs hurtboxes, or did you not read everything I posted?

Because Sub was blocking in my video, he shrunk his hurtbox, thus allowing Raiden to travel a little farther than if he had not blocked. Because he traveled farther, his hurtbox was able to make contact with the clone and freeze him.

In the first video in the OP though, a different situation occurred. Each time he got frozen Raiden was TOO close to the clone, so the active hitbox of the Superman didn't even come out yet.

 

[RVB]

I'm not them but I'll still say that it's working as intended.


Not the same set up, each time he got frozen he was closer to the clone than when he went through it.

You should know that Superman's hitbox is deceptively large. The active hitbox is big not only vertically, but horizontally as well. This is another situation where the hitbox extends slightly further than the hurtbox.

And yes, I have gone into training mode and tried two different set ups (one where Sub stands still, and one where he blocks) using the training mode options to actually get a consistent set up, and guess what? The results are always the same.

As you can see in the video, Raiden always blows through the clone in the first set up (Sub's hurtbox includes his hand, you see), and Raiden always gets frozen in the second setup (because blocking makes Sub's hurtbox slightly smaller, which gives the move's hurtbox enough space to reach the clone's hitbox).

This is all nice and dandy but what IF you do superman on reaction to the klone, huh? Sub Zero is caught in recovery and CAN'T BLOCK, that is what happens in the second video in the OP.
Why do people think this is not a glitch is beyond me, when it is clear as daylight that Raiden's non enhanced superman should never go through the klone in that situation REGARDLESS IF YOU BLOCK OR NOT, hell in the first video there's an instance where Raiden DOES get frozen while sub isn't blocking.
Lol if that is not an inconsistent result then I do not know what is.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

If you want the discussion moved here because you feel the other thread got derailed, then I'm closing the other one. There's no need to have two threads open discussing the same topic.

 

[aieches]

my vote is for it needs fix or adjustment ( if its supposedly not broken) period.

 

[deg222]

You get the same situation if you use Tanya's b2 in Naginata. And I don't mean spacing the b2, I mean really using it close to where her arm is touching the clone but still pokes through it, it's pretty messed up.

 

[VengeanceIsMine]

@colt please look at all the videos Tom has posted. There is no way this was intended. Characters need to get frozen when they touch the Iceclone not travel thru it and be able to hit sub zero who is standing safe behind. The hit box needs to be adjusted.

 

[buyacushun]

So we just gonna ignore my video showing that clone IS working as intended. It's just the info it uses to "work" (the odd hitboxes and hurtboxes of moves) are deceptive. This causes the visual oddities of things going through when it LOOKS like it shouldn't. I'm not saying nothing should be changed as it is early. But you cant demand a change because raiden can punish on reaction. Dont do I at neutral. Raiden can't just superman if your careful. Clone can still be used as a wonderful trapping tool. Just dont sit RIGHT BEHIND IT. Like take a step back and you effectively have that defense wall again. Mind you this advice is for raiden and anyone else you think just destroys clone.

EDIT: thank you @Zebster for posting the same fighting game logic that I and a few others have posted. Its like some people here have only played MK9 and on and never seen weird hitbox hurtbox interaction. Heck it's the basis for how crossups work yet we aint nerfing those into ground everywhere.

 

[GAV]

This is clearly broken. Addressing this wouldn't be buffing SZ, but simply fixing a broken aspect of the game.

Trolling is fun, but lets not let it cloud our vision.

 

[RexyWrecks]

Lmao, as much as I hate sub in MKX.. this needs to be fixed.

 

[cambros22]

So we just gonna ignore my video showing that clone IS working as intended. It's just the info it uses to "work" (the odd hitboxes and hurtboxes of moves) are deceptive. This causes the visual oddities of things going through when it LOOKS like it shouldn't. I'm not saying nothing should be changed as it is early. But you cant demand a change because raiden can punish on reaction. Dont do I at neutral. Raiden can't just superman if your careful. Clone can still be used as a wonderful trapping tool. Just dont sit RIGHT BEHIND IT. Like take a step back and you effectively have that defense wall again. Mind you this advice is for raiden and anyone else you think just destroys clone.

If what your saying is the case with ice clone. We might as well just make it a thin strip on the screen. That way no one is being deceived. Oh but wait, people still would punch through it. The shit is broken. Punishing someone with a glitch isn't a punish. Its a glitch that is causing the player to be punished when it shouldn't. With that mentality, why should we even patch games in the first place.

 

[Alright RyRy]

So because sub zero has his hand in the ice clone this happens?

 

[WakeUp DP]

People just hate Subz. They can't stand having to play patiently and just want to run in and press buttons mindlessly.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Fix the Klone.
Round off the other variations.
Look at the next unfinished character.

 

[Rickyraws]

People hate their parents because they put limits on them and don't allow them to do anything they want.


People hate police because they put limits on them and don't allow them to do anything they want.


People hate Sub Zero because he puts limits on them and doesn't allow them to do anything they want.

 

[buyacushun]

If what your saying is the case with ice clone. We might as well just make it a thin strip on the screen. That way no one is being deceived. Oh but wait, people still would punch through it. The shit is broken. Punishing someone with a glitch isn't a punish. Its a glitch that is causing the player to be punished when it shouldn't. With that mentality, why should we even patch games in the first place.

Because it's not a glitch. NRS made the hitboxes and hurtboxes they way they are. It's a direct result of the inputs they used to get the output of clone. If sub zero can never make enough space in a situation where attacks would get frozen then yeah i'd have a problem. Just don't do clone in neutral against Raiden. Use your normals and fight him to the corner. You cant be directly behind the clone. It still works just fine if you take a step back. Now if NRS wants to adjust any hitboxes or hurtboxes whether in direct correlation to this "issue" or not doesn't mean those boxes were glitches. That would just be a mistake being corrected. This is the only place i've read people are astonished at a hitbox/hurtbox reaction. I've seen Fireballs in SF completely whiff characters right in front of them. Everyone goes "that's the hitbox stuff we've known about since forever." Then just play because it doesn't destroy anything.

NOTE: I do want to conduct a test to see if Raiden can superman out of the corner with clone in place after something is blocked as a punish. That may or may not be an actual problem. But then again that's just one step closer to ending reliance on 50/50 guesses . . . in one matchup.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

People hate their parents because they put limits on them and don't allow them to do anything they want.


People hate police because they put limits on them and don't allow them to do anything they want.


People hate Sub Zero because he puts limits on them and doesn't allow them to do anything they want.

This x100.

This needs to be fixed. Point blank.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

I can only imagine how much Colt hates us Sub Zero players lol

 

[WakeUp DP]

Fix the Klone.
Round off the other variations.
Look at the next unfinished character.

Exactly, why is Ice hammer 40frames of start up? lol

 

[cambros22]

Because it's not a glitch. NRS made the hitboxes and hurtboxes they way they are. It's a direct result of the inputs they used to get the output of clone. If sub zero can never make enough space in a situation where attacks would get frozen then yeah i'd have a problem. Just don't do clone in neutral against Raiden. Use your normals and fight him to the corner. You cant be directly behind the clone. It still works just fine if you take a step back. Now if NRS wants to adjust any hitboxes or hurtboxes whether in direct correlation to this "issue" or not doesn't mean those boxes were glitches. That would just be a mistake being corrected. This is the only place i've read people are astonished at a hitbox/hurtbox reaction. I've seen Fireballs in SF completely whiff characters right in front of them. Everyone goes "that's the hitbox stuff we've known about since forever." Then just play because it doesn't destroy anything.

NOTE: I do want to conduct a test to see if Raiden can superman out of the corner with clone in place after something is blocked as a punish. That may or may not be an actual problem. But then again that's just one step closer to ending reliance on 50/50 guesses . . . in one matchup.

There is no point in arguing this. We don't know why its the way it is. and comparing it to other situations where hurtboxs are weird doesn't count because this isn't a whiffing thing or phantom range issue, its a priority issue. Touching subzero makes ice clone disappear. That takes priority over getting frozen. Since subzero's hurtbox can overlap with the hitbox of the clone, that's why punches, kicks and special moves are taking priority in this situation. This will either be address as and unintended issues or be left alone. All we can hope for is an explanation explaining either or decision so that this discussion can end definitively.

 

[aieches]

L

Because it's not a glitch. NRS made the hitboxes and hurtboxes they way they are. It's a direct result of the inputs they used to get the output of clone. If sub zero can never make enough space in a situation where attacks would get frozen then yeah i'd have a problem. Just don't do clone in neutral against Raiden. Use your normals and fight him to the corner. You cant be directly behind the clone. It still works just fine if you take a step back. Now if NRS wants to adjust any hitboxes or hurtboxes whether in direct correlation to this "issue" or not doesn't mean those boxes were glitches. That would just be a mistake being corrected. This is the only place i've read people are astonished at a hitbox/hurtbox reaction. I've seen Fireballs in SF completely whiff characters right in front of them. Everyone goes "that's the hitbox stuff we've known about since forever." Then just play because it doesn't destroy anything.

NOTE: I do want to conduct a test to see if Raiden can superman out of the corner with clone in place after something is blocked as a punish. That may or may not be an actual problem. But then again that's just one step closer to ending reliance on 50/50 guesses . . . in one matchup.

For the record.. I have Always heard hitbox/hurtbox complaints from all communities. Sf, mk, ki, etc. Plus this is not street fighter. This is a game based on variations and this variation is dependent on clone. Clone should be scary and or make you think about what you should do next. Whether the hurtbox /hitbox data is as nrs planned or not, the point is that this being able to happen hurts subzeros main meta /plan in this variation.

 

[ShotgunInsanity]

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/6f57bb84-e673-4ff9-9c05-6f012cf2092c?gamerTag=Shotgunlnsanity&scid=03a80100-9ff3-46ea-be76-e00e7fe465df
His entire hand is going through the ice klone, how is this not broken?

 

[aieches]

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/6f57bb84-e673-4ff9-9c05-6f012cf2092c?gamerTag=Shotgunlnsanity&scid=03a80100-9ff3-46ea-be76-e00e7fe465df
His entire hand is going through the ice klone, how is this not broken?

/thread

Fix.

 

[ZeZe]

As it stands there are two discussions going on here, this is why this thread is messed up:

1. There is discussion about what (technically) causes ice klone to behave that way.

2. And there is discussion about whether it's ok or not that klone behaves that way. And this is the one I'm interested in.

Game mechanics, as I understand, makes it dependable on Raiden's proximity to the clone if he'll get frozen or not. But I'm not able to predict if he will jump during Sub's F4,d2~ice klone (then Raiden will be close enough to get frozen during fly), or not (then Raiden will be able to go through klone). If this is due to mechanics, it has to be modified, unless you'll support Sub mains with digital ruler so that they can measure with their keen senses Ice klone's proximity from opponent.

 

[cambros22]

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/6f57bb84-e673-4ff9-9c05-6f012cf2092c?gamerTag=Shotgunlnsanity&scid=03a80100-9ff3-46ea-be76-e00e7fe465df
His entire hand is going through the ice klone, how is this not broken?

Nothing left to argue my friend If people can't see that, they are blind

 

[buyacushun]

There is no point in arguing this. We don't know why its the way it is. and comparing it to other situations where hurtboxs are weird doesn't count because this isn't a whiffing thing or phantom range issue, its a priority issue. Touching subzero makes ice clone disappear. That takes priority over getting frozen. Since subzero's hurtbox can overlap with the hitbox of the clone, that's why punches, kicks and special moves are taking priority in this situation. This will either be address as and unintended issues or be left alone. All we can hope for is an explanation explaining either or decision so that this discussion can end definitively.

This is exactly a hitbox / hurtbox thing AND a priority thing. They priority comes into place because Raiden's hitbox extends farther than his hurtbox. Unless anyone else has a different explanation this is what's happening.

For the record.. I have Always heard hitbox/hurtbox complaints from all communities. Sf, mk, ki, etc. Plus this is not street fighter. This is a game based on variations and this variation is dependent on clone. Clone should be scary and or make you think about what you should do next. Whether the hurtbox /hitbox data is as nrs planned or not, the point is that this being able to happen hurts subzeros main meta /plan in this variation.

I didn't mean that no one else complains about hitbox / hurtbox stuff. I tried playing Deejay . . . .lol. Just that when it's a little thing as not being able to do a move in neutral against one character, I don't think i've seen it become a community thing. Unless it completely destroys a matchup like hugo VS Juri and Gouken.

Like i said if Raiden can blow it up in the corner as a punish for blocking something with clone out then that might be a problem. But once again this is leading to less reliance on 50/50 pressure in ONE matchup. This thread is literally for one move in one matchup at a specific distance. Like really?

Also, i'm not against changing Raiden's stuff or Sub Zero's but it is still early right? Wasn't that one of the major complaints the Sub Zero community had against the cooldown and block nerf? The ones that you guys almost instantly found a way around. This thing doesn't seem to affect anything but neutral against one character. Sub Zero will live.