F Champ Receives Lifetime Ban, Racism in the FGC/USA, and Other Prevalent Social Discussions

[M2Dave]

...but you do so having literally no idea what's actually in my heart...

I am sorry that you feel this way. I am not ignoring your posts as I have been reading them all. Unfortunately, I see more of the same rhetoric that I see from Crimson's and MrApchem's posts.

I will stop labeling people politically when people stop engaging in identity politics and telling people to shut up if they do not belong to a certain group of people. We all dislike white identity politics from the far right. So why are we accepting identity politics from the far left?

 

[MrArcher15]

@M2Dave can you answer the question I asked you please?

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I am sorry that you feel this way. I am not ignoring your posts as I have been reading them all. Unfortunately, I see more of the same rhetoric that I see from Crimson's and MrApchem's posts.

I will stop labeling people politically when people stop engaging in identity politics and telling people to shut up if they do not belong to a certain group of people. We all dislike white identity politics from the far right. So why are we accepting identity politics from the far left?

Because wanting black lives to matter and shitty people to be held accountable shouldn't have to have anything to do with identity politics. And because you yourself are the one currently engaging in them the most by trying to throw the left under the bus repeatedly, while also refusing to acknowledge how much bigger a problem doing everything by identity and policy has been on the right. BLM and the cancel culture aren't the decades-long effort to reshape the sociological makeup of America of the right, nor are they the anarchist extreme outcome that people seem to believe is what comes from listening to the left; they are, as I've said before, the eventual result of a generations-long group of the disenfranchised and unheard refusing to be ignored anymore.

 

[mrapchem]

Because wanting black lives to matter and shitty people to be held accountable shouldn't have to have anything to do with identity politics. And because you yourself are the one currently engaging in them the most by trying to throw the left under the bus repeatedly, while also refusing to acknowledge how much bigger a problem doing everything by identity and policy has been on the right. BLM and the cancel culture aren't the decades-long effort to reshape the sociological makeup of America of the right, nor are they the anarchist extreme outcome that people seem to believe is what comes from listening to the left; they are, as I've said before, the eventual result of a generations-long group of the disenfranchised and unheard refusing to be ignored anymore.

Do you see what I'm saying??? Didn't I make this read already?

 

[M2Dave]

So then what exactly are you saying now since you understand math isn't the sole reason? That a larger white population on top of the negative effects of african american history are the reason for the disproportionate wealth? Honestly though I could make a very good argument that racism is the answer but before that I want to properly understand exactly what you are saying because right now I don't.

As I have stated before, history has consequences. Anybody who denies the consequences would be foolish. Racism is one of a multitude of factors that explains the wage gap among Blacks and Whites. Another factor is that while Blacks have made tremendous progress, Whites have never stopped acquiring wealth so the wealth gap remains consistent. Another factor is the choice of majors in colleges and universities. Statistically speaking, Blacks choose majors in the social sciences that pay the lowest salaries. Asians choose majors in STEM, which is science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, that pay the highest salaries. Whites fall in between. Another factor is single-parent households, which are statistically almost always poor across all races. Blacks have the highest percentage while Asians have the lowest percentage. Whites fall in between. Single-parent households have been increasing for all races for the past 50 to 60 years, but interestingly the percentage for Blacks was less than 20% in the 1940s. The number has more than tripled since the 1960s. One would logically assume that the number would be higher before the Civil Rights movement, but the number was substantially lower.

None of the aforementioned reasons have anything to do with Blacks being inferior to Whites and Asians. They have obviously not been dealt the best cards. Many aspects such as slavery and historical oppression and discrimination are beyond their control while some others are such as the major you choose in college and whether you decide to have a baby out of wedlock. So there is a combination of racism and personal decisions. To blame everything on racism (or personal decisions) would be a gross oversimplification of a highly complex economical and social issue.

Because wanting black lives to matter and shitty people to be held accountable shouldn't have to have anything to do with identity politics. And because you yourself are the one currently engaging in them the most by trying to throw the left under the bus repeatedly, while also refusing to acknowledge how much bigger a problem doing everything by identity and policy has been on the right. BLM and the cancel culture aren't the decades-long effort to reshape the sociological makeup of America of the right, nor are they the anarchist extreme outcome that people seem to believe is what comes from listening to the left; they are, as I've said before, the eventual result of a generations-long group of the disenfranchised and unheard refusing to be ignored anymore.

First of all, nobody has ever stated that black lives did not matter.

Second of all, the movement Black Lives Matter is a Neo-Marxist movement. Not according to me, yet according to one of the co-founders.

If you asked the founders for solutions, of which the official website offers none in terms of policies, they would most certainly look no different than MrApchem's list from several pages ago. You would see massive wealth distribution programs as well as egalitarian policies that force equality of outcome.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

First of all, nobody has ever stated that black lives did not matter.

Second of all, the movement Black Lives Matter is a Neo-Marxist movement. Not according to me, yet according to one of the co-founders.

If you asked the founders for solutions, of which the official website offers none in terms of policies, they would most certainly look no different than MrApchem's list from several pages ago. You would see massive wealth distribution programs as well as egalitarian policies.

It started by a Neo-Marxist. Doesn't mean her beliefs and her party lines apply to everyone who believes in the movement or its merits.

 

[mrapchem]

I'll just leave this here:

 

[M2Dave]

It started by a Neo-Marxist. Doesn't mean her beliefs and her party lines apply to everyone who believes in the movement or its merits.

Oh please!

If the movement had hypothetically been started by a person on the far right, the person as well as the movement would have been canceled instantly.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Oh please!

If the movement had hypothetically been started by a person on the far right, the person as well as the movement would have been canceled instantly.

In what world would the far right ever start a movement of any capacity for people of color?
Also, doesn't negate my point. Abraham Lincoln started the Republican Party; look at what's become of that party since. JK Rowling wrote the Harry Potter stories; how many people have now disowned her completely from her work because of her transphobic views, who still hold those stories in the highest regard? It makes no sense to damn the entire microcosm of people and the ideals they're defending and perpetuating, which often have absolutely NOTHING to do with Neo-Marxism and EVERYTHING to do with the future of black people in America and around the world, all because of the person who started the fire. Also, you're contradicting your own words about cancel culture and how singular cases shouldn't have blanket effects on the entirety of groups; like how Mike Z perving up Bunny's inbox shouldn't have been a reflection on ALL men, which you yourself accused me of trying to make it, one person's beliefs shouldn't speak for everyone under their umbrella as far as BLM or the fight for equality is concerned.

 

[mrapchem]

Oh please!

If the movement had hypothetically been started by a person on the far right, the person as well as the movement would have been canceled instantly.

Because perhaps far-right ideology has been historically anti-Black????

Again, my point(s) keep on being proved time and time again.

 

[mrapchem]

In what world would the far right ever start a movement of any capacity for people of color?
Also, doesn't negate my point. Abraham Lincoln started the Republican Party; look at what's become of that party since. JK Rowling wrote the Harry Potter stories; how many people have now disowned her completely from her work because of her transphobic views, who still hold those stories in the highest regard? It makes no sense to damn the entire microcosm of people and the ideals they're defending and perpetuating, which often have absolutely NOTHING to do with Neo-Marxism and EVERYTHING to do with the future of black people in America and around the world, all because of the person who started the fire. Also, you're contradicting your own words about cancel culture and how singular cases shouldn't have blanket effects on the entirety of groups; like how Mike Z perving up Bunny's inbox shouldn't have been a reflection on ALL men, one person's beliefs shouldn't speak for everyone under their umbrella as far as BLM or the fight for equality is concerned.

Let's not even focus on this new Marxist-angle, as it's a piss-poor diversion from the main point.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Let's not even focus on this new Marxist-angle, as it's a piss-poor diversion from the main point.

Nah. I mean yeah for sure, but also nah. I've been waiting almost two weeks for this man to finally address the topic I've been knocking on his door with, and I genuinely want to hear all he has to say about it so we can set this shit right and in stone for the rest of forever. I don't mind us all having differing opinions because that's what makes this debate fire, but I'm tired to death of people labeling me and making silly assumptions because of where I stand on certain things. Like when I had @MrArcher15 fucked up because I thought he was saying something he totally wasn't, and I felt like a dick because it was like I was defeating my own p purpose. This is an opportunity for all of us who are of this state of mind and love to be part of this kind of conversation to get all the way on the same page, so we can carry on future debates like this without having each other fucked up.

 

[M2Dave]

...one person's beliefs shouldn't speak for everyone under their umbrella...

Of course not, unless the person signed Harper's Letter, in which case the document is insignificant because of one signer's perspective on transgender individuals.

Let's not even focus on this new Marxist-angle, as it's a piss-poor diversion from the main point.

Diversion? How so? Just because you subscribe to a Neo-Marxist platform does not mean that most Americans do.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Of course not, unless the person signed Harper's Letter, in which case the document is insignificant because of one signer's perspective on transgender individuals.


Diversion? How so? Just because you subscribe to a Neo-Marxist platform does not mean that most Americans do.

You're doing it again. The diversionary tactics and hanging titles and actions over people. In case you don't remember, I said the letter sounded as on point as a letter could sound as far as its' subject matter and not the views of the night people who signed it, so...that was/this is me not at all in any way saying the letter is insignificant for those reasons.

 

[mrapchem]

Of course not, unless the person signed Harper's Letter, in which case the document is insignificant because of one signer's perspective on transgender individuals.



Diversion? How so? Just because you subscribe to a Neo-Marxist platform does not mean that most Americans do.

It's a diversion because you're trying to undermine the movement(and the statement by proxy) by classifying it as some kind of 'other' - as a response to Lt. Boxy correctly noting that saying that 'black lives matter' is not and shouldn't be considered "identity politics".

The mere fact that you have to try to discredit the movement and statement demonstrates our collective point for everyone to see.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

It's a diversion because you're trying to undermine the movement(and the statement by proxy) by classifying it as some kind of 'other' - as a response to Lt. Boxy correctly noting that saying that 'black lives matter' is not and shouldn't be considered "identity politics".

The mere fact that you have to try to discredit the movement and statement demonstrates our collective point for everyone to see.

Hard for me not to agree with this. I keep waiting to get my socks knocked off with counterpoints and knowledge, but it just isn't happening.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

As I have stated before, history has consequences. Anybody who denies the consequences would be foolish. Racism is one of a multitude of factors that explains the wage gap among Blacks and Whites. Another factor is that while Blacks have made tremendous progress, Whites have never stopped acquiring wealth so the wealth gap remains consistent. Another factor is the choice of majors in colleges and universities. Statistically speaking, Blacks choose majors in the social sciences that pay the lowest salaries. Asians choose majors in STEM, which is science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, that pay the highest salaries. Whites fall in between. Another factor is single-parent households, which are statistically almost always poor across all races. Blacks have the highest percentage while Asians have the lowest percentage. Whites fall in between. Single-parent households have been increasing for all races for the past 50 to 60 years, but interestingly the percentage for Blacks was less than 20% in the 1940s. The number has more than tripled since the 1960s. One would logically assume that the number would be higher before the Civil Rights movement, but the number was substantially lower.

Dude.

You're now repeating old points that have been debunked 3-4x in this thread. Let's go through these one at a time.

"Choice of majors" -- well, do you think it's that African-Americans just hate math and science, or don't like high salaries? Or is it likely that the failing public school system in America, which is worst in poor and minority areas, doesn't adequately prepare people for success in math and science? That African-Americans historically weren't even allowed to read or write English during slavery, leading to lower literacy rates after slavery? And that systemic racism pushed a message for decades after slavery that African-Americans weren't fit for higher-salary careers, but were fit for menial-labor-type jobs? I can tell you which.

Look at examples like Katherine Johnson, one of the most important mathematicians at NASA during the heyday of the space program, who was forced into a low-pay "colored computing pool" at NASA and had to fight to be recognized for the technologist position she deserved (which was unheard of for minorities at the time). Then consider if you really think people just didn't want those jobs.

"Single Parent Households" -- We already covered the fact that single parent househoulds have increased 3x for African-Americans since the mid 60s, while single-parent households for Caucasians have increased TENFOLD since that time. So you can't attempt to isolate one increase from the other, when it's clearly a general trend statistically. As for why they were higher already in the 60s, you already posted two links yourself that answer that question -- slavery systematically destroyed the African-American household and attempted to ruin the concept of the African-African american family. And it takes time to pick up those pieces; it's not something that happens instantaneously. But statistics show that the percentage of African-American vs. Causasian single-parent housholds are trending closer together year by year.

You're jumping back to poorly-constructed talking points we've already covered, which is what trolls do. I'd like to think you're not trolling, but it seems like it when you approach things this way.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I really wish I had to means to pod. I would love for there to be more discussion about stuff like this. In the absence of majors and it being the most important election year in maybe ever, filling the empty time by getting the collective knowledge up and making our community wiser and stronger in the wake of all this scandal.
No better a time for it.

(Someone make a pod and invite me, please, it'll be fun)
((We can yell about healthcare, and geopolitical referendums, and why Kitana should have Fan Combos in at least one tournament variation))

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I just want to reiterate this point about Katherine Johnson. In the 1960s, it was unusual for African-Americans to be hired for engineer positions, even if they were more than qualified. That's 50-60 years ago, which is less than one person's average lifetime.

It took until the mid-sixties for African-Americans to be able to attend all the same schools and universities that Caucasians could. Because even after Brown vs. the Board of Education passed. many schools just refused to implement it.

So that means my grandmothers and grandfathers did not grow up in a world where they were allowed to go to college with everyone else, or where they would have been seriously considered to be engineers, mathematicians, scientists, etc. That's right -- the people who raised my parents. They could get neither the same education nor the same jobs.

That is why when someone makes a ridiculous claim like implying that African-Americans just don't want to be scientists and engineers, it is clear that they don't understand the context of that statement. And this is why other people will tell them that they're incapable of understanding the experience of African-Americans in the US.

 

[M2Dave]

You're jumping back to poorly-constructed talking points we've already covered, which is what trolls do. I'd like to think you're not trolling, but it seems like it when you approach things this way.

The feeling is mutual. I would like to believe that I am the one who is being trolled. In all of the 42 pages of this thread, you have established a link between racism and every single issue, from A to Z, that troubles some African-American communities. I have asked for solutions of which you have offered none. At least MrApchem has. You have defended Neo-Marxism on various occasions. You claim you advocate accountability, personal responsibility, and decision making, yet these concepts are completely absent in your posts in favor of a simplified "America is a racist country in every way" analysis. You and I live in entirely different realities.

And this is why other people will tell them that they're incapable of understanding the experience of African-Americans in the US.

Another "If you are not black, please shut up unless you agree" identity-based argument that is unacceptable in any honest debate. I would never attempt to silence anyone based on my experience as an immigrant.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

The feeling is mutual. I would like to believe that I am the one who is being trolled. In all of the 42 pages of this thread, you have established a link between racism and every single issue, from A to Z, that troubles some African-American communities. I have asked for solutions of which you have offered none. At least MrApchem has. You have defended Neo-Marxism on various occasions. You claim you advocate accountability, personal responsibility, and decision making, yet these concepts are completely absent in your posts in favor of a simplified "America is a racist country in every way" analysis. You and I live in entirely different realities.

Maaaaaaaan.
You claim to not believe in blanketing entire groups under the mistakes of a small and select few, yet you lump your critics together almost every other post.
At least Crimson's reality makes sense. And if I challenged him on something absurd he'd said, he'd have a whole ass two and a half pages ready to defend his point like a fortress, without having to throw in the whataboutisms and the "everyone who disagrees with me is a this or that" strategy. It's unprofessional.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The feeling is mutual. I would like to believe that I am the one who is being trolled. In all of the 42 pages of this thread, you have established a link between racism and every single issue, from A to Z, that troubles some African-American communities.

You're pointing this out as if it's some sort of accident or figment of my imagination -- I've given you studies, news articles, graphs, historical documents, and reports directly linking every disparity to the persistent effects of slavery racism.

The most you seem to be able to provide in response is the opinion of one isolated scholar in a couple of Youtube videos. And when confronted with evidence which directly contradicts your claims on specific issues, you then jump ship to the next issue.

So yes -- believe it or not, almost every issue in which there's a major disparity to the negative for African-Americans has historical and statistical connections to hundreds of years worth of slavery and persistent racism. It affects literacy, education, living conditions, hiring prospects, neighborhood resources, representation in government, profiling by police, etc, which in turn affect other things like health care, child care, income, incarceration rates, etc. You seem to have a problem with that.

 

[KingHippo]

Remember when black people in Tulsa got so independent and wealthy that the local whites rioted and, with the aid of local police, killed 75 to 100 of those black people and looted and destroyed much of the district they lived in, including taking planes up into the sky and dropping burning projectiles down onto the city?

But having children out of wedlock though

 

[M2Dave]

So yes -- believe it or not, almost every issue in which there's a major disparity to the negative for African-Americans has historical and statistical connections to hundreds of years worth of slavery and persistent racism. It affects literacy, education, living conditions, hiring prospects, neighborhood resources, representation in government, profiling by police, etc, which in turn affect other things like health care, child care, income, incarceration rates, etc. You seem to have a problem with that.

Well, you could have said so from the very beginning instead of pretending to be a moderate and a voice of reason in this long debate. I am still waiting for your list of solutions to fix America's irredeemable racism. At least MrApchem and Angelman have been honest about their Neo-Marxism. Why not be honest too?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

@M2Dave you keep dodging the most important question, which sums up this entire thread -- so I'm going to ask it again.

Do you believe that African-Americans are simply genetically less hard-working, less accomplished, less moral than Caucasians? Do you believe that they are simply born to put less effort into life and relationships?

If you do, this is what we call 'racism'.

And if you do not, then you have to admit that if there so many disparities which are not genetic, but yet are notable and measurable, that they are caused by ripple effects of the hundreds of years of social conditions that have disadvantaged this race of people from the early 1600's until now, through no fault of their own.

Period.

There's no other plausible explanation for why an entire race of people would collectively be achieving well below the ethnic majority on average, make less money than the ethnic majority on average, be disproportionally non-represented in government and in executive suites of the nation's most powerful companies. It's either their inherent nature (a belief we call racism) or it's the result of the years of abuse, discrimination, and structural inequality they've been subjected to in this country (history).