F Champ Receives Lifetime Ban, Racism in the FGC/USA, and Other Prevalent Social Discussions

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Well, you could have said so from the very beginning instead of pretending to be a moderate and a voice of reason in this long debate. I am still waiting for your list of solutions to fix America's irredeemable racism. At least MrApchem and Angelman have been honest about their Neo-Marxism. Why not be honest too?

Bro

Wait

I really just made like three or four posts out of five about how absurd it is to being labeled as some shit I've repeatedly said that I'm not, but you're just going to keep throwing me under the Marxist bus? AFTER I thought we were already in agreement that the two-party system is a curse and Communism is completely impractical because it relies on so many people being inherently selfless. Literally your words. But now that I've buttered your damned bread, you're going to keep trying to anchor me and the gents with these damned labels as though it makes your argument any stronger.
Let me make it as inherently crystal the fuck clear as I possibly can so that this can stop, right here, Take Two.
I, Lt. Boxy Angelman, resident Independent voter-registered political enthusiast of TYM, have never been, and will never be, a Neo-Marxist, nor do I currently identify by their ideals, or anything of the sort, as long as I have been alive, and for as long as I have left to live. I am making clear, once again, for like the third time in this thread because the Matrix is broken and we're in a fucking repeating nightmare, that I do not believe, on ANY level, that either Communism or Socialism, in any majority they'd ever be capable of capturing, would be capable of succeeding in America; not only do their inherent reliances on the willingness of the majority to think for the collective and not the individual have little to no chance of succeeding here on their own merits, but the aforementioned monolith that is the two-party system, much like with Bernie Sanders, would never let it succeed.
Please let the record make a measured note of this, so I do not have to repeat my damn self again when it comes to people using the label of something I have no practical faith in to sully my opinion and stance.

Also, I see how it's cool for you to badger @CrimsonShadow for his list, but you've had nothing to offer in the way of the names myself and @ItsYaBoi have beseeched you for of the left-wing ideologues and radicals who can account to anywhere close the amount of damage that the conservative and evangelical right have forced us to live through for longer than most of us have been alive. You've provided one, count 'em, one, person. And when I shot her down, you hit me with the "what about if they were on the right" and kept it moving.

Again...unprofessional.

 

[M2Dave]

@M2Dave you keep dodging the most important question, which sums up this entire thread -- so I'm going to ask it again.

I have explained my positions on various occasions, most recently here. The problems have been identified by every participant of this thread. I would love to hear solutions. What are yours? What are yours, @Lt. Boxy Angelman ?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I have explained my positions on various occasions, most recently here. The problems have been identified by every participant of this thread. I would love to hear solutions. What are yours? What are yours, @Lt. Boxy Angelman ?

Yeah, I read that post. And in it you make statements like this:

Another factor is the choice of majors in colleges and universities. Statistically speaking, Blacks choose majors in the social sciences that pay the lowest salaries.

So I ask you -- why? Why would people, as a race, chose careers that pay less on average? I know the answers, but I'm asking you because it's crucial to your argument.

And I'm not asking just for the sake of it; I believe if you truly want to fix any issue, you need to identify the root cause. There is no disease which you cure by treating the symptoms alone -- if you can only describe symptoms, but not identify the cause of them, you can't fix the real problems.

So if we're going to cure the 'disease' that causes stark racial and ethnic inequality in what is supposed to be the world's greatest nation, then we need to get beyond the symptoms and start talking about root causes.

And for whatever reason, this seems to be something that you're unable to discuss.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I have explained my positions on various occasions, most recently here. The problems have been identified by every participant of this thread. I would love to hear solutions. What are yours? What are yours, @Lt. Boxy Angelman ?

I've explained my positions just as much as you have. Repeatedly. Like the one where I'm not a Neo-Marxist and the one where your deflections aren't original. You want a solution? Give me a problem, I'll tell you my solution. Pick one. Pick three. I don't care. Then, you tell me how the current environment of BLM and cancel culture is worse enough than the right that you would keep smacking them over the head with the ¡Tomá! stick instead of just conceding that they're the end result of everything's that happened since the Civil Rights movement in the 60's, and not some conspiratorial left-wing agenda to finally make America a Communist nation.
Come the actual fuck on, man. You are smarter than that.
Tell me what you want me to solve, then. Bet you a dollar I can give you an answer that won't make me sound like a Marxist or throw you under the bus. Hit me with the question like a chest chop. I'm ready.

 

[M2Dave]

So I ask you -- why? Why would people, as a race, chose careers that pay less on average?

The better question is, why would any person choose a career or job that pays less on average? Thomas Sowell tackles this question and provides evidence. The following are some of the factors.

1. Culture. Different cultures have different values which are reflected in career choices. Asian Americans are over-represented in STEM. Jewish Americans are over-represented in finance. African Americans are over-represented in the NBA and the NFL. Persian Americans are over-represented in business. White Americans are over-represented in leadership positions. And so on.

2. Immigrants. Some people who have recently relocated to the United States accept low-paying jobs or careers before learning English and/or a skill. I am an example.

3. Women. Some women may choose careers that have extended vacation days because of childbearing. Women may also work part time for the same reason, which means that they earn less money.

4. Adolescents. Similar to immigrants, some teenagers who have just graduated from high school may accept low-paying jobs or careers before learning a skill. Teenagers may also work part time while attending a college or university, which means that they earn less money.

The evidence is boring and offers no political expediency to politicians. The narrative that America is a racist, sexist, and xenophobic country that oppresses everyone except rich white men is more attractive, particularly to the media. Blaming every inequity on discrimination is a massive oversimplification.

Tell me what you want me to solve, then.

How would you solve the wage gap between White and Black Americans?

 

[Professor Oak]

@M2Dave MY solution would be to hold people in power or positions of potential influence responsible for regurgitating racist thoughts. Like what you say youre against. Another solution? A revolution of Government in our country.

What a lot of the protestors want is Police Reform being a common current suggestion, but I would want changes top down, no more 80 year old racist, likely pedophile men ruling the free world. I would say people like Trump AND Biden who have made racist remarks on Television to the applause of mindless nubs, should be publicly shamed rather than rewarded.

Another solution? Abolish the two party system that lets people like you lean on these buzzword talking points. "Identity Politics?" What are you really talking about here? Saying there is documented racism that we should try to improve is a type of cop-out? Are you SURE youre not just a bigot?

 

[M2Dave]

A revolution of Government in our country.

Which type of government would replace the current one?

 

[Professor Oak]

@M2Dave A democracy with elements of socialism. Im sure thats exctly what you want to hear so you can "I told you so," me to death.

 

[jokey77]

I think it is great that the discussion now revolves around solutions! Yet I would just like to point out that there are two different approaches here:

1. Utopians: They demand a perfect system, which has never existed in human history, but which seems desirable in theory.
2. Realists: They demand a system that is recognisably feasible in practice.

By measuring the existing system against a fictitious ideal state, Utopians can criticize pretty much everything without exception as "racist", "sexist" and so on. However, as soon as only realistic solutions are allowed, such criticism seems absurd. That's because every system throughout human history was somewhat "racist", but current western democracies are so the least.

Which is better? - I myself am a realist, but I believe that society needs good-hearted dreamers (@Lt. Boxy Angelman ).

I do like the idea that we can do better than any society in human history before. It's just that many before us thought so and failed massively. Communist revolutions are the best example, especially since they probably caused the greatest suffering. That's why I personally am in favour of cautious small steps. Throughout history Realists propably caused less harm than Utopians.

 

[Professor Oak]

@M2Dave While youre laughing, give honest thought to the fact that we have elements of socialism in our society at present. Police, Firefighters, road repair, public schooling, these are paid for as a collective. I suggest we add healthcare and college, which in theory, should benefit all impoverished people as someone else has pointed out to you. The Republic aspect of our Government, in my opinion, removes Altruism. Idaho getting as much say in our President as California is absurd. The only argument I see against it is typically the country life/city life disparity, but to me, more people is more people.

 

[Marlow]

How would you solve the wage gap between White and Black Americans?

1. Invest in public schools and infrastructure, particularly in inner cities
2. Strengthen social safety nets
3. Universal Healthcare
4. Increase the bargaining power of workers by strengthening collective bargaining and grow workers’ ability to join together to increase their power to negotiate fair wages and benefits
5. Increase minimum wage
6. Require employers to report to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) what they pay their employees by job category, sex, race, and ethnicity.

The main goal of this would be to raise wages for lower and middle class families, while also providing them with a strong safety net so they are able to start to build wealth over time.

Obviously a lot of these programs are going to require bigger investments by the Government. To pay for these things I'd suggest cutting military funding and raising taxes. Currently US pays about 24% Tax Revenue to GDP ratio. Average is 34%. So I'd support raising taxes to get America back up to average, or slightly above average. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/revenue-statistics-highlights-brochure.pdf


Mostly the policies at EPI are what I would prefer. https://www.epi.org/policy/ If you'd like I'm more than happy to go over the specific policy ideas and tax ideas.

 

[Marlow]

I think it is great that the discussion now revolves around solutions! Yet I would just like to point out that there are two different approaches here:

1. Utopians: They demand a perfect system, which has never existed in human history, but which seems desirable in theory.
2. Realists: They demand a system that is recognisably feasible in practice.

That's a bit of a 10,000 foot high view. I'm just trying to be practical and suggest policy changes that I think would work, even if those changes don't work perfectly in practice.

 

[Professor Oak]

1. Invest in public schools and infrastructure, particularly in inner cities
2. Strengthen social safety nets
3. Universal Healthcare
4. Increase the bargaining power of workers by strengthening collective bargaining and grow workers’ ability to join together to increase their power to negotiate fair wages and benefits
5. Increase minimum wage
6. Require employers to report to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) what they pay their employees by job category, sex, race, and ethnicity.

The main goal of this would be to raise wages for lower and middle class families, while also providing them with a strong safety net so they are able to start to build wealth over time.

Obviously a lot of these programs are going to require bigger investments by the Government. To pay for these things I'd suggest cutting military funding and raising taxes. Currently US pays about 24% Tax Revenue to GDP ratio. Average is 34%. So I'd support raising taxes to get America back up to average, or slightly above average. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/revenue-statistics-highlights-brochure.pdf


Mostly the policies at EPI are what I would prefer. https://www.epi.org/policy/ If you'd like I'm more than happy to go over the specific policy ideas and tax ideas.

I will say, I fully agree with this as a far more practical and realistic answer. I may have been "Utopian," in my response.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I agree with everything but universal college, although it should be much cheaper and the bloated administration needs to be cut down. Lots of useless people in useless positions making college even proportionally way more expensive than it was and should be.

 

[NHDR]

I don't know American politics in-depth, but my feeling is that changing the "system" won't really do anything. Biden certainly won't be that change, he's a career politician and is white, old money just as much as Trump is. I bet they golf together and laugh about all this shit in their spare time.

Rather, what I think the U.S. should be doing is using its resources properly in order to solve problems and treat people equally.

Why is it that, for example, so much money is spent on the military, when you have cities and states in the U.S. that look like they were hit by a nuke? There's a lot of income disparity - and I think this is the root cause of all the civil unrest. And also, the things that allow people to earn a good living, such as education, are bloody expensive in the U.S. (ex. I believe it now costs $50k a year or so to attend Harvard, which is prohibitive for any race if the money is not available).

I do believe that there is a lot of racism in the U.S., but I think attributing all of these problems to racism is oversimplifying. In fact, I think there are a lot of Black people who have made a shit-ton of money and success off of the current U.S. system, and are featured very prominently in media and sports.

So I really don't think changing to communism or one of the other "isms" will really solve any problems. I don't even think communism as its supposed to apply would work in the U.S., it is impossible to undo years and years of free markets. Then again, what good is changing the system if the foundation is complete shit?

I'm using the U.S. as my example since it seems to have the most economic and cultural issues relative to its counterparts, such as Canada.

 

[Marlow]

1. Culture. Different cultures have different values which are reflected in career choices. Asian Americans are over-represented in STEM. Jewish Americans are over-represented in finance. African Americans are over-represented in the NBA and the NFL. Persian Americans are over-represented in business. White Americans are over-represented in leadership positions. And so on.

I think that's just a way to re-phrase the issue to avoid the problem. Culture normally develops based on historical experiences, so when talking about African American Culture it's almost impossible to separate out culture and avoid the impact that slavery and racism has played on that culture.

Using the word Culture makes it sound like these outcomes are inevitable and impossible to change, but I think it greatly discounts how much impact social and governmental institutions play on culture and on outcomes.

If culture is causing White Americans to be over represented at leadership levels, how do we go about correcting that? What cultural norms are causing that in the first place? How did those norms form, and how do we go about changing those?

 

[Marlow]

I agree with everything but universal college, although it should be much cheaper and the bloated administration needs to be cut down. Lots of useless people in useless positions making college even proportionally way more expensive than it was and should be.

I agree, I'm not a fan of universal college. I think college should be affordable, but not free.

 

[Professor Oak]

I agree, I'm not a fan of universal college. I think college should be affordable, but not free.

Can I ask why? You seem pretty intelligent and I trust you have good intentions in your thoughts. Personally, without scholarships I earned, I would not have been able to afford college outside of a Community College and I am just slightly below middle class. Id have to assume cost prohibits some from going or trying to go, and I guess Id like to also know what "Affordable," can mean to not just one person, but an entire country? And is education something that should be gatekept?

 

[ItsYaBoi]

@M2Dave While youre laughing, give honest thought to the fact that we have elements of socialism in our society at present. Police, Firefighters, road repair, public schooling, these are paid for as a collective. I suggest we add healthcare and college, which in theory, should benefit all impoverished people as someone else has pointed out to you. The Republic aspect of our Government, in my opinion, removes Altruism. Idaho getting as much say in our President as California is absurd. The only argument I see against it is typically the country life/city life disparity, but to me, more people is more people.

He won't respond to this. Or if he does, he will manage to completely ignore what you say.

Aspects of socialism are already integrated. Most of them work fantastically. I say most because there's the police force in the US. But their failing isn't down to democratic socialism, rather them being an institution hijacked by white supremacists*.

*Source (FBI): http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infiltration.pdf

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I agree, I'm not a fan of universal college. I think college should be affordable, but not free.

I think the stigma behind needing a college education for a worthwhile career needs to be dropped too. Telling kids who hate school they need to go to college to make something of themselves is insane. There are a lot of trades that offer fulfilling and well paying jobs, instead of spreading the idea that not going to college makes you dumb or lazy or something, people should be educated on all types of careers. I always wanted a career from college but I know a lot of my friends would have been happier if they wouldn't have gone and would have just entered a trade or apprenticeship to build up to the job they want.

 

[Marlow]

Can I ask why? You seem pretty intelligent and I trust you have good intentions in your thoughts. Personally, without scholarships I earned, I would not have been able to afford college outside of a Community College and I am just slightly below middle class. Id have to assume cost prohibits some from going or trying to go, and I guess Id like to also know what "Affordable," can mean to not just one person, but an entire country? And is education something that should be gatekept?

I want anyone who wants to go to college, or some form of higher education, to be able to afford that opportunity. So some type of federal grant, student loan program with payment forgiveness just in case, combined with lower college costs and a plethora of college options would be ideal. Obviously there's a lot that needs to happen to get all of that set up.

The reason I'm against simply making it free is because when you make something free you're going to end up with a lot of people using it just because it's there, and not necessarily because it's what they actually want. I think college is great, but it's also not for everyone. A lot of people drop out of college because it might simply not be for them.

This somewhat explains my reasoning: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/01/29/170583430/episode-432-the-price-of-free-breast-pumps

When you take the price out of things, it can cause people to act less rationally.

 

[Professor Oak]

I want anyone who wants to go to college, or some form of higher education, to be able to afford that opportunity. So some type of federal grant, student loan program with payment forgiveness just in case, combined with lower college costs and a plethora of college options would be ideal. Obviously there's a lot that needs to happen to get all of that set up.

The reason I'm against simply making it free is because when you make something free you're going to end up with a lot of people using it just because it's there, and not necessarily because it's what they actually want. I think college is great, but it's also not for everyone. A lot of people drop out of college because it might simply not be for them.

This somewhat explains my reasoning: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/01/29/170583430/episode-432-the-price-of-free-breast-pumps

When you take the price out of things, it can cause people to act less rationally.

Well, I can see that reasoning. I didnt listen yet, I cant currently listen to any audio. But I understand the analogy. My only antithesis is other requirements or rules that are not money related being practical enough. And maybe the amount of people abusing the system would be high, maybe classrooms would be over filled with people unsure if its for them, maybe the government would have to pay too many teachers further increasing taxes and the like, but if everyone had a semester of social psych or philosophy, maybe we wouldnt have to yell at people who fundamentally misunderstand the human condition.

Idk, I am guilty of the Utopian argument presented by Jokey. Im trying to see more realistically, but Im too dumb.

 

[Marlow]

I mean, at the same time maybe we decide it's worth it. There's certainly an argument to be made that even if making college free is inefficient that it's worth it in the long run to give the most people possible a chance at a college education.

Any policy decision is going to have positive and negative consequences, sometimes even unintended consequences. I think it's best to try and be honest about what we expect those consequences to be, and decide whether it's worth it or not.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

How would you solve the wage gap between White and Black Americans?

Oooooh. That's a good one.

Four immediate things come to mind:
-Raise the minimum wages from state to state to a height that properly reflects the inflation adjustments of the last 40 years.
-Free community college and student debt forgiveness, so people can be educated without fear of under the debt of their pursuit forever.
-Legalize and decriminalize pot nationwide, so black people can stop having their lives ruined over simple drug charges and stay on the board long enough to actually affect the wage gap.
-A complete rehaul of the American educational system, which if I had it my day would start with putting Betsy DeVos in a box and mailing her to Abu Dhabi.

I will give more detail as the day goes on, but I am just waking up and filling myself with coffee.

Also, pay for it by taxing the ultra-wealthy. I don't believe in redistribution of wealth across the board; I do, however, believe there's no fucking reason on Earth that people like Jeff Bezos and the like should be allowed to hoard more wealth than any person/people in recent modern history. Tax the ultra-rich. Tax them up, down and sideways. Make it illegal for them to make money in America without paying their goddamn taxes if you have to. Talk about unprofessional? The way the political powers of this country, mostly Republican, have let it become an oligarchy wearing the recently severed face of a democracy is the most offensive and unforgivable act of unprofessionalism I've ever seen in my life.

Also, I think it's only fair that if Dave can unofficially trademark the word "Fool," that I call dibs on the word "Unprofessional" from this point forward. Let the record show that this word is part of the Boxy lexicon now.

Anyway, more on how I would lessen the wage gap to come.

 

[Professor Oak]

Anyone wanna talk about Pizza Gate and how its increasingly obvious that the USA is like the Gotham of Earth?

Edit: Except with more child sexing