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Match-up Discussion Harley Quinn Matchup Discussion

serge

Mortal
what sick corner game does she have?
What works for me:
d1 ts1 - rest of combo, usuallly f13 f13 112 11pd mb
b22 ts1 - combo
nj2 b22 ts1 - bombo
mix in some f2 instead of b22
ts1 - combo (sometimes they dont expect a TS right away)

when harley is cornered she has 123 or nj2 123 to put them back in the corner themselves and you can follow with f13 f13 112 11pd mb.
 

CTZero

Versatile Strategist
Harley doesn't have a flowchart mentality like some of the other cast members in the game. Superman, Aquaman, and Killer Frost come to mind when I think of this. Harley being at full screen is not a situation in her favor. Outside of sweep range is her best range, but when it comes to match-ups such as Superman, Raven, and DS for example, it seems as if Harley has to play "out of character" in most situations. With that being said, I believe she is definitely a good character. However, the current "top" characters in the game do not have much of a learning curve when playing those characters for the first time.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
Harley doesn't have a flowchart mentality like some of the other cast members in the game. Superman, Aquaman, and Killer Frost come to mind when I think of this. Harley being at full screen is not a situation in her favor. Outside of sweep range is her best range, but when it comes to match-ups such as Superman, Raven, and DS for example, it seems as if Harley has to play "out of character" in most situations. With that being said, I believe she is definitely a good character. However, the current "top" characters in the game do not have much of a learning curve when playing those characters for the first time.
In most fighting game tier list you usually see upward of 4-5 ranks.. "S" usually consisting of 1, possibly 2 characters.. Injustice at its current iteration is a rarity.. It's literally.. "S" tier followed by "the rest" tier.. With many characters being "capable" in the right hands.. I'm not sure how this is going to effect future tier listings.. But each character being viable is a breath of fresh air..

I also love the fact that you pick up on the flow chart as opposed to the non- flow chart style.. This is VERY true and VERY applicable.. People need to understand and apply this. Sometimes playing cross stage works to her favor- Green Lantern and Raven come to mind.. Whereas close proximity deals with other characters better- DS and Cyborg come to mind.. Harley can still fight outside the comfort zone on these 4 MU's, but in already uphill battles.. You need ease as much as possible :)
Also.. Just outside sweep is her sweet spot.. It is also the most dangerous to be just hanging around and where people seem to shell up or lose composure... Important to know how to get Harley there and keep her there.. And what it comes down to is a very basic and simple fix.. Which is basic defensive knowledge :)
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
Following is Harley's sweet spot while fighting the cast.. This is generic, and my opinion through experience and research., if you need anything explained further- ask and I will.

Aquaman: outside sweep
Ares: outside sweep
Bane: outside sweep
Batgirl: outside sweep
Batman: full screen
Black Adam: outside sweep
Catwoman: full screen
Cyborg: as close as possible
Deathstroke: as close as possible
Doomsday: outside sweep
Flash: full screen
Green Arrow: full screen
Green Lantern: full screen
Harley Quinn: outside sweep/full screen
Hawkgirl: full screen
Joker: outside sweep
Killer Frost: outside sweep
Lex Luthor: outside sweep
Lobo: full screen
Nightwing: outside sweep
Raven: full screen
Shazam: full screen
Sinestro: as close as possible
Solomon Grundy: full screen
Superman: outside sweep
Wonder Woman: full screen

This is not saying.. FIGHT THESE CHARACTERS HERE or lose!!! This is where you need to cash in on damage and where you should feel comfortable fighting these foes..

Note: Full screen does not mean the match is a loss if you get close- full screen means- they have trouble countering or getting in close, so while you HAVE distance on them- work on keeping them out and make the health bar pay for trying to get in.

Note: outside sweep does not mean RUSH ME DOWN.. It does however mean that being just outside sweep takes away some lethality from your foe and ups Harley's potential for better damage.
 
you can't really be full screen against grundy, he actually outzones you there (he gives no fucks about your horizontal gunshot)
you need to be in air shot range

green lantern should just be "bend over", you are not safe from him anywhere

you do not want to be full screen against green arrow, he wins that war all the time

you want bane full screen

nightwing is two match-ups, with escrima you want to be at full screen, with the staff you want to be outside of sweep (although his staff stance ruins harley's day but who doesn't at this point)
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
you can't really be full screen against grundy, he actually outzones you there (he gives no fucks about your horizontal gunshot)
you need to be in air shot range

green lantern should just be "bend over", you are not safe from him anywhere

you do not want to be full screen against green arrow, he wins that war all the time

you want bane full screen

nightwing is two match-ups, with escrima you want to be at full screen, with the staff you want to be outside of sweep (although his staff stance ruins harley's day but who doesn't at this point)
-Grundy- MB swamp hands can be blocked low.. Your horizontal gun shots beat him out of regular swamp hands, forcing to make poor Solomon favor the D to block position (which they tend to favor after multiple dashes anyway. Grundy is your typical grappler- and logic says.. KEEP HIM AWAY AT ALL COST (see Zangief in SF). Once Grundy gets in.. F3 works wonders on a dash happy Grundy... Don't be afraid to MB B3 if you have a trait grab happy Grundy.. When he advances- you should not be aiming to hit Grundy from the front.. You want to get over top of him and let his momentum carry him forward and attack from behind. Grundy can NOT out zone Harley. It is when Harley quits winning the zoning battle, gets bored and decides to get cute and smack Grundy that usually ends up in a dead Harley.

-Green Lantern: you are 100% safe from at range (not mindlessly however). If you zone unwisely you will eat his missiles . However, his horizontal missiles are 100% duckable and in many situations can be countered with a gunshot then safely ducked. He will not use jumping missiles unless he is eating clock on the defensive (many if not all can be avoided by backdash or walking back, or blocked high) GL is NOT banking on his jumping missile chip to beat you.. So what are his other options? Trait full screen Gatling gun? Block and counter or wait out trait... Continue..
His turbine attack thrown from ground? Gunshot eats it, Air? Cupcakes eats it.. GL is your bitch from full screen. What this also will do is frustrate him into trying to get in ASAP- air turbine ride? If you have life lead on GL and he is fullscreen.. a neutral means prepare for air turbine!!! Cupcakes eat it alive.. And GL's get VERY antsy when you are out of Lanterns Might and Sliding sweep kick to follow up range.

-Green Arrow- his green arrows are worth 1% on hit.. Trades are good. GA's tend to like the crouch fire position in a fire fight.. Once/if you have the superiority your gunshot eats his arrow start up- on ANY arrow.. Outright on green arrows, special arrows may still fly toward you- block them. This forces GA to again.. Blind rush you sloppily to get in out of frustration. Dashing, jumping or dash and slide combo's.. Use Harley's tools to send him back to his corner.

-Bane: has 3 types of armor to disagree with keeping him at full screen.. Not to mention, from full screen you can not make him properly pay for venom usage during his debuff time.. You want him outside sweep when that debuff hits because that is where the MU is won. Bane like Grundy tend to favor the D to block position, and are especially fond of their quick and long reaching low kick.. It is also very hard to exploit these two things from full screen- except for perhaps (readable or predictable) cupcakes or pop pop.

-Nightwing- out zones Harley in both forms.. His escrima stance: He ducks your gunshots, you jump his sparks- draw! You are more mobile during his escrima stance (during a fire fight)- use it to get half way and air gunshot him for his trouble: Careful of his wingding counters.
Staff stance: call him Aquaman.. Just like you should NOT try to outzone AM, you should treat staff stance the same. You rule this MU in the air and outside sweep distance.. His lack of mobility/jumping should be taken advantage of.. And Staff Nightwing is ALL about momentum.. Once he gets going he is hard to stop.. Use push block to get some space and don't let him gain momentum.
 

x MAD AXES x

Lighten up will ya!
Honestly with the few Matches I played my Harley vs scorpion I would say it's 7-3 in Harleys favor, His low leg grab can be blocked and punished with b22, his teleport can be baited and she can hold d after the gun shot, spear is duckable so gunshot duck, ss evades the hellfire and ss tantrum will punish. His overheads are slow so you can most likely react to it after a while so he can't really 50/50 you. I wouldn't advise jumping into him because of d+2. So I would say stay in ss tantrum distance for the match as his crossup potential is good and wake ups have armor.
 

Fergus

Like Father, Like Daughter
Guess I'm gonna put my opinions on what Harley's matchups are like, keep in mind I haven't played some of these matchups so I'm gonna leave a ? beside it.

Aquaman 3-7
Ares 5-5
Bane 6-4
Batgirl 4-6
Batman 4-6
Black Adam (?)
Catwoman 5-5
Cyborg 4-6
Deathstroke 4-6
Doomsday 4-6 (Might change to 5-5 with the new 50/50 on these chars)
Flash (?)
Green Arrow (?)
Green Lantern 3.5-6.5
Harley Quinn 5-5
Hawkgirl 6-4
Joker (?)
Killer Frost 4-6
Lex Luthor 5-5 (possible 6-4 due to how fast Harley can interrupt him)
Lobo (?)
Nightwing (?)
Raven 4-6
Scorpion (?)
Shazam 5-5
Sinestro 4-6
Solomon 5-5
Superman 4-6
Wonder Woman 4-6

Keep in mind that I pretty much only play offline so I don't have a wide variety of matchups for access, feel free to discuss.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
Guess I'm gonna put my opinions on what Harley's matchups are like, keep in mind I haven't played some of these matchups so I'm gonna leave a ? beside it.

Aquaman 3-7
Ares 5-5
Bane 6-4
Batgirl 4-6
Batman 4-6
Black Adam (?)
Catwoman 5-5
Cyborg 4-6
Deathstroke 4-6
Doomsday 4-6 (Might change to 5-5 with the new 50/50 on these chars)
Flash (?)
Green Arrow (?)
Green Lantern 3.5-6.5
Harley Quinn 5-5
Hawkgirl 6-4
Joker (?)
Killer Frost 4-6
Lex Luthor 5-5 (possible 6-4 due to how fast Harley can interrupt him)
Lobo (?)
Nightwing (?)
Raven 4-6
Scorpion (?)
Shazam 5-5
Sinestro 4-6
Solomon 5-5
Superman 4-6
Wonder Woman 4-6

Keep in mind that I pretty much only play offline so I don't have a wide variety of matchups for access, feel free to discuss.
No real complaints or disagreements with your points.. Will do my best to fill in "?"

Black Adam 4-6
Flash 5-5
Green Arrow 5-5
Joker 5-5
Lobo 6-4
Nightwing 4-6
 

serge

Mortal
I was just about to post the same Webs :)
I agree with you and Fergus on everything except how do you guys beat Hawkgirl ? The only HG I play vs is some good player I met online and hes winning 2:1 vs me.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
I was just about to post the same Webs :)
I agree with you and Fergus on everything except how do you guys beat Hawkgirl ? The only HG I play vs is some good player I met online and hes winning 2:1 vs me.
I have a write up on this thread about HG.. In short.. Need distance- readily available supply of cupcake bombs, and good reads/punish on her mace charge. It is safe yes.. But much like Black Adam it is about reading what HG tendencies are AFTER the mace charge.
 
black adam is definitely 3-7, same for nightwing, and superman
she's definitely at the disadvantage against grundy 4-6
i don't see how cyborg could be 4-6 instead of 3-7 (but i have yet to face one sooo..)
sinestro is definitely 3-7
lobo is even, his dash is surprisingly effective against harley's gunshot

the rest seems fine

against hawkgirl, harley is really good at making sure people stay out of the air, use cupcake bombs...a lot
 

KamkaziChicila

Harley & Zatana is all I need.
I was just about to post the same Webs :)
I agree with you and Fergus on everything except how do you guys beat Hawkgirl ? The only HG I play vs is some good player I met online and hes winning 2:1 vs me.
MB Cupcakes say hi.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
black adam is definitely 3-7, same for nightwing, and superman
she's definitely at the disadvantage against grundy 4-6
i don't see how cyborg could be 4-6 instead of 3-7 (but i have yet to face one sooo..)
sinestro is definitely 3-7
lobo is even, his dash is surprisingly effective against harley's gunshot

the rest seems fine

against hawkgirl, harley is really good at making sure people stay out of the air, use cupcake bombs...a lot
3-7's? A bit harsh..

Lobo even? His multiple dashes get eaten alive by SSxxTS or TS depending on range ..
 

Fergus

Like Father, Like Daughter
Yeah I figured MB cupcakes would be amazing vs Hawkgirl.

Cyborg and Sinestro might be a bit closer to 7-3 rather than 6-4 but I think Harley can create some breathing space with gunshot, more so vs Cyborg when you knock him down with gunshot between the gaps in his fireball (ground fireball, air fireball), you have time to block and SS in to close the gap a bit, but she has horrible mixups upclose anyway so closing the gap is kinda moot lol but has to be done. Sinestro MIGHT be a 7-3 anyway.

No clue on Black Adam match since I've only played that matchup once ever. Not sure why you say Grundy is 4-6, is it due to ex hand catching her projectiles easy enough? I feel air gunshot gives him big issues.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
Yeah I figured MB cupcakes would be amazing vs Hawkgirl.

Cyborg and Sinestro might be a bit closer to 7-3 rather than 6-4 but I think Harley can create some breathing space with gunshot, more so vs Cyborg when you knock him down with gunshot between the gaps in his fireball (ground fireball, air fireball), you have time to block and SS in to close the gap a bit, but she has horrible mixups upclose anyway so closing the gap is kinda moot lol but has to be done. Sinestro MIGHT be a 7-3 anyway.

No clue on Black Adam match since I've only played that matchup once ever. Not sure why you say Grundy is 4-6, is it due to ex hand catching her projectiles easy enough? I feel air gunshot gives him big issues.
Grundy is 5-5
 

Fergus

Like Father, Like Daughter
I feel so too, just gotta pester him with air gunshots.

Also f1,3 is good vs him, it hops over his command grab, same with f+3. He can cancel his walking corpse (running grab) so be wary on how to approach this, if you hold up to try and land a jumpin combo to "punish", he can cancel and d2. When he's upclose, you just gotta ride out the mixup. I got owned by Grundy first time I played him because I came from SF background and was not used to command grabs being cancelled into and actually grabbing whereas in SF it'd whiff if they're still in blockstun.
 

Katt

Magnet
what sick corner game does she have?
If you get someone in the corner in a juggle then you're in for a treat.

Do combo and end with 112 1 2 (2 will whiff but moves you closer)
Now you can either do nj2 (hits them from the front) or ji2 (Crosses up) and it's next to impossible to see which side you will hit. And you decide.

So yeah either
nj2 b22xxTS1 nj2 f13 112 1 2 (And repeat the setup)

or

ji2 123 (flips them back into the wall) f13 112 1 2 (And repeat the setup)

Have fun! I am! :D
 

KamkaziChicila

Harley & Zatana is all I need.
My personal opinion:
Grundy 5-5 keep away from him (he's a grappler), abuse air guns, end combos early so you have room to move away from him. if close like Fergus said f1,3 is nice vs Walking Corpse since he can't grab while you are in that "air state" with the 3.

Black Adam 5-5. Need to play mid/close against him. He can trade fullscreen and get free 19%, his mid game can be scary, but after a bunch of games you'll learn how to play solid. Although he has massive damage off basic combos, we have ridiculous high/low/setups.
 
outside of 112 xx SS, she's got like nothing

grundy needs to catch your mistake once and your advantage is gone, he can punish you on your (basically) only tool to stop him, one trade and he's in

while he has a hard time getting in, it's simply one mistake and your done while harley needs to play perfect in order to not let that happen

black adam's up close game is better than harley's... sadface
harley has terrible high-low set-ups
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
outside of 112 xx SS, she's got like nothing

grundy needs to catch your mistake once and your advantage is gone, he can punish you on your (basically) only tool to stop him, one trade and he's in

while he has a hard time getting in, it's simply one mistake and your done while harley needs to play perfect in order to not let that happen

black adam's up close game is better than harley's... sadface
harley has terrible high-low set-ups
MU's are based off of best player vs best player.. Not your personal bad MU's or experiences... While on any level- you may do well against say- Superman.. And say you personally have a 5-2 win ratio vs him.. That does not make Superman MU 5-2.. You could not be more wrong about Grundy.. Many times when you get him aggressive it opens up plenty of room to get OVER him and punish his animations.. I don't know mood- you seem to read about everything on SRK and TYM, add your own personal experience and state it as fact.. It's just not so. Black Adams up close game is not "better" than anyone's.. If you can block.. If you can't block- he will damage you easier and harder, but that does not make it gospel that his close game is "better".
 
if only his anti-air grab didn't grab cross-ups (seriously, that shit is dumb)

black adam at least has a high-low game...unlike harley
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
if only his anti-air grab didn't grab cross-ups (seriously, that shit is dumb)

black adam at least has a high-low game...unlike harley
If you jump into him yes.. If he is charging you with either MB grab it his running grab, his grab throw AA has NO application.. When you start punishing his grab moves FROM BEHIND- you have one perplexed Grundy who will favor the DOWN position which opens him up to F3 for combo or more guns..

Learn the visuals, block and punish. D1 x2 into B2,2... Or get in a D1 war with him to a NJ2 punish..
I just don't see the problem? BA is a higher tier and better than Harley... But winnable depending on how you play, Grundy is a grappler.. Use grappler staples from every fighting game EVER..