EX Throws - 50/50s

[Doombawkz]

Why do you keep bring up scenarios and guarantees like F/T lacks mobility and Reptile lacks approach? We don't even know how the game works, why put these assumptions (which are almost entirely baseless) out there?

First off, F/T is fat, and probably doesn't have ~enough~ mobility to where chasing a far-launched target is optimal for him.
Its not optimal for Bane, and his mobility is probably up there near the best in his game.
Also I might actually have an aged and obsolete idea of how F/T handles.

Reptile from 1/2 screen inwards can't abuse elbow dash for getting in because its range makes it risky if they just block. He can run in, maybe slide in for the low and projectile duck, but I didn't see him having a safe approach that would warrant him launching someone rather than keeping them within arm's reach.


The point of it all is that these characters benefit more from you being close than you being 1/3 or 1/2 screen away from them.
This is true, and nearly undeniable. Maybe vicious wouldn't care because Boss toss is great.

 

[KingHippo]

The point of it all is that these characters benefit more from you being close than you being 1/3 or 1/2 screen away from them.
This is true, and nearly undeniable. Maybe vicious wouldn't care because Boss toss is great.

Undeniable? That is absolutely absurd. I understand speculation, and the excitement of a new game, but to be spouting essays about the mechanics of the game being good and bad for some characters with practically no knowledge is a little grating.

 

[Shark Tank]

If you can't break throws, I see the value of throwing mid combo increasing. Presumably you can't break and tech at the same time. So if you launch someone, there's now a situation of "is he going to throw or hit me", because you both know a breaker is an option, it leads to the decision of do I go for the safer breaker option and guarantee I don't get 20% lost, or do I try to get greedy and tech the throw since I assume my opponent will guess I'll go with the safer option.

 

[Braindead]

Who the hell told you that mashing two buttons at once would be able to cover both options? Yes, you have nothing to lose if you mash the tech if you're being juggled...so mash away. You still have to know which way your opponent is going to throw you (the part about mashing two buttons at once sounds dumb, no offense). The consequences for your mashing would be that you might guess wrong. Also, we don't know how strict the timing to tech the throw is, and if indeed it is, your opponent could mess with you by maybe going for the throw ender sooner than you think.

Don't throw around things like "you're wrong" when you have no idea how the hell the game works. I'm not saying I'm right but what I'm saying is still fairly logical: You still have to make a guess. Now, you might claim that you shouldn't be able to, and I'd be fine with that, but A) we don't know how rewarding MB throws are and if they are really rewarding and lead to safe options, then maybe you should be able to tech them, and B) You're saying it's useless, which is factually incorrect. It obviously has its uses since you still have to guess which way you're going to get thrown (again, your mash two buttons at once thing sounds super dumb, unless NRS really make such a stupid oversight).

If you were simply saying you don't think they should be techable, like Haketh is, that's fine. But you're not.

Lol I don't know why you get so worked up. If it's about the "you're wrong" part then I was referring to the sentence you started with: "It wouldn't make it useless since you either tech it or not...just like a regular throw. That would imply regular throws are useless too."
I showed you that saying one doesn't imply the other.

My opinion is exactly like Haketh's. I might have used different words but it's exactly what I meant.

We all teched throws by mashing. But you couldn't mash two buttons at once and cover both options. You should know that after 4 years, and you should also know that you can't throw around definitive statements like a know-it-all about MKX when you haven't played it.

In a lot of my responses I kept saying that we don't know the game and we might be missing something, and I was trying to understand if there was something people know that's there in MKX and I don't.

Regarding the throws being 50/50s, as I said I got out of a lot of them by mashing, probably because I knew they were coming and it's easier to do so when you expect them. Yeah you can't hit the 2 buttons at the same time and get out completely, but you have a window to tech, and when you know it's coming it's easier to keep mashing the two options and you'll have a better success with getting out.

I stand by my opinion that it doesn't make sense to be able to tech the throws mid combo, and I was discussing with Doombawkz trying to understand why he'd think otherwise. But now people seem to get angry when I try to discuss with them, so I'm peacing out.

 

[Doombawkz]

Undeniable? That is absolutely absurd. I understand speculation, and the excitement of a new game, but to be spouting essays about the mechanics of the game being good and bad for some characters with practically no knowledge is a little grating.

Tell me then. What benefit does Ruthless/Lackey or any of Reptile's variations gain from them being at a huge distance that isn't beaten out by them being closer to them? Reptile is a pressure character, F/T is a brawler/grappler. They thrive on being in close and keeping pressure.

Getting them out of pressure range isn't good. That, in itself, is something that really isn't deniable. If you can, then give me a scenario where they don't want to be in close.

 

[xWildx]

@GGA 16 Bit

I don't know if you can answer this, but since everyone is arguing about it and some have said they've heard it from devs:

Can you tech throws while being combo'd?

 

[coolwhip]

I caught you in a combo. I know for a fact and 100% sure that you are going to tech the throw mid-combo. Why would I throw?

Wait how do you know for a fact they're going to tech the throw mid-combo? That makes zero sense. You don't know how strict the timing is and you don't know if they're going to guess right.

 

[Doombawkz]

I stand by my opinion that it doesn't make sense to be able to tech the throws mid combo, and I was discussing with Doombawkz trying to understand why he'd think otherwise. But now people seem to get angry when I try to discuss with them, so I'm peacing out.

I don't get angry, but its hard to put my opinion into words so I'm getting frustrated at myself D:
Don't leave me, I enjoy your conversation and I feel its constructive because its actually exploring the situation rather than knee-jerking like most people.

Wait how do you know for a fact they're going to tech the throw mid-combo? That makes zero sense. You don't know how strict the timing is and you don't know if they're going to guess right.

Its a hypothetical based on the idea that people are saying "I'll just mash out 100% of the time"

 

[KingHippo]

Tell me then. What benefit does Ruthless/Lackey or any of Reptile's variations gain from them being at a huge distance that isn't beaten out by them being closer to them? Reptile is a pressure character, F/T is a brawler/grappler. They thrive on being in close and keeping pressure.

Getting them out of pressure range isn't good. That, in itself, is something that really isn't deniable. If you can, then give me a scenario where they don't want to be in close.

I can't give you a scenario since I have never touched this game and couldn't possibly comment on to what the characters in the game play like or what their optimal range is. I suggest you do the same and keep it speculative.

 

[Braindead]

I don't get angry, but its hard to put my opinion into words so I'm getting frustrated at myself D:
Don't leave me, I enjoy your conversation and I feel its constructive because its actually exploring the situation rather than knee-jerking like most people.



Its a hypothetical based on the idea that people are saying "I'll just mash out 100% of the time"

I wasn't referring to you being angry. I was referring to @coolwhip getting worked up (IF HE DID! DON'T GET ANGRY NOW IF YOU WERENT BEFORE AND SAY I'M ASSUMING YOU GOT ANGRY!) and the other people who were responding with other stuff like "SMH" and I don't know what.

 

[K7L33THA]

I think they just mis used the term "50/50" on stream. Its just a restand/eliminates the chance for a wakeup.

If your character has a 50/50 then obviously that will be an option, but doesn't mean every character will have that option.

It will create a new mindgame in combo's since it can be tech'd. I'm all for it.

 

[Doombawkz]

I can't give you a scenario since I have never touched this game and couldn't possibly comment on to what the characters in the game play like or what their optimal range is. I suggest you do the same and keep it speculative.

(Actually I've touched the game, hence my "outdated and obsolete idea of movement"). Lets take Reptile's MK9 version, then, since thats a tangible idea and the character probably has the same archetype given his moves. What benefit does that reptile have for being far away from a target that he doesn't get being in close? Last I recall, his biggest issue was getting zoned out.

 

[Doombawkz]

I wasn't referring to you being angry. I was referring to @coolwhip getting worked up (IF HE DID! DON'T GET ANGRY NOW IF YOU WERENT BEFORE AND SAY I'M ASSUMING YOU GOT ANGRY!) and the other people who were responding with other stuff like "SMH" and I don't know what.

]: Okay.

Anyways, I can see the system working out really well given the trade-off for the options and the mind-game aspect of it.
Also that not every character will want to do this, so its only applicable likely to a select amount of the cast, so we can keep them in the mindset.

 

[coolwhip]

Lol I don't know why you get so worked up. If it's about the "you're wrong" part then I was referring to the sentence you started with: "It wouldn't make it useless since you either tech it or not...just like a regular throw. That would imply regular throws are useless too."
I showed you that saying one doesn't imply the other.

My opinion is exactly like Haketh's. I might have used different words but it's exactly what I meant.


In a lot of my responses I kept saying that we don't know the game and we might be missing something, and I was trying to understand if there was something people know that's there in MKX and I don't.

Regarding the throws being 50/50s, as I said I got out of a lot of them by mashing, probably because I knew they were coming and it's easier to do so when you expect them. Yeah you can't hit the 2 buttons at the same time and get out completely, but you have a window to tech, and when you know it's coming it's easier to keep mashing the two options and you'll have a better success with getting out.

I stand by my opinion that it doesn't make sense to be able to tech the throws mid combo, and I was discussing with Doombawkz trying to understand why he'd think otherwise. But now people seem to get angry when I try to discuss with them, so I'm peacing out.

Nobody's getting worked up, easy there. I think you've read too many of my actual worked up posts to think this is me actually getting worked up.

The problem isn't your opinion, the problem is the arguments you're using are genuinely silly. You can't know 100% for a fact that someone is going to tech a throw, you can't mash two buttons at once and cover both forward and back throws (at least you couldn't in MK9 and it would be a stupid mechanic if it existed in MKX), and just because you have nothing to lose by mashing doesn't mean it's not worth making you guess and throwing, or mess up your timing by maybe going for the throw earlier (provided the timing to tech isn't too lenient and your mashing just carries over).

I'll give you that my "that would imply regular throws are useless" isn't an entirely accurate analogy, but that was a response to the flat out wrong statement that just because throws can be teched during combo they'd be useless. The problem of your whole understanding of this is you seem to be thinking, and correct me if I'm wrong, that people are just going to be able to tech throws mid-combo 100% of the time. In fact, you kind of said as much. If that indeed proves to be true, I will go back and apologize, but from a logical standpoint, it seems too far-fetched a claim.

 

[Doombawkz]

The problem isn't your opinion, the problem is the arguments you're using are genuinely silly. You can't know 100% for a fact that someone is going to tech a throw

Actually you can make a good guess on it based on how they react. Training the opponents and whatnot, fighting games have plenty of cases where you condition a reaction from the opponent so that (maybe not 100% of the time) you know they will respond the same way.

Hence why Bane players will mix up b.2xxcommand grab and b.2xxVU because we eventually train you to jump the grab and we get free oki for the VU (which can be made mostly safe)

 

[coolwhip]

For the record, I 100% have no opinion on mid-combo throws or MB throws. I'm not being diplomatic but I can see tons of scenarios where I'd love the idea and I can think of tons of scenarios where they might be either too good, or too "not worth it." But I honestly trust them.

 

[Chaosphere]

If someone is mashing high attacks because they're paranoid about me doing a MB throw mid-combo, not only have I scared my opponent shitless but can then duck and whiff punish for another full combo.

But in mk9 teching could be done with 1/3 and 2/4. Maybe it'll be the same? In which case there's be no reason to hit 1 or 2.

Why am I theory crafting? This is just speculation.

 

[NoobHunter420]

omg so broke fire pako and hire p2w

 

[coolwhip]

Actually you can make a good guess on it based on how they react. Training the opponents and whatnot, fighting games have plenty of cases where you condition a reaction from the opponent so that (maybe not 100% of the time) you know they will respond the same way.

Hence why Bane players will mix up b.2xxcommand grab and b.2xxVU because we eventually train you to jump the grab and we get free oki for the VU (which can be made mostly safe)

Actually a "good guess" isn't "100% for a fact." A good guess and the things you've described above such as conditioning and making informed reads (as well as your opponent mixing it up to keep you guessing) is just how fighting games work. I don't see how that's relevant to my statement that there's no way you can assume your opponent is "100% for a fact" going to tech the throw.

 

[16 Bit]

@GGA 16 Bit

I don't know if you can answer this, but since everyone is arguing about it and some have said they've heard it from devs:

Can you tech throws while being combo'd?

yes

 

[xWildx]

yes

Thank you, sir

 

[Doombawkz]

Actually a "good guess" isn't "100% for a fact." A good guess and the things you've described above such as conditioning and making informed reads (as well as your opponent mixing it up to keep you guessing) is just how fighting games work. I don't see how that's relevant to my statement that there's no way you can assume your opponent is "100% for a fact" going to tech the throw.

As I said in an earlier quote, it was a hypothetical based on the question of "why not mash 100% of the time"? I'm just saying its not entirely wrong to assume you can predict when/if your opponent will tech. Not with 100% accuracy, mind you, but its not impossible to assume a scenario where you know they are incredibly likely to tech.

(actually, if you wanna get technical, if the throw would kill them otherwise I can't see any reason why they wouldn't tech so that can be a 100% situation since you either take the round or get the tech)

 

[Braindead]

Actually a "good guess" isn't "100% for a fact." A good guess and the things you've described above such as conditioning and making informed reads (as well as your opponent mixing it up to keep you guessing) is just how fighting games work. I don't see how that's relevant to my statement that there's no way you can assume your opponent is "100% for a fact" going to tech the throw.

Why are you fixated on that sentence? It was a hypothetical situation I was discussing with Doombawkz. What the hell, man?!
You might want to read my conversation with Doombawkz again.

 

[golden_petros]

I didnt like that one not because Its not cool or anything.but, am against anything that makes chars similar to each other in any way ( especially if wer talkin about strategies and play style

 

[THTB]

Because it's a throw in a combo, can't think of a single game that lets you end combos in a throw where you could tech them because that makes ending in that option useless.

MK throws aren't like other 2D games. You have to guess between forward and backward throw, and tech accordingly, and NRS doesn't use different animations for different throws. So you won't always tech, though you can have an educated guess as to which direction the throw will be in based on the position on the screen.

Also, the implementations of this can be huge, not just as a combo ender, but a way to set up positioning for yourself.