Guide "I Love My Job" -- Deathstroke General Discussion Thread

[Crathen]

It's B1U2 , F2 , D2 , JI2 , 23 x Flip right? Or B1U2 , F3 , 1 , 23 x Flip? Both get punished by Flying Uppercut. Post the combo again please?

B1u2 f3 d2 j2 23xxSF or B1u2 f3 1 23xxSF , if you're getting punished you're doing something wrong , it's about the height you hit 23xxSF and if you trait right after DS recovers from SF.

I'm uploading a video right now , should be up in 15 minutes

 

[SaJa]

Aris is back : http://www.twitch.tv/avoidingthepuddle/b/466923382

 

[RoGE]

DS players should abuse Ji3 more imo, especially when they are right next to you, it's almost an instant cross up lol. The sooner you hit them with a cross up Ji3 the better, Sword flip right after it and your opponent will get knocked down right behind you instead. You can attempt to go for a F3 cross up right after it.

 

[RoboCop]

Well after experimenting with nearly every single character, I can say with almost certainty that I'm sticking with DS. No other character clicked with me. I always ended up missing his perfect blend of j3, frame traps, mix-ups, awesome f3, and stage control. I'll just have to work on the Nightwing and Ares MU's (or really any teleporting character).

 

[Crathen]

Well after experimenting with nearly every single character, I can say with almost certainty that I'm sticking with DS. No other character clicked with me. I always ended up missing his perfect blend of j3, frame traps, mix-ups, awesome f3, and stage control. I'll just have to work on the Nightwing and Ares MU's (or really any teleporting character).

Yeah you could say Deathstroke is a real jack of all trades character , he's complete all around.

Zoning decent.
Great antizoning.
Great frametraps.
Very fast space control tool.
Good whiff punishment.
Great overhead / low mixups.
Solid punishment options.
Good air control.
Great air normals.
Great jump arc.
Good anti air.

He may seem easy to use but at high levels he needs to use almost all his tools in real game , he's has to think switching zoning / anti zoning and rushdown , he doesn't really have a dominant tool to just throw out.

Knowing when to end combos in setups and be aggressive or when to go for damage and zone them out ( DS players i've watched so far look June 2013 ) , using trait when it's wise , how to approach wakeups , midscreen crossups setups.

I like this character because you have to be a solid player to make him work ( like Sektor in MK9 but with no Kabal / Kenshi / Sonya ) , DS hasn't been much popular since the nerfs and everyone forgot about him at least in the "most watched" streams , he lacks representation.

DS players just don't put much work on him.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Are his 50/50s really that good though? I mean I think they're ok but it seems we're overhyping them up a bit.

Let's take a quick look:

B1U2 - Easily his best option in all his 50/50s it's moderately fast at 15f, safe, leads to every option he has, meterless

F3 - His second best option, gives every option he has, gives another 50/50 attempt on block, can be armored.
BUT: it has somewhat of a slow start-up, enough that you can't really just throw it out there unless armored. And even then, it'll just be blocked. And it whiffs a lot.

B22 x Sword Spin - Safe , fast , hit-confirmable overhead that leads to a Hard knockdown. Very limited range, Low damage(24%), somewhat hard to execute(at max range, you can't do the Sword Flip) and uses meter for low damage

B23F2 - Fast, safer than Sword Spin(-3), puts opponent at full-screen. Damage is absolute ass(16%), can be tech-rolled

D1 x Sword Spin - 7f low that leads to a hard knockdown. Shares the same problems as B22 x Sword Spin with even lower damage


All this being said, when going for 50/50s the opponent will most likely always block low knowing F3 is fuzzy-guardable and the other overhead options aren't as scary. So DS would have to resort to doing gimmicks like B1/D1 x FFMB or B22 x FFMB to open them up a bit. Thoughts?

 

[Crathen]

Are his 50/50s really that good though? I mean I think they're ok but it seems we're overhyping them up a bit.

Let's take a quick look:

B1U2 - Easily his best option in all his 50/50s it's moderately fast at 15f, safe, leads to every option he has, meterless

F3 - His second best option, gives every option he has, gives another 50/50 attempt on block, can be armored.
BUT: it has somewhat of a slow start-up, enough that you can't really just throw it out there unless armored. And even then, it'll just be blocked. And it whiffs a lot.

B22 x Sword Spin - Safe , fast , hit-confirmable overhead that leads to a Hard knockdown. Very limited range, Low damage(24%), somewhat hard to execute(at max range, you can't do the Sword Flip) and uses meter for low damage

B23F2 - Fast, safer than Sword Spin(-3), puts opponent at full-screen. Damage is absolute ass(16%), can be tech-rolled

D1 x Sword Spin - 7f low that leads to a hard knockdown. Shares the same problems as B22 x Sword Spin with even lower damage


All this being said, when going for 50/50s the opponent will most likely always block low knowing F3 is fuzzy-guardable and the other overhead options aren't as scary. So DS would have to resort to doing gimmicks like B1/D1 x FFMB or B22 x FFMB to open them up a bit. Thoughts?

His 50/50 are safe on block and always create that sweetspot distance where you can AA a bad jumpin or react to a dash in or simply walk / jump / backdash , it's very frustrating for the opponent to block a 50/50 and being unable to punish or get easy pressure.

In the corner it's even better as d1/b2 xx SS become full combos into a plethora of setups.

F3 you have to look at it in a different perspective , being a 26 frames overhead means it's blockable if they're waiting for it wich means they either stand still in anticipation ( wich gives Deathstroke time as the opponent will hesitate when they get in f3 range ) or push buttons to beat it out ( wich again leads to MB F3 or just baiting and punishing ) , it's a great footsie tool but not as a traditional whiff punishing / pressure normal.

You also have to take into consideration that if you hit a b1u2 or f3 even midscreen DS can get crossup f3 setups , safejumps , screwing wakeups and lotsa other shit.

Don't forget that whenever you're near a background bounce interactable you have access to b2xxBGB wich leads into 39+ % combos.

After any SF ender you also get free chip with LGS ( i'd have to check if i can force stand block quickfire , that'd be better ) since most characters don't have a real wakeup threat at that range.

You can't play DS as a straight up zoner or mixup character , what you should be focusing on is space control , make the opponent do bad choices and punish them for it when they hesitate mix them up or run away some more.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

His 50/50 are safe on block and always create that sweetspot distance where you can AA a bad jumpin or react to a dash in or simply walk / jump / backdash , it's very frustrating for the opponent to block a 50/50 and being unable to punish or get easy pressure.

In the corner it's even better as d1/b2 xx SS become full combos into a plethora of setups.

F3 you have to look at it in a different perspective , being a 26 frames overhead means it's blockable if they're waiting for it wich means they either stand still in anticipation ( wich gives Deathstroke time as the opponent will hesitate when they get in f3 range ) or push buttons to beat it out ( wich again leads to MB F3 or just baiting and punishing ) , it's a great footsie tool but not as a traditional whiff punishing / pressure normal.

You also have to take into consideration that if you hit a b1u2 or f3 even midscreen DS can get crossup f3 setups , safejumps , screwing wakeups and lotsa other shit.

Don't forget that whenever you're near a background bounce interactable you have access to b2xxBGB wich leads into 39+ % combos.

After any SF ender you also get free chip with LGS ( i'd have to check if i can force stand block quickfire , that'd be better ) since most characters don't have a real wakeup threat at that range.

You can't play DS as a straight up zoner or mixup character , what you should be focusing on is space control , make the opponent do bad choices and punish them for it when they hesitate mix them up or run away some more.

I'm aware of all that. As I've mentioned. But compare it to some other characters just as Frost or Catwoman where in that match-up you're both doing the same things except they outdamage you.

And of course you could always do throw mix-ups to keep them honest but it doesn't always work offline when you're against players who are able to tech 80% of the time.

EDIT: Not to mention, B2/D1 x BGB Cancel will be punished when blocked, it's not something you really want to risk.

Also, I was working on a DS Punishment guide and started and finished Flash. But since I couldn't decide whether to do all characters or not I decided to drop it.

 

[Crathen]

I'm aware of all that. As I've mentioned. But compare it to some other characters just as Frost or Catwoman where in that match-up you're both doing the same things except they outdamage you.

And of course you could always do throw mix-ups to keep them honest but it doesn't always work offline when you're against players who are able to tech 80% of the time.

KF and CW have better reward but they don't have the same air control / zoning as DS , they're played a lot differently than DS so i don't see the connection other than they get more damage on their 50/50 , in the respective matchups both KF / CW don't get in for free and they'll eat damage trying to anyways and that's before getting into 50/50 land.

You gotta take into account the character as a whole not just how much damage the 50/50 gives you when playing the matchups.

If your point is DS 50/50's are not as damaging as theirs i can only agree.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

KF and CW have better reward but they don't have the same air control / zoning as DS , they're played a lot differently than DS so i don't see the connection other than they get more damage on their 50/50 , in the respective matchups both KF / CW don't get in for free and they'll eat damage trying to anyways and that's before getting into 50/50 land.

You gotta take into account the character as a whole not just how much damage the 50/50 gives you when playing the matchups.

If your point is DS 50/50's are not as damaging as theirs i can only agree.

Ok then what about Flash and Batgirl. They get in for free as you cower in fear because of their space control. While still outdamaging you in the 50/50 area not to mention they're always + on their 50/50 strings.

 

[Crathen]

Ok then what about Flash and Batgirl. They get in for free as you cower in fear because of their space control. While still outdamaging you in the 50/50 area not to mention they're always + on their 50/50 strings.

They get past gunshots easier because they have a tool to mess them up , Flash Lc punishing LGS doesn't mean he gets in for free , he still has to respect Jb3 and knowing the distance of his dash to punish it works wonders in this MU , MB LGS is a safer tool to check him from dashing when he's 3/4 or midscreen distance.

His frametraps are not as good as Deathstrokes ( outside of MB Sonic Pound ) so i'll be happy to just jump out after b22 / MB LC / d12 and take minimum damage ( and if he's whiffing a b22 / f21 he's eating a jb3 into SF ) , backdash still works vs d12 too , it's gonna be frustrating Flash to no end and eventually he has to make a read to stop you jumping out.

Batgirl has teleport to check DS but it's mostly done on a read so the risk reward is kinda even , she'll use that psychological advantage to dash in and try to get her 50/50 started and her jumping normals have good active frames to they're hard to beat but her j2 /j1 are very little advantage on block and you can backdash out of shit like j2 b12 and full combo punish her , her j3 give her big FA but it's way easier to AA or A2A than j2.

PS: b2xxBGB is punishable yes , but then again if it's gonna hit it's very good damage from a 13 frame OH. And still i see very few BGB getting punished even and good levels of play since they're -9 with very little blockstun.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

They get past gunshots easier because they have a tool to mess them up , Flash Lc punishing LGS doesn't mean he gets in for free , he still has to respect Jb3 and knowing the distance of his dash to punish it works wonders in this MU , MB LGS is a safer tool to check him from dashing when he's 3/4 or midscreen distance.

His frametraps are not as good as Deathstrokes ( outside of MB Sonic Pound ) so i'll be happy to just jump out after b22 / MB LC / d12 and take minimum damage ( and if he's whiffing a b22 / f21 he's eating a jb3 into SF ) , backdash still works vs d12 too , it's gonna be frustrating Flash to no end and eventually he has to make a read to stop you jumping out.

Batgirl has teleport to check DS but it's mostly done on a read so the risk reward is kinda even , she'll use that psychological advantage to dash in and try to get her 50/50 started and her jumping normals have good active frames to they're hard to beat but her j2 /j1 are very little advantage on block and you can backdash out of shit like j2 b12 and full combo punish her , her j3 give her big FA but it's way easier to AA or A2A than j2.

PS: b2xxBGB is punishable yes , but then again if it's gonna hit it's very good damage from a 13 frame OH. And still i see very few BGB getting punished even and good levels of play since they're -9 with very little blockstun.

B2 x BGB can be punished ducking. But I know it has to be read.

As for the Batgirl stuff, the meta doesn't end at Tele, she also has Bolas that are +infinity on block and can use that to outright outzone DS.

And as for the Flash MU, Flash doesn't always have to LC to answer GS, he has a ridiculous forward dash that put him at ranges where DS can't do anything but make reads or wait for a punish oppurtunity.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Yo I'm sure this isn't new tech but I'm just wondering what do you guys do after a XJ3 into Sword Flip that puts you right on top of their body?

I go for ambiguous J3 into Sword Flip to continue the loop. I haven't seen a way out of this yet other than guessing right. Thoughts?

 

[Mikman360]

Yo I'm sure this isn't new tech but I'm just wondering what do you guys do after a XJ3 into Sword Flip that puts you right on top of their body?

I go for ambiguous J3 into Sword Flip to continue the loop. I haven't seen a way out of this yet other than guessing right. Thoughts?

I figured this out a while ago. I call it the "standover" since it puts you like right on top of the opponent. I was gonna make a write up about it sometime, but I got kinda distracted by a busy life. I almost always do a neutral jump 2, since it gives a free mixup. I more often go for B1U2 right after it.

You can do some things with F3 too, but I can't seem to get it constantly.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I figured this out a while ago. I call it the "standover" since it puts you like right on top of the opponent. I was gonna make a write up about it sometime, but I got kinda distracted by a busy life. I almost always do a neutral jump 2, since it gives a free mixup. I more often go for B1U2 right after it.

You can do some things with F3 too, but I can't seem to get it constantly.

Ok serious question: How come my J1/2/3 follow-ups always get D1'd? Is this an online glitch? because it doesn't happen offline. And sometimes,(what really rustles my jimmies) my J1/2 ON HIT! follow-ups get blocked. This is very frustrating when I punish KF's slide and can't combo. Same deal when I guess right on the Ninja Vortex.

 

[Mikman360]

Ok serious question: How come my J1/2/3 follow-ups always get D1'd? Is this an online glitch? because it doesn't happen offline. And sometimes,(what really rustles my jimmies) my J1/2 ON HIT! follow-ups get blocked. This is very frustrating when I punish KF's slide and can't combo. Same deal when I guess right on the Ninja Vortex.

Are you cancelling the jump attack into the ground attack right when the jump attack hits? I really dont see how being beat to the punch on-hit is even possible. It's only happened to me when I hit with Ji3 really high in the air and take a long time to follow up.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Are you cancelling the jump attack into the ground attack right when the jump attack hits? I really dont see how being beat to the punch on-hit is even possible. It's only happened to me when I hit with Ji3 really high in the air and take a long time to follow up.

Yea, everything is fine. It only happens online to me.

 

[Mikman360]

Yea, everything is fine. It only happens online to me.

Dunno what to tell ya then. Sorry :\

 

[G4S Silent Jay]

On block pretty much anything after ji1 gets blown up by D1 on block.

In fact, against Shazam, if you TRY to get a ji1, 132 and it's blocked you'll eat 35%+... Just one example from a character that the forums keep saying can do nothing about DS in any aspect.

 

[Mikman360]

Oh, well in the scenario you do get blocked, then yes, 1 hits high, so it is possible to get hit by a crouching attack between your jump in attack and the 3 in 132. If the opponent blocks high, then immediately ducks, then this is a possibility.

If you get blocked, just go for B1 or B2 for the mixup. 132 is what you use when your jump attack hits since it provides the most damage (hit confirm).

But I should mention right now that not even the slowest of DS' normals (15 frames B1) can be hit by a D1 if you time your jump attacks correctly. I still have that one thread floating around about jump in attack blockstun. The verdict was Ji2 > Ji3 > Ji1, but ALL were at least +9 (optimally). HOWEVER, your blockstun advantage is diminished the higher you are when you attack during the jump.

Ji1 and Ji3 have to be done VERY low to the ground in order to make all ground normals safe. Ji2 you can do practically whenever.

 

[RYX]

Batgirl is so overrated yo

All we need to worry about is that POS Flash. ;_;

 

[Mikman360]

Here it is: http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/some-jump-attack-blockstun-information.37063/

And RYX, idk about that... some days I think BG is worse, some days I think it's Flash. You can still shoot Flash, LC isn't fullproof in a practical sense. That teleport on MB however is a free ticket to vortex city. Then again, DS' guns aren't very reactable (11 frames), so we've actually got it easier than say Cyborg or Sinestro. Flash hurts way more than Babs too.

I just dont know. They both suck so much.

 

[RYX]

Here it is: http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/some-jump-attack-blockstun-information.37063/

And RYX, idk about that... some days I think BG is worse, some days I think it's Flash. You can still shoot Flash, LC isn't fullproof in a practical sense. That teleport on MB however is a free ticket to vortex city. Then again, DS' guns aren't very reactable (11 frames), so we've actually got it easier than say Cyborg or Sinestro. Flash hurts way more than Babs too.

I just dont know. They both suck so much.

Nah we just need a normal that stuffs all her wake ups like Bane does and we'll be fine.

BG has to risk teleports, we can shoot her out of Bola, and we can LG under rangs. Now if we can find a way to stuff her wake ups, preferably with a combo, we'll be smooth sailing

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

What would be the point in the cross-up if you plan on hitting it deep? It'd be reacted to. And it still doesn't solve my problem on why on HIT, a follow-up gets blocked.

Fuck online lol. This is why I should stop trying to take this game seriously.

 

[Mikman360]

What would be the point in the cross-up if you plan on hitting it deep? It'd be reacted to. And it still doesn't solve my problem on why on HIT, a follow-up gets blocked.

Fuck online lol. This is why I should stop trying to take this game seriously.

Because if you're hitting it deep, your goal is not to confuse them with the jump in, but the follow up B1 or B2.

Most of DS' worthwhile normals hit overhead/mid/low anyways (B2/B1/3). Just go for B1U2 more. A normal B1U2 combo does 1% less than a 132 combo. Use Ji1, 1 for things you KNOW you will hit (like a whiffed slide from KF or Batman).

Nah we just need a normal that stuffs all her wake ups like Bane does and we'll be fine.

BG has to risk teleports, we can shoot her out of Bola, and we can LG under rangs. Now if we can find a way to stuff her wake ups, preferably with a combo, we'll be smooth sailing

I still don't think its smooth sailing then. We are out of our comfort zone here. We have to pay SUCH close attention to what she does full screen. We cant afford to block her projectiles, so we have to pick our reactionary gun with spot on reads.

Low shots beat Batarang
Quick Fire beats Bolo
Block beats Smoke Bomb

Smoke Bomb beats QF AND LS
Bolo beats LS AND blocking (the damn thing is positive on block -_-)
Batarang doesn't really do much other than annoy you

However, ALL of these are unfavorable trades IF WE SCREW UP. If Babs screws up, she eats 6 percent (33% if its the teleport). These trades here are not favorable. If WE screw up, enter vortex city. The bolo and teleport lead to the vortex, and her stupid quick close range game. It's like a game of rock-paper-scissors here, except the person you're playing with says "If you win, you can pinch me, but if I win, I kick you in the nuts."