F Champ Receives Lifetime Ban, Racism in the FGC/USA, and Other Prevalent Social Discussions

[M2Dave]

Countless people tell me I'm wrong but can't ever prove it.

I have supplied a surfeit of data and statistics that prove the groups that you claim are contemporary being oppressed in America earn high income, at times even surpassing the income of Whites. Some groups that are on the bottom of the socioeconomic scale still earn more income than the same groups in other developed countries. Reading this thread falsely makes you believe that most African-Americans are poor when in reality most belong to the middle class and earn a higher income than other people of African origin anywhere else in the world. I am not suggesting that these facts, which completely obliterate your ideology of oppression and victimization in America, mean that progress is finished and hence ought to cease. I am merely suggesting that progress takes time. For a people who were enslaved and mistreated very recently historically speaking, they have made and will continue to make tremendous achievements because of their own merit. They do not need a socialist or communist government confiscating and sharing their wealth.

Speaking of communists...

You can't just say that nobody is posting any solutions because they're solutions that you disagree with. May I also add that you haven't given a good counter argument, if any counter argument AT ALL really, against said solutions - except saying "bu bu bu bu but Marxism". Please have some talking points of your own that aren't regurgitated from the excrement of Fox News.

You are not seriously defending Marxism and communism, are you? I disagree with the solutions as there is no evidence that they ever properly functioned in a society. The ideas that you and others are ignorantly spewing have historically resulted in extreme poverty and the deaths of millions of people of all races and ethnic backgrounds. Study the collapse of the Soviet Union if you are in need of some counter arguments.

 

[Marlow]

Every time I have requested solutions from leftists in this thread I have received the same Marxist solutions.

This is one of the things that bothers me. You keep using the word Marxist, like it's the ultimate boogeyman, and keep trying to connect every single policy suggestion that is even remotely left leaning to Marxism and all the baggage associated with it.

Things like minimum wage, universal healthcare, strong social safety net programs, worker's rights, higher taxes, these are all policies which exist in a wide spectrum of countries. They're not radical far fetched solutions.

 

[M2Dave]

This is one of the things that bothers me. You keep using the word Marxist, like it's the ultimate boogeyman, and keep trying to connect every single policy suggestion that is even remotely left leaning to Marxism and all the baggage associated with it.

Advocating massive wealth distribution, reparations, and the abolishing of the police force are proposals that are well to the left of liberalism in the United States. These policies have as much of a chance to pass in Congress as I have of winning the lottery.

Things like minimum wage, universal healthcare, strong social safety net programs, worker's rights, higher taxes, these are all policies which exist in a wide spectrum of countries. They're not radical far fetched solutions.

Those policies are well-intended, but some of them would have negative consequences on the same people whom you want to help. I have already discussed how raising the minimum wage could harm poor people.

We need to switch focus from attempting to create a Utopia to a system that functions in the real world.

 

[Marlow]

Those policies are well-intended, but some of them would have negative consequences on the same people whom you want to help. I have already discussed how raising the minimum wage could harm poor people.

Yeah, and I've already rebutted that. Even the article you linked simply said it "might" not "would" have negative consequences, and then gave a lot of examples where the job losses of raising minimum wage never materialized.

We need to switch focus from attempting to create a Utopia to a system that functions in the real world.

Plenty of countries which already function in the real world have things like universal healthcare, higher taxation in order to pay for stronger social safety net programs, and minimum wage, despite being Market Economies. Places like Australia and Switzerland, for example. There are plenty of models of success.


Again, you ask for solutions, but when people offer them you simply hand wave those solutions away, label them Marxist, and essentially rely on conflating economic policy proposals with social policy proposals and negative historical connotations.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Advocating massive wealth distribution, reparations, and the abolishing of the police force are proposals that are well to the left of liberalism in the United States. These policies have as much of a chance to pass in Congress as I have of winning the lottery.



Those policies are well-intended, but some of them would have negative consequences on the same people whom you want to help. I have already discussed how raising the minimum wage could harm poor people.

We need to switch focus from attempting to create a Utopia to a system that functions in the real world.

It's like the same way you accuse @CrimsonShadow and others of tying everything in America to racism, you're determined to tie everything that isn't in line with your point to Marxism.

Rich people paying their taxes, and not having individuals be allowed to accumulate hundreds of billions of dollars while the country itself can't afford national healthcare or better education, isn't a Utopian ideal. It's how things should actually work in a capitalist democracy. You can passively insult and name-call around it all you want. Won't change the facts, won't make us Marxists. We're giving you solutions; they just aren't good enough for you.

Also, the fact that you think your numbers "completely obliterate my ideology of oppression and victimization" in the face of people, including myself, who have literally lived in the trap of that oppression and victimization and are telling you as vocally as possible that numbers DO NOT tell the entire story, is completely delusional.
I was literally persecuted and made an example of in my youth because I was the heavy metal Latino kid living in a Bush/Cheney town who looked close enough to Arab to throw out of school and tell all the donors and rich parents about, in spite of doing nothing but having a conversation ABOUT A CONVERSATION I had had with my friend in 6th grade about Columbine. And if it wasn't for my mother's position as a social worker and threats to sue the school district, I would've never been reinstated. But sure, you're doing a great job obliterating that oppressive ideology, telling us who've lived through it that it isn't real. Jesus Christ.

 

[ItsYaBoi]

I have supplied a surfeit of data and statistics that prove the groups that you claim are contemporary being oppressed in America earn high income, at times even surpassing the income of Whites. Some groups that are on the bottom of the socioeconomic scale still earn more income than the same groups in other developed countries. Reading this thread falsely makes you believe that most African-Americans are poor when in reality most belong to the middle class and earn a higher income than other people of African origin anywhere else in the world. I am not suggesting that these facts, which completely obliterate your ideology of oppression and victimization in America, mean that progress is finished and hence ought to cease. I am merely suggesting that progress takes time. For a people who were enslaved and mistreated very recently historically speaking, they have made and will continue to make tremendous achievements because of their own merit. They do not need a socialist or communist government confiscating and sharing their wealth.

Speaking of communists...



You are not seriously defending Marxism and communism, are you? I disagree with the solutions as there is no evidence that they ever properly functioned in a society. The ideas that you and others are ignorantly spewing have historically resulted in extreme poverty and the deaths of millions of people of all races and ethnic backgrounds. Study the collapse of the Soviet Union if you are in need of some counter arguments.

If you think that the collapse of the Soviet Union was because of the (very reasonable) policies that we're advocating here, then you need a SERIOUS history lesson. Again, I'm baffled as to how you're a teacher.

I'm also still yet to hear any reasonable counter argument from you. Also yet to see you address your hypocrisy which I touched upon in the very same post that you quoted. Are you for freedom of consequence or not? Have people given you potential solutions (no matter how much you might disagree with them) or not?

Try and answer without mentioning liberals or Marxism. It's clear you have no understanding of what either of those mean.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Also: Washington Post is reporting 15 women employed/formerly employed in the NFL by Washington have come out this morning with accusations of sexual and verbal harassment between 2006 and 2019 against several ex-scouts and individuals close to owner Dan Snyder.

Those of you who are already getting your sexist apologist talking points ready for this one, I cannot wait to see how y'all try and justify or negate this.

If you think that the collapse of the Soviet Union was because of the (very reasonable) policies that we're advocating here, then you need a SERIOUS history lesson. Again, I'm baffled as to how you're a teacher.

I'm also still yet to hear any reasonable counter argument from you. Also yet to see you address your hypocrisy which I touched upon in the very same post that you quoted. Are you for freedom of consequence or not? Have people given you potential solutions (no matter how much you might disagree with them) or not?

Try and answer without mentioning liberals or Marxism. It's clear you have no understanding of what either of those mean.

Bruh, you saw this man bob and weave me for almost two weeks without a comeback except for one BLM video that supposedly spoke for EVERYONE who supports that movement and not the one individual who made it. You know how it goes.
The most ironic part of this whole thread is that for a fella who claims to loathe anti-zoning zealots above all others, he's ducking and dodging the irrefutable truth of all this conversation even better than MK9 Smoke and his majestic hair could duck and dodge projectiles.

 

[KingHippo]

Today I learned that universal Healthcare, workers rights, and social safety nets that exist in the majority of the EU and other major nations in the world are "utopian"

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Today I learned that universal Healthcare, workers rights, and social safety nets that exist in the majority of the EU and other major nations in the world are "utopian"

Could've fucking fooled me, Hip. I was under the naive and foolish impression that they were the means to make quality of life in the country better for everyone who doesn't know how to exploit the numbers game well enough to become wealthy or lobby for the people who do.

Learn something new every day, I guess.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Well as long as it's reasonable socialism. I thought y'all might be talking that other socialism they came up with.

We get it. America is that big, good-looking jock that fucked your high school crush when she should've paid attention to a nice guy like you. So fuck him.

 

[Marlow]

Well as long as it's reasonable socialism. I thought y'all might be talking that other socialism they came up with.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Plenty of countries with Market Driven economies still employ socialist style benefit programs. In America we have social security and Medicaid. We can't we just discuss policies based on their own merits, instead of trying to villify them by labeling them "Sociolism!" as if it's some boogeyman?

 

[M2Dave]

Yeah, and I've already rebutted that. Even the article you linked simply said it "might" not "would" have negative consequences, and then gave a lot of examples where the job losses of raising minimum wage never materialized.

You have rebutted nothing. The objective of the article is to provide the pros and cons of raising the minimum wage. I linked the article to rebut the notion that raising the minimum wage has no unintended consequences.

Again, you ask for solutions, but when people offer them you simply hand wave those solutions away, label them Marxist, and essentially rely on conflating economic policy proposals with social policy proposals and negative historical connotations.

As I have already explained, some of the solutions are genuinely Marxist while the premise is most certainly anti-American.

Again, I'm baffled as to how you're a teacher.

1. I conduct myself professionally and never engage in political discussions with students and parents.
2. I teach a subject that has nothing to do with history or social studies.
3. You ought to judge my teaching based on my credentials, not my political positions.

As far as your other comments and questions are concerned, I have answered all of them at some point. I have over 100 posts in this thread. LOL. I thank MrApchem, King Hippo, and others who provided solutions. I obviously disagree with the solutions because I think they are far to the left.

I was literally persecuted and made an example of in my youth because I was the heavy metal Latino kid living in a Bush/Cheney town who looked close enough to Arab to throw out of school and tell all the donors and rich parents about, in spite of doing nothing but having a conversation ABOUT A CONVERSATION I had had with my friend in 6th grade about Columbine. And if it wasn't for my mother's position as a social worker and threats to sue the school district, I would've never been reinstated. But sure, you're doing a great job obliterating that oppressive ideology, telling us who've lived through it that it isn't real. Jesus Christ.

I am sorry that you lived through that experience, but you are making an identity argument. You are more or less saying that unless I look and share the same experience as you do, my argument has no value. Besides, do you genuinely believe that I was never bullied in school because of I am foreign and speak English with an accent? I am not going to hold America and the system accountable because a handful of fools thought that I was somehow insufficiently American. I am confident and successful and nobody can offend me without my consent.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Rather than raising minimum wage, I think we need to automate all the menial jobs we can and institute a universal basic income. I'm posting from my phone so won't link to anything, but it's easy enough to find sources that outline how that will actually save us a ton of money overall.

 

[M2Dave]

Jesus Christ...

Rather than raising minimum wage, I think we need to automate all the menial jobs we can and institute a universal basic income. I'm posting from my phone so won't link to anything, but it's easy enough to find sources that outline how that will actually save us a ton of money overall.

Andrew Yang made some good arguments for the universal basic income, but he was considered too libertarian by primary Democratic voters...

 

[Marlow]

I think we need to automate all the menial jobs we can and institute a universal basic income.

I'm a big fan of that, but I think we need a bit more research on how it actually plays out.

 

[ItsYaBoi]

Lol holy fuck, after everything @M2Dave has said in the thread he seems to be an advocate for UBI?

You're the biggest hypocrite that I've ever encountered - online or otherwise. That right there is a solid fact.

Flippity floppity.

 

[Juggs]

Lol holy fuck, after everything @M2Dave has said in the thread he seems to be an advocate for UBI?

You're the biggest hypocrite that I've ever encountered - online or otherwise. That right there is a solid fact.

Flippity floppity.

To be fair, he didn’t advocate for UBI. He said Yang made good arguments for it in response to RoboCop bringing it up. But even if he was advocating for it, I don’t see how that necessarily makes him a hypocrite. Maybe he’s made an argument in direct conflict with the idea of UBI that I just missed, which is definitely possible considering how many posts there are ITT.

 

[ItsYaBoi]

To be fair, he didn’t advocate for UBI. He said Yang made good arguments for it in response to RoboCop bringing it up. But even if he was advocating for it, I don’t see how that necessarily makes him a hypocrite. Maybe he’s made an argument in direct conflict with the idea of UBI that I just missed, which is definitely possible considering how many posts there are ITT.

Because it goes against his argument earlier ITT about believing that people should essentially have to work for it.

It’s very hypocritical to think that Yang made good points for UBI but to completely handwave away the solutions that we’ve provided ITT. A lot of the long term end goals are one and the same.

 

[KingHippo]

One of the problems with UBI as it is argued most times (including with Yang) is that it's often a cudgel to ignore the cruelty in our system and even double down on it. Most proponents of UBI want to use that to then cut social services like Medicare and SNAP and other things, with the goal of getting people to spend money and contribute to the system, which is seen as an inherent good, but not help them when they're down, which is seen as bad.

You can see this laid bare right now. We're in the midst of an enormous health crisis, the biggest in over 100 years, and the government on all sides is deadlocked into not helping people, but getting the economy back up and going. Money is not going to people who are being threatened with eviction and losing their jobs, but to banks, big business, and billionaires. Unemployment getting a needed boost as millions find themselves jobless is seen as "incentivising people not to work," because what's important is work and earning the bosses money, not life.

Until human life is valued over property and cash, we're not going to get anywhere and this country will stay shitty

 

[Juggs]

One of the problems with UBI as it is argued most times (including with Yang) is that it's often a cudgel to ignore the cruelty in our system and even double down on it. Most proponents of UBI want to use that to then cut social services like Medicare and SNAP and other things, with the goal of getting people to spend money and contribute to the system, which is seen as an inherent good, but not help them when they're down, which is seen as bad.

You can see this laid bare right now. We're in the midst of an enormous health crisis, the biggest in over 100 years, and the government on all sides is deadlocked into not helping people, but getting the economy back up and going. Money is not going to people who are being threatened with eviction and losing their jobs, but to banks, big business, and billionaires. Unemployment getting a needed boost as millions find themselves jobless is seen as "incentivising people not to work," because what's important is work and earning the bosses money, not life.

Until human life is valued over property and cash, we're not going to get anywhere and this country will stay shitty

So will enacting UBI necessarily lead to cutting Medicare, SNAP, etc or are you saying certain advocates of UBI are saying they’re for UBI “IF” we cut these other things?

 

[KingHippo]

The people most dead set on UBI all believe it to be the first step in rolling back government-funded social aid. It's supposed to be a stab at bloat and bureaucracy by giving cash directly to people, but most use it as a cudgel to then say the government is too invasive with taxes and needs to be rolled back. You don't have to do both, but it's never enough for the libertarian weirdos and right wing nutters.

We are currently seeing how much a hapless, ineffectual government that helps no one is actually doing.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I am sorry that you lived through that experience, but you are making an identity argument. You are more or less saying that unless I look and share the same experience as you do, my argument has no value. Besides, do you genuinely believe that I was never bullied in school because of I am foreign and speak English with an accent? I am not going to hold America and the system accountable because a handful of fools thought that I was somehow insufficiently American. I am confident and successful and nobody can offend me without my consent.

So when I do it, I'm making an identity argument...but when you do it by comparing EVERY policy or person you disagree with to Marxism or Socialism after what you and your family went through in Europe, that isn't the same thing?

I fully believe anyone who gave you shit in your you get years for being from foreign soil can get fucked forever, but you're making the exact kind of argument you seem to be so dead-set against.

 

[M2Dave]

It’s very hypocritical to think that Yang made good points for UBI but to completely handwave away the solutions that we’ve provided ITT. A lot of the long term end goals are one and the same.

First of all, I am not a hypocrite for the reasons that Juggs mentioned. I am fairly moderate politically, which means the ultra right on this website. LOL. Second of all, I am ready to listen to unique solutions as long as the premise is not "America is the worst country in the world." Then I know that the person is not serious.

So will enacting UBI necessarily lead to cutting Medicare, SNAP, etc or are you saying certain advocates of UBI are saying they’re for UBI “IF” we cut these other things?

Cutting certain social programs and replacing them with UBI may be financially feasible, especially as more jobs are automated as Andrew Yang has argued. In the foreseeable future, one cannot make a living if there are no jobs in an overpopulated world.

So when I do it, I'm making an identity argument...but when you do it by comparing EVERY policy or person you disagree with to Marxism or Socialism after what you and your family went through in Europe, that isn't the same thing?

I use my experience, not my identify, of living in different countries to make comparisons. There is a difference. I rarely ever use my identity to make an argument. Unfortunately, I sometimes have to add "as an immigrant" to appease the leftists considering today's politically correct environment.

 

[ItsYaBoi]

First of all, I am not a hypocrite for the reasons that Juggs mentioned. I am fairly moderate politically, which means the ultra right on this website. LOL. Second of all, I am ready to listen to unique solutions as long as the premise is not "America is the worst country in the world." Then I know that the person is not serious.



Cutting certain social programs and replacing them with UBI may be financially feasible, especially as more jobs are automated as Andrew Yang has argued. In the foreseeable future, one cannot make a living if there are no jobs in an overpopulated world.



I use my experience, not my identify, of living in different countries to make comparisons. There is a difference. I rarely ever use my identity to make an argument. Unfortunately, I sometimes have to add "as an immigrant" to appease the leftists considering today's politically correct environment.

Uhhhh he didn’t mention any reasons as to why you’re not a hypocrite - especially because I then provided the example of you earlier ITT wanting everybody to work for it - the antithesis of UBI (regardless of the reasons for why that would be, which are justified and I advocate UBI, but it goes against everything you’ve said).

I really think you have problems with reading comprehension. Either that or you’re VERY selective in what you choose to respond to.

 

[KingHippo]

Either that or you’re VERY selective in what you choose to respond to.

You're on the internet, friendo, that's literally what it's for