General discussion Tech/Strategy/Questions

[quandaghost]

K.O.E if and when you decide to do a part on mix-ups i have a couple of void set-ups you may like one that is a bit difficult to pull of at first but once you get it down its ok it also doesn't end like any other void set-up, but its corner only and does 47% pm and i'll tell you more about it. the other one is a classic void combo that can be done in the corner that does around 45% both take 1 meter to do.

 

[quandaghost]

scorpion actually doesn't have great footsies like cage or the tops but he does have some good strings that can start pressure and when used correctly they often times will beat out other characters moves. his 3,3 primarily is an effective poke stuffer if spaced and used correctly not to mention its safe on block and can lead into a vortex. the thing about scorpion is would you wanna deal with Deadly Alliance Scorpion with great normals in his Pi Gua stance, or a scorpion with slightly average normals and that when placed well has the ability to start his mix-up game which is the most deadly part of his game.

 

[OutworldKeith]

I'm talking about the description in this very thread, which is why I mentioned your coming video.

Everything there is basically move in and out to bait and punish, i.e. bare bones footsies. The problem is Scorpion doesn't have moves fast enough, advantegeous or safe on block to make this solid.

The description isn't finished yet. I'm not even done gathering data. I also have to experiment with other characters to see what's possible. For now, I'm leaning towards anti-air.

 

[OutworldKeith]

scorpion actually doesn't have great footsies like cage or the tops but he does have some good strings that can start pressure and when used correctly they often times will beat out other characters moves. his 3,3 primarily is an effective poke stuffer if spaced and used correctly not to mention its safe on block and can lead into a vortex. the thing about scorpion is would you wanna deal with Deadly Alliance Scorpion with great normals in his Pi Gua stance, or a scorpion with slightly average normals and that when placed well has the ability to start his mix-up game which is the most deadly part of his game.

I actually was just testing 3,3 as a poke stuffer an it's better than I thought . I agree with this.

 

[Bildslash]

The description isn't finished yet. I'm not even done gathering data. I also have to experiment with other characters to see what's possible. For now, I'm leaning towards anti-air.

Anti-airing is one aspect is Scorpion is pretty good at, with several options all leading into Vortex. However, anti-airs are a different matter from footsies.

My point is, with the normals he has you basically have to work twice as hard to achieve results. None of the basic pokes provide advantage (+1 on + counts next to nothing) to start pressure promptly and his best punishers are also his greatest weaknesses. In short, Scorpion is a gamble character.

It may come as a surprise with all my apparent bashing to the character, but he's my #1 main.

 

[quandaghost]

Anti-airing is one aspect is Scorpion is pretty good at, with several options all leading into Vortex. However, anti-airs are a different matter from footsies.

My point is, with the normals he has you basically have to work twice as hard to achieve results. None of the basic pokes provide advantage (+1 on + counts next to nothing) to start pressure promptly and his best punishers are also his greatest weaknesses. In short, Scorpion is a gamble character.

It may come as a surprise with all my apparent bashing to the character, but he's my #1 main.

sir this is actually incorrect as scorpion is plus after a 1,1 after a 2,1 and after a 3,3. scorpion can also make those strings into effective frame traps such as the famous dollar menu. he can also do things such 1,1 2,1 which will stuff any attempt to jump out of pressure, and he can do a 3,3 after the 2,1 to stuff and poke including d1, d2, d3, and some d4, and if he so wishes he can do a d1 after that to stuff the jump out of pressure and any other counter poke. scorpion good tools that require an understanding of the character and his pressure to use

 

[Bildslash]

sir this is actually incorrect as scorpion is plus after a 1,1 after a 2,1 and after a 3,3. scorpion can also make those strings into effective frame traps such as the famous dollar menu. he can also do things such 1,1 2,1 which will stuff any attempt to jump out of pressure, and he can do a 3,3 after the 2,1 to stuff and poke including d1, d2, d3, and some d4, and if he so wishes he can do a d1 after that to stuff the jump out of pressure and any other counter poke. scorpion good tools that require an understanding of the character and his pressure to use

I said pokes not his strings. All those strings are good, however with short range. The fastest at 10 frames is also the shortest ranged. Which means you would naturally make your way in with any down poke, however, you really can't.

 

[quandaghost]

I said pokes not his strings. All those strings are good, however with short range. The fastest at 10 frames is also the shortest ranged. Which means you would naturally make your way in with any down poke, however, you really can't.

once again this is where understanding of the character comes in even slips has told me that scorpion has bad footsies and with the way this game is going its really footsies at the high level. I think as a scorpion player knowing what he is and isnt capable of your going to find ways around this. I always am able to pressure my opponent if need be when i play and i can always get in if i have to. Hazezie and @sgt.reed can testify that this doesn't hinder scorpion, or the way i may play him in any bit.

 

[Bildslash]

once again this is where understanding of the character comes in even slips has told me that scorpion has bad footsies and with the way this game is going its really footsies at the high level. I think as a scorpion player knowing what he is and isnt capable of your going to find ways around this. I always am able to pressure my opponent if need be when i play and i can always get in if i have to. Hazezie and @sgt.reed can testify that this doesn't hinder scorpion, or the way i may play him in any bit.

Let me retake your previous post.

You mentioned several of his to-go strings allow Scorpion to keep pressuring the opponent, prevent jump aways and stuff pokes. That is not entirely true.

and start both at 12 frames, and are zero on block and on hit, so the only "advantage" on hit is damage. is 10 frames, unsafe on block (you have to commit to or try a Takedown) and on hit is only +2. All those strings aren't fast enough or provide advantage to stuff pokes. Pokes are on average 6/7 frames. If the opponent tries to jump out of pressure is because they simply don't know Scorpion and hence you end up winning on the basis of smoke and mirrors. All the opponent has to do is poke his way out; the frame numbers don't lie.

It is because of that I have stopped pressuring mindlessly with him. I've opted to do feinting up close in order to catch an opening that lets me start a Vortex/Void combo setup. The frame data puts into perspective a lot of things. I recall (don't remember on which tournament) a match were Check was basically chipping down the opponent with the dollar menu. Now on hindsight you can realize his opponent was simply respecting Scorpion's strings way too much.

I agreed knowledge is everything to get around certain situations. More the reason why I'm trying to get to the bottom of things. I don't care if the opponent doesn't know what Scorpion can or can't do, more power to us. Whereas, we Scorpion player need to know what works and doesn't and clear any misconceptions that will costs us games at high level.


P.S.: Are you on PSN or Xbox?

 

[OutworldKeith]

Bildslash the match your referring to was Check vs Chris G. Chris wasn't using fundamentals to stop pressure (i.e low poking). 1,1,1 is one of the best poking/pressure strings, and if used correctly it can be a bitch to get past.

On a side note, the fact that people think that Scorpion's low pokes are the worst actually add a layer of strategy to the metagame. For example, I like to buffer back dashes after my d+1 or d+4, so if the opponent doesn't respect my pokes and thinks he can just rush down after I poke him I'll be able to whiff punish whatever he throws at me. Of course I'll have to make a read, but the back dash gives me enough time/space to react.

 

[Saint]

D
There is no definite description. Footsies are character specific.

Man there's no denying in the fact that you have nothing to fear while approaching scorp

He has no kitana f2,1 or cage f3 to be wary of. His longest pokes are b2 and f4 which are both EXTREMELY slow and only one of which lead to something without having to commit and put yourself at extreme risk

 

[OutworldKeith]

Man there's no denying in the fact that you have nothing to fear while approaching scorp

He has no kitana f2,1 or cage f3 to be wary of. His longest pokes are b2 and f4 which are both EXTREMELY slow and only one of which lead to something without having to commit and put yourself at extreme risk

Kitana can't just throw out f+2,1 either bro. This is where knowing the exact range of your opponents pokes and your own comes into play. For example, if I'm vs Cage I know his main poke is f+3. If I'm in a situation where I know he will use f+3 and all I have to do is back dash to make it whiff I can punish his f+3. The duration is 36 so I can punish with B+2 or F+4.

 

[Saint]

Kitana can't just throw out f+2,1 either bro. This is where knowing the exact range of your opponents pokes and your own comes into play. For example, if I'm vs Cage I know his main poke is f+3. If I'm in a situation where I know he will use f+3 and all I have to do is back dash to make it whiff I can punish his f+3. The duration is 36 so I can punish with B+2 or F+4.

Okay let's continue there, why would cage whiff his f3, what is stopping him from just walking up to you to the point where it won't whiff. What am I as a scorpion player gonna do to stop that.

Try my luck with f4spear and risk being put in his pressure? F4takedown to put myself into his pressure?
Use my 1 string just to be put at 0 advantage even if I hit where he's gonna dominate the fight?

Point being, outside of jump in range, Scorpion has nothing but hellfire to combat the majority of the cast (unless they're stupid enough to jump into your spear). In jump in range, he is beat by at least half the cast simply because their tools are more effective than his.

I think at the very highest level, where you and your opponent both know the matchup, scorp is at a serious disadvantage.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Okay let's continue there, why would cage whiff his f3, what is stopping him from just walking up to you to the point where it won't whiff. What am I as a scorpion player gonna do to stop that.

Try my luck with f4spear and risk being put in his pressure? F4takedown to put myself into his pressure?
Use my 1 string just to be put at 0 advantage even if I hit where he's gonna dominate the fight?

Point being, outside of jump in range, Scorpion has nothing but hellfire to combat the majority of the cast (unless they're stupid enough to jump into your spear). In jump in range, he is beat by at least half the cast simply because their tools are more effective than his.

I think at the very highest level, where you and your opponent both know the matchup, scorp is at a serious disadvantage.

Are you reading? The back dash can make it whiff then you punish accordingly. It's called whiff punishing.

 

[Saint]

Are you reading? The back dash can make it whiff then you punish accordingly. It's called whiff punishing.

Dude how many times do you think a cage will fall for that?

Let's say you 11 and back dash trying to get him whiffing his f3 like in your video, all the cage player has to do is dash with you and his f3 with outright beat your b2

 

[OutworldKeith]

Dude how many times do you think a cage will fall for that?

Let's say you 11 and back dash trying to get him whiffing his f3 like in your video, all the cage player has to do is dash with you and his f3 with outright beat your b2

Study some footage of other fighting games at high level. It's not about if he will fall for it, but about if you can make him fall for it. It's all about the mind games.

 

[Saint]

Study some footage of other fighting games at high level. It's not about if he will fall for it, but about if you can make him fall for it. It's all about the mind games.

First it's making up for a matchup that is not in your favor to begin with by working much harder than your opponent to achieve the same goal. Only then can you play your mind games.

 

[quandaghost]

man look how about yall either contribute and help or not post in this thing cause like seriously instead of arguing how bad you think he is you could simply be helping with the guide to help new people get into te character or help old people realize some things and make him better

 

[Bildslash]

man look how about yall either contribute and help or not post in this thing cause like seriously instead of arguing how bad you think he is you could simply be helping with the guide to help new people get into te character or help old people realize some things and make him better

We're contributing by clearing a misconception that can get you blown up. I simply pointed out that the Cons section should change "average footsies" to "almost no footsies". The current discussion spawned from that.

We don't have to post only positive things to contribute --it depends on what you consider positive to begin with anyway. Discussion is never a bad thing if it helps create new ideas. By making new and old Scorpion players aware of the holes and gaps in his offense we open the door to then explore his other options.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Bildslash Actually anti-air is a important aspect of footsies. If you can't stop someone from jumping there's really no point in trying to play footsies because they'll just jump in on you.

 

[Slips]

Dude how many times do you think a cage will fall for that?

Let's say you 11 and back dash trying to get him whiffing his f3 like in your video, all the cage player has to do is dash with you and his f3 with outright beat your b2

Or jump, or just keep blocking, which are pretty common options people use. lol

Scorpion's whiff punisher (b+2) is a move that is awful on whiff, awful on block, and does not advance him forward to help avoid jump ins and catch people backdashing.

He doesn't have a Smoke b23, or Kitana f+21 or Kabal f+42 or JC f+3 or Kenshi f+32 or Sektor b+34/f+2 or Sonya cartwheel or Liu Kang b+321, Striker roll, Raiden b+312, KL f+3, Rain 43 ect.. But let me digress, as these are some of the best whiff punishers in the game as they are not punishable by block avoid jump-ins altogether and catch backdashers. Maybe we shouldn't get greedy.

Maybe Scorp falls within the next tier of whiff punishers? The ones that are punishable in some sort of way but at least avoid jump-ins and prevent backdashing. Like Reptile dash, Ermac push, Baraka blades, Mileena ball, CSZ dive kick ect.

Nah, don't got that either. But thats not so bad I mean some of those are super punishable anyway...but man, ALL lot of those characters have safe low pokes that lower their hitbox to help avoid jump-ins and give them a lot of frames as well which allow them to set up their entire offense once they hit. Kinda like a Sub d+4 or Sonya/Mileena/Baraka/Reptile d+4 or a KL/Ermac/Kenshi/Shang d+3. Do we have that?

Nope. Not even that.

Scorp has got awful whiff punishers and probably the worst low pokes in the game. These are two essential key ingredients to having good footsies. And I don't know if you all have noticed, but characters with dominate footsies are dominating this game, leaving Scorpion in a lot of trouble.

 

[Saint]

Or jump, or just keep blocking, which are pretty common options people use. lol

Scorpion's whiff punisher (b+2) is a move that is awful on whiff, awful on block, and does not advance him forward to help avoid jump ins and catch people backdashing.

He doesn't have a Smoke b23, or Kitana f+21 or Kabal f+42 or JC f+3 or Kenshi f+32 or Sektor b+34/f+2 or Sonya cartwheel or Liu Kang b+321, Striker roll, Raiden b+312, KL f+3, Rain 43 ect.. But let me digress, as these are some of the best whiff punishers in the game as they are not punishable by block avoid jump-ins altogether and catch backdashers. Maybe we shouldn't get greedy.

Maybe Scorp falls within the next tier of whiff punishers? The ones that are punishable in some sort of way but at least avoid jump-ins and prevent backdashing. Like Reptile dash, Ermac push, Baraka blades, Mileena ball, CSZ dive kick ect.

Nah, don't got that either. But thats not so bad I mean some of those are super punishable anyway...but man, ALL lot of those characters have safe low pokes that lower their hitbox to help avoid jump-ins and give them a lot of frames as well which allow them to set up their entire offense once they hit. Kinda like a Sub d+4 or Sonya/Mileena/Baraka/Reptile d+4 or a KL/Ermac/Kenshi/Shang d+3. Do we have that?

Nope. Not even that.

Scorp has got awful whiff punishers and probably the worst low pokes in the game. These are two essential key ingredients to having good footsies. And I don't know if you all have noticed, but characters with dominate footsies are dominating this game, leaving Scorpion in a lot of trouble.

Broski, I'm well aware, we're on the same page

If you read my posts on that page I'm saying exactly the same thing you did just now

I tried to explain it to the guy but he's in denial x)

 

[Tickle Brisket]

Bump lol. Amazing stuff Slips you have made me want to pick up this character .You should do some Scorpion 101 videos XD

 

[Derptile]

Back when Scorpion could be considered the best ninja....
















lol

 

[Scoot Magee]

What good are good anti airs when scorpion has nothing that will make other characters jump outside of hellfire?

btw b2 is a fraud whiff punisher. It's not even useful vs a lot of good normals because it's too slow to whiff punish them on reaction.