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F Champ Receives Lifetime Ban, Racism in the FGC/USA, and Other Prevalent Social Discussions

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I think you're misunderstanding what people actually mean. Each one of these issues is connected to racism. No one is saying that there is no personal responsibility.. But you're not asking yourself the obvious question. Which is:

"Are African-Americans somehow just genetically lazier, less morally inclined, or just don't want to be parents, or just like money less then people of a different skin color?"

And if the answer is "no" (and, for anyone who's not racist, I'm hoping the answer is 'no'), then you have to ask yourself why a people who are not genetically predisposed to be any lazier or less loving or more immoral than people with skin of a different color would be behind in certain areas statistically.

And the answer is, and will always be, that that's what happens when you rip people from their motherland, subject them to hundreds of years of slavery, divide their families, beat or kill them if they learn to read and write, use the women for concubines, then 'free' them but don't allow them into schools, restaurants, public facilities, hang them or burn their towns down if they complain, don't let them vote, then later move out when they move in, leave the schools when they're finally allowed to attend them, take the resources out of their neighborhoods so that prosperous and thriving metropolitain areas like Detroit and Oakland become absolute wastelands, constantly harass them with police just for walking or driving a car or existing, etc.

Racism IS the reason. You can run as much as you want, and you can try to take circles around it, but you can't get away from it.
This is by far the best post you have made in this thread. I haven’t really had the time to be as engaging as I wanna be in here, but I do read most of the responses and you nailed it here.

Also, side note, I hope the title change is acceptable. If not, let me know please. This goes for everyone else as well.
 

mrapchem

Noob
Because in America there's a disproportionate amount of wealth and power concentrated among white people.

https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2016/demo/wealth/wealth-asset-ownership.html

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/08/for-the-fifth-time-in-a-row-the-new-congress-is-the-most-racially-and-ethnically-diverse-ever/




I don't think that's true. We know that things like racism can impact things like poverty, but that doesn't mean all black people who are poor are only because of racism. There's always a place for personal responsibility. But at the same time I don't think it's wise to use personal responsibility as a way to put on blinders to systemic issues.
Could you say all that again for the people in the back please?
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

WHEN IS GOD
If there is any personal responsibility discussion to be had, you, MrApchem, and Angelman have certainly made no mentions or arguments.
I've brought up the need for personal responsibility repeatedly in my responses.
As I've brought up repeatedly my want for you to answer to those statements you made almost two weeks ago, trying to equate the heads and ambitions of cancel culture, BLM, and the "radical left" you keep referring to yet refuse to specify, to the last 20 years of conservative and far-right tactics that have culminated in our simultaneously facing down the biggest health crisis, and the biggest civil unrest crisis in modern history, with Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell at the head of the ship. And they're doing what they do while the likes of Fox News, OAN, and every other right-wing news outlet perpetuating their agenda and drawing attention away from what's important with fake scandals like the Confederate statues coming down.
You keep making it sound like the kind of people who've given rise to movements that have FINALLY put the public spotlight permanently of the problems people of color face in America can be fairly compared to that as far as large groups of people whose controversial and outspoken opinions have had negative effects on society or our lives at large. Or that people getting behind a precedent where we'll have some measure of accountability instead of "I'll just act a fool now and feign forgiveness later because free speech" is a bad thing. That's what I see when you keep talking about liberals and the left as though they or their ideas are such a terrible idea; in comparison to the veils we have seen pulled over people's heads by the conservative right of America, I don't see how a person could be so upset at one without acknowledging the sins of the other. I'm not saying they both don't have their own problems; of course they do, it would be foolish to assume otherwise.
I'm saying there is no comparison on any level to what we've seen in only the build of the last 6 or 7 years with BLM, the #MeToo movement, the debate over cancel culture and specifically to us the people in the FGC who've been felled by it, and all those things we've discussed that have sprung from the left, and the decades' worth of bigotry we've had to see come from the right. So maybe you can see more clearly now how comparing the last few years of self-defense from generations of voices of all colors and sizes, to how the last 50-60 years of conservative and far-right ideology and what it's shaped this country into, doesn't really strike me as a fair comparison.

Also, you dodge my questions and responses like the Floyd Mayweather of TYM. I'm not even mad about it. You would make a great politician. But on a municipal/city level, so you don't lose your soul trying to keep pace with the beasts of Washington. I would vote for you, 100%.
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
@M2Dave Do you recognize the 400 years of oppression of Black People in the USA? Do you know that it "ended," less than 60 years ago? How do you rationalize that having zero affect on people today? Do you not realize that people supporting the ideals of that era still exist and have taught their children to do and think the same?

Someone said were acting like the whole country is Mississippi Burning, but ay, some of us live pretty fucking close to Mississippi and its not great out here.

Ironic on-topic point, where I live is both HEAVILY racist and Red. Figure that shit out.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Just going to quote this from Marlow's link, as many people obviously didn't read it.
Seems like a lot of that is going around, especially if you're just gonna ignore what I posted.

This response letter seems to have completely missed the point of the original letter. It doesn't even seem at argue against the ideals of the letter, just dismissing it as unimportant, claiming it undermines their cause and then assumes that their own argument is "persuasive".

If you want to actually look at some of the original letters signatories' arguments instead discrediting it based off a couple signatures, look at my previous comment or check out this video.

Ignore the click baity title, hosts do a good job of asking him about some of these particular criticisms

 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Clearly, poor Whites do not fall into this category - they are marginalized people that deserve our sympathy, our collective defense as well as policies to directly pull them out of poverty. Just like every other marginalized person in this country.
According to proponents of identity politics, I guess I am permitted to comment on poor white people considering that I am white and that I was poor when I migrated to the United States. Even as someone who is sometimes mistaken for being Latino because of my real name and accent, nobody in power has ever marginalized me, my family, or my friends in this country, which does not mean that I have never encountered prejudiced individuals. You cannot control ignorant thoughts, ideas, and opinions that people have in their heads,. The reality is that the American system is evidently imperfect, yet it is the best one that humanity has invented, which does not mean that progress should cease. However, playing identity and racial politics, which is what every single person aside from a handful has done in this thread, is a step backward, not forward. If you dislike far-right identity politics, why support far-left identity politics? I respect you for offering solutions while others are hiding behind their socialist and Neo-marxist tendencies.

Because in America there's a disproportionate amount of wealth and power concentrated among white people.
Yes, because of math. Caucasians make up America's racial majority.
 

mrapchem

Noob
According to proponents of identity politics, I guess I am permitted to comment on poor white people considering that I am white and that I was poor when I migrated to the United States. Even as someone who is sometimes mistaken for being Latino because of my real name and accent, nobody in power has ever marginalized me, my family, or my friends in this country, which does not mean that I have never encountered prejudiced individuals. You cannot control ignorant thoughts, ideas, and opinions that people have in their heads,. The reality is that the American system is evidently imperfect, yet it is the best one that humanity has invented, which does not mean that progress should cease. However, playing identity and racial politics, which is what every single person aside from a handful has done in this thread, is a step backward, not forward. I respect you for offering solutions while others are hiding behind their socialist and Neo-marxist tendencies.



Yes, because of math. Caucasians make up America's racial majority.
Your individual experience does not translate to the collective experiences of poor Whites in this country. Likewise, your individual experience as an American that was born beyond the shores not only doesn't compare to other Americans that have been here their entire lives, it doesn't even compare to other people that took your path.

REO correctly made this point to you in the podcast about your positive tournament experiences not being the standard for everyone else - I'm making the exact same point now.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

WHEN IS GOD
According to proponents of identity politics, I guess I am permitted to comment on poor white people considering that I am white and that I was poor when I migrated to the United States. Even as someone who is sometimes mistaken for being Latino because of my real name and accent, nobody in power has ever marginalized me, my family, or my friends in this country, which does not mean that I have never encountered prejudiced individuals. You cannot control ignorant thoughts, ideas, and opinions that people have in their heads,. The reality is that the American system is evidently imperfect, yet it is the best one that humanity has invented, which does not mean that progress should cease. However, playing identity and racial politics, which is what every single person aside from a handful has done in this thread, is a step backward, not forward. If you dislike far-right identity politics, why support far-left identity politics? I respect you for offering solutions while others are hiding behind their socialist and Neo-marxist tendencies.
You also do a hell of a job hanging titles in people without having any certainty as to what they believe in its entirety instead of just pertaining to particular topics.
Imagine if I was a pro-life, pro-gun, small government churchgoer or even a pastor, who also believed in racial equality, police reform, and accountability on a widespread scale, how confused I would be being lumped in with these supposed socialists and Neo-Marxists, while the person arguing against my points resorts to name-slinging and blowing off the people asking him serious questions, just because of what he ASSUMES they represent.

But that's not at all a prejudiced assumption to make in itself, no.
That's me on my liberal Ideologue bullshit.

:coffee: .
 
Yes, because of math. Caucasians make up America's racial majority.
Do you really believe this is why? I mean logically shouldnt the fact that they came here, stole the land from natives, literally made laws to make sure they maintained the wealth, slavery, all that, you don't think thats why??? Those types of things dont just go away when you decide to get rid of the aunt Jemima logo, they have lasting effects.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Yes, because of math. Caucasians make up America's racial majority.
That's not actually what the tables were showing.

Check out Table 4, "Percent Distribution of Household Net Worth, by Amount of Net Worth and Selected Characteristic". The amount of "Black alone" had 28.4% living with a negative or $0 Net worth. White alone was 13.5%. At the other end of the spectrum White Only in the $500K+ category was 24.1%. Black Only was 5%.

Or look at the Mean Value for households on Table 5. Average white family: $327K of Net Worth. Average black family: $102K.

These wealth statistics aren't sums, majority has nothing to do with it.


As far as the political power goes, minorities make up 22% of the House and Senate reps, but non-whites make up 39% of the population. That's why I say it's disproportional. You can also look at analysis done on CEO's and board members for Fortune 500 companies, similar disparities exist there as well.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
...it doesn't even compare to other people that took your path.
Statistically speaking, Slavic Americans perform very well in America although many are destitute in Eastern Europe. I can discuss why they are successful in America although I am certain that you would attribute their success to their whiteness. LOL. The rest of your argument, and almost all of your arguments in general, can be summed up as "You did not live through this experience so your opinion is irrelevant."

Do you really believe this is why? I mean logically shouldnt the fact that they came here, stole the land from natives, literally made laws to make sure they maintained the wealth, slavery, all that, you don't think thats why??? Those types of things dont just go away when you decide to get rid of the aunt Jemima logo, they have lasting effects.
I agree with the effects, but if you study history, conquering, killing, stealing, etc. is not unique to white people.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Statistically speaking, Slavic Americans perform very well in America although many are destitute in Eastern Europe. I can discuss why they are successful in America although I am certain that you would attribute their success to their whiteness. LOL.
No one is saying that people are successful because they are white. People are, however, pointing out that there are far less social, logistical and environmental hurdles to success that are placed in the way of white people in America on average, and that it's been that way for 400 years.

Your way of not dealing with the issue is to constantly misrepresent what people are saying the issue is. But it looks like the entire thread is onto you by this point.

Don't be a 'fool' :coffee:
 

mrapchem

Noob
Statistically speaking, Slavic Americans perform very well in America although many are destitute in Eastern Europe. I can discuss why they are successful in America although I am certain that you would attribute their success to their whiteness. LOL. The rest of your argument, and almost all of your arguments in general, can be summed up as "You did not live through this experience so your opinion is irrelevant."



If you study history, conquering, killing, stealing, etc. is not unique to white people.
Yet Slavic Americans are not the poor Whites that I was talking about in my post about marginalized people. Your experience does not translate to theirs. For that matter, neither does mine.

And neither I nor anybody else has stated that your life experience somehow makes your opinion irrelevant. We said that your personal experience as an American does not match the general trend of collective groups of people, especially those that are Black in this country. You seem to completely misunderstand this fundamental point.
 
I agree with the effects, but if you study history, conquering, killing, stealing, etc. is not unique to white people.
That was not the point that was made or that anybody is making. We are making the point that when you take the history into account, the history that has had long term effects of which you agree to, then the fact that there is a larger white population is only a very small portion of the underlying reason and therefore is not an answer as to why this is occurring. If you agree with the effects then can you take a step further then and understand why math isn't the sole answer?
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
You also do a hell of a job hanging titles in people without having any certainty as to what they believe in its entirety instead of just pertaining to particular topics.
I think I have a very good idea where most people in this thread stand on the political spectrum and what they believe.

We said that your personal experience as an American does not match the general trend of collective groups of people, especially those that are Black in this country.
Which means what exactly?

If you agree with the effects then can you take a step further then and understand why math isn't the sole answer?
I agree that math is not the sole answer. Neither is racism.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I agree that math is not the sole answer. Neither is racism.
Another false dichotomy. This is not math vs. racism. The mathematical effects of systemic oppression are evident. In fact, you posted two pieces of research in this thread yourself that both make that case, without reading the evidence.

You can't escape the effects of slavery and racism when you look at the math. No matter where you turn, they are present.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Statistically speaking, Slavic Americans perform very well in America although many are destitute in Eastern Europe. I can discuss why they are successful in America although I am certain that you would attribute their success to their whiteness.
My guess is they're successful because they started immigrating before WWI, worked hard, and have had several generations to build wealth and climb the economic and social ladder. Also they likely didn't face some of the barriers that other ethnic groups have faced.
 
I agree that math is not the sole answer. Neither is racism.
So then what exactly are you saying now since you understand math isn't the sole reason? That a larger white population on top of the negative effects of african american history are the reason for the disproportionate wealth? Honestly though I could make a very good argument that racism is the answer but before that I want to properly understand exactly what you are saying because right now I don't.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
@M2Dave allow me to show you how ridiculous you sound.

Person: "We need to deal with COVID, it's one of the biggest problems we face as nation"

Dave: "Yes, but not ALL people who die are dying from COVID"

Person: "No one is saying that all US deaths are from COVID. But we need to fix the issue, and we need to wear masks"

Dave: "Nobody in my family died from COVID. We are all fine. There is no need for anybody to wear a mask"

Person: "Yes, but plenty of others have died from COVID. We've lost 135,000 US citizens so far"

Dave: "They probably had other preexisting health conditions. They should have taken better care of their health"

Person: "This doesn't change the fact that we need to deal with a deadly, active epidemic which is on the upswing in our country"

Dave: "You are a liberal. Liberals are always making a big issue out of COVID"

Person: Jumps out the window from frustration

Dave: "Well he didn't die from COVID; see, proof that we don't need masks"
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Another false dichotomy. This is not math vs. racism. The mathematical effects of systemic oppression are evident. In fact, you posted two pieces of research in this thread yourself that both make that case, without reading the evidence.

You can't escape the effects of slavery and racism when you look at the math. No matter where you turn, they are present.
MrApchem has shared his solutions to combat racism and address major issues such as the wage gap. I would love to know what your solutions are. Please go ahead and list them.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

WHEN IS GOD
I think I have a very good idea where most people in this thread stand on the political spectrum and what they believe.
If lumping the people you disagree with in this thread under titles like Neo-Marxist and making your own personal assumptions on where you think they stand and what you think they believe doesn't strike you as a problem, then I really don't know what to tell you.
You don't know people like me or others in this debate from a ham sandwich, but you feel it's okay to make simple assumptioms over such complicated matters? And you and Fake Ben Shapiro keep trying to box me in (ha, Box Humor) to this space as some far-left radical to discredit me in the eyes of anyone near the center or otherwise, but you do so having literally no idea what's actually in my heart or the path behind me outside of one thread, in which I have typed MANY words explaining myself, my beliefs, and the differences between myself and the stereotype you keep trying to make me into? Come on, man.

I think I'm going to have some well-needed Bacardi and chicken and sit this one out for a little while, because I am dizzy in a way that only poultry and Puerto Rican rum can fix.
 

mrapchem

Noob
Which means what exactly?
Which means that you are not qualified to speak on the Black community's issues, nor decry that racism isn't a major source of their disparities in this country, especially since you won't undergo a scintilla of research on the effects of institutional racism, both past and present.

Any time someone posts data or list specific examples that counter the narrative of your experience, you bypass them with either "identity politics", "racism", "liberal" or "cancel culture" in your retort.

Frankly, as others have noted, you haven't been good at summarizing peoples' arguments in this thread either. You've built an entire army of strawmen out of peoples' statements, apparently not even bothering to read the minutia of what they've posted, likely because it conflicts with your lived experience. In this thread, you have made a habit of dramatically oversimplifying peoples' statements and points and shoe-horning them into your liberal/conservative dichotomy.

You can stop at any point.


Make no mistake - I'm not trying to attack you. You're an NRS FCG O.G. whom I respect highly not only for your dedication to zoning, but your commitment to taking bold, contrarian stances on things, even at the risk of being wrong.

But, I am telling you: on this issue, you are dead-wrong. You have not informed yourself of the numerous instances of historical and current marginalization of various people in this country - you substitute your individual personal experience for their collective ones. That is folly.
 
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