EX Throws - 50/50s

[dribirut]

"Everything has a cost" - Someone on the stream

Having to give up one bar out of 3 which quickly regenerates anyways for a chance to get a free safe 50/50 that could potentially lead to 40%+ damafe is haaaardly a cost and imo rewards lazy and thoughtless gameplay

 

[Doombawkz]

Having to give up one bar out of 3 which quickly regenerates anyways for a chance to get a free safe 50/50 that could potentially lead to 40%+ damafe is haaaardly a cost and imo rewards lazy and thoughtless gameplay

Never said it wasn't worth it (although you can tech it), just saying "free" is a bit incorrect. Thats all.

Plus it depends on your situation and the other character. Reptile might not be able to combo you if he spent his bar since his OH launcher costs a bar to use (although he just wants the neutral advantage anyways if he is Noxious I'd think. Get some free stink on them.) and meter is important. Guess wrong on your 50/50, then you don't have breaker and that can be devastating.

 

[dribirut]

Never said it wasn't worth it (although you can tech it), just saying "free" is a bit incorrect. Thats all.

I should have clarified. I meant free as in you have ample plus frames to not be interrupted whatsoever or even jump away to get out your overhear or low. Also who said you could tech the throw while in the combo? That could fix this problem

 

[dribirut]

This will also be a problem with grapple characters who have an untechable command throw. That In itself will be a safe 50/50 that will lead to huge damage

 

[Doombawkz]

I should have clarified. I meant free as in you have ample plus frames to not be interrupted whatsoever or even jump away to get out your overhear or low. Also who said you could tech the throw while in the combo? That could fix this problem

16 bit confirmed it like 3 pages ago I think. Lemme hit that quote button.

yes

You can follow the arrow up. Also I get what you mean now.

 

[dribirut]

Thank goooodddd they can be teched! That changes everything. They should make it that if you commit to the ex throw and you get it teched, you still lose the meter

 

[Brutal Chimney]

I seriously doubt people are going to want to end every combo with a "potential" meter costing 50/50 vs a guaranteed damage dealing EX ender.

i just want to end every combo with a cool looking throw

 

[Doombawkz]

Thank goooodddd they can be teched! That changes everything. They should make it that if you commit to the ex throw and you get it teched, you still lose the meter

Thats what I figured because it makes no sense to have it the other way. Like if you guess right, I don't lose anything, but if you guess wrong, I take everything, I don't think thats how it should be.

Plus it creates a mind-game I explained before.

Spoiler

Tech a MB grab and you burn one of their bars and prevent frame advantage
Tech a normal throw, and you restand yourself for free and prevent frame advantage.
Don't tech a MB grab, you get restood and take a hit on the frame advantage
Don't tech a grab, and you get out with minimal damage.

The advantage of throwing during the combo is that you force your opponent to guess if you are doing a grab or a MB grab. If you have a strong neutral game, 3/4 of those are somewhat in your favor (although losing a bar sucks). This makes throwing at the end of a combo better for those kinds of characters.
If they guess wrong and get MB grabbed, thats gravy advantage. If they guess wrong and tech a normal grab, thats free restand gravy.

The only time they get out with no downside is if you think they are going to mash tech (like you described) and they don't mash tech.
The only time they get caught with no downside to you is if you don't think they will mash tech (expecting them to go for it all) and hit the MB.

Its a gamble in the purest sense. This is a brilliant mechanic (if it works as described) because the safe play is to MB the grab but its also putting money in it to make it safer. You invest to remove the 1/4 bad option, but you might not get the big pay-out.

Makes the mechanic much deeper and much more interesting if this is how it ends up being done. But thats just imo.

 

[haketh]

This will also be a problem with grapple characters who have an untechable command throw. That In itself will be a safe 50/50 that will lead to huge damage

Guess right then punish them for most likely not having meter for breaker for going for the EX Grab. Jesus all you do is bitch about 50/50s

 

[Doombawkz]

EDIT: I think that would make a better status.

On an off note, I wonder Kotal can restand into his command grab and be able to pull it off. Maybe they'll be too far.

 

[dribirut]

Guess right then punish them for most likely not having meter for breaker for going for the EX Grab. Jesus all you do is bitch about 50/50s

lol man maybe you dont understand because your might not be that good of a player but this could be a serious problem if not done properly. You have shown your true colors and we all know you want a scrubby safe 50/50 fest with little thought process but some of us want an intelligent game that rewards spacing and patience.. It doesnt matter anyways because it can be teched.. your thought process is sooo just i dont want to say dumb.. its like saying "broooooo just block killerfrost's followup after her reset and punish soo easssyy youre soooo dumb".. Its obvious other people had the same concern.

 

[TotteryManx]

Honestly, I believe a lot of people are freaking out about this because they may be bad at breaking throws. Just put some time into it and you'll get better eventually

 

[Doombawkz]

lol man maybe you dont understand because your might not be that good of a player but this could be a serious problem if not done properly. You have shown your true colors and we all know you want a scrubby safe 50/50 fest with little thought process but some of us want an intelligent game that rewards spacing and patience.. It doesnt matter anyways because it can be teched.. your thought process is sooo just i dont want to say dumb.. its like saying "broooooo just block killerfrost's followup after her reset and punish soo easssyy youre soooo dumb".. Its obvious other people had the same concern.

I was actually thinking of comparing it to Ra Helios since he said CW can beat Bane, all she has to do is "guess right".

 

[haketh]

Because I totally implied I wanted safe 50/50 zzzzzzzzzzzzzz, I don't even play mixup characters lol. Usually I zone, only exception is Azreal in BlazBlue

 

[Doombawkz]

Because I totally implied I wanted safe 50/50 zzzzzzzzzzzzzz, I don't even play mixup characters lol. Usually I zone, only exception is Azreal in BlazBlue

He tends to exaggerate a bit, though I do agree that the idea of using "just guess right" as an answer is a pretty weak argument.
I mean anything can happen if you just guess right.

 

[haketh]

It's not, that''s what you do, the more you play games & the wider variety of games you play the less you care about this shit. *Shrug* having to deal with real grime the stuff I've seen & dealt with in most NRS games is pretty fucking tame. EX Deer son.

 

[Doombawkz]

It's not, that''s what you do, the more you play games & the wider variety of games you play the less you care about this shit. *Shrug* having to deal with real grime the stuff I've seen & dealt with in most NRS games is pretty fucking tame. EX Deer son.

Well I mean guessing right might not be that easy, and even moreso that you have to guess right in such a short span of time, and then guess right a second time, and possibly a third depending on the character. Most things have the regard that not everyone guesses right all of the time, so its not correct to use it as the foundation for a point.

I mean if you guess right, you're never in the situation to begin with because you just perfected the opponent with all of your right guessing.

Maybe not for you because you're you, but most other people don't guess right all of the time. Thats why Batgirl is good.

 

[haketh]

Jesus Christ you are reading way to much into it

 

[xWildx]

Tyler really should have said "mixup" and not "50/50." I highly doubt every character is going to have true 50/50's from this throw setup, especially at the distance it seems to put the characters at.

But naturally he DID use the term 50/50 and it sends the entire community into a frenzy of confusion and fear.

 

[Rude]

I went into this thread expecting it to be worse than the last one. i was right.

 

[KingHippo]

IMO, the big problem is people look at the problem itself (Meterless 50/50 scenarios that loop themselves) and not thinking of the reason as to why the game was bottlenecked into that scenario.

There were a few different things that really pushed the meta of Injustice towards 50/50:

-Movement was so stilted that jumping or dashing in was often the only course of action, and the inherent risk forced people to sit still. These lets a lot of the higher tier chars, with their superior mobility, to really force their game, which was unreactable highs and lows that looped back

-Best characters didn't have to spend any valuable resources to enforce their guessing game, it just kind of happened regardless. And it looped.

-Only one break option allowed, and it was rough against those with meterless offensive games because they rarely spent any, making their options in clash a lot stronger than the defender

So you have a game that is highly based on the strength of defensive conversions, which were often unreactable mids and lows that were safe and there was no option to fall out of combos except for one in the last life bar, in which the characters with really strong meterless options often kept most of their meter and built it really well, so the payoff wasn't so great.

A lot of speculation here, but I would think that now that MKX has breakers, characters are genuinely mobile in aspects beyond jumps and dashes, plus the EX throw in and of itself being a bit of a guess on to whether or not it lands, we might be jumping the gun. The theatrics are a little over the top, especially for people claiming that the 50/50's themselves are 'scrubby'. What folly.

 

[Doombawkz]

-Best characters didn't have to spend any valuable resources to enforce their guessing game, it just kind of happened regardless. And it looped.

I think this was the biggest problem. Especially since within the top 7 or 8 characters, you got no real benefit for guessing right, and a huge loss when you guessed wrong, and you constantly had situations where you would be put back into having to guess again for next to no cost.

Like Batgirl vortex landing off of pretty much any move. Bane's oki blender happening off of any knockdown. WW/Superman getting divebombs after each knockdown. The low-risk-high-reward is what really was the problem.

 

[trufenix]

i just want to end every combo with a cool looking throw

Then you wouldn't want to MB it anyway, the MB throw is just like an akward shove instead of whatever baller throw your character has.

 

[MKF30]

At first I was concerned about this but reason why I'm not are the following:

1. Throws can be tech out of last time I checked, one should always be aware of being potentially thrown(if you're bad at the timing, that's not the game's fault)

2. Everyone can do it so this can actually help certain characters such as lower and mid tier who may be lacking in other tools.

3. It can be guessed right, like Derek and Tyler said you can guess wrong sure...or you can guess right and thus you just made the opposing player potentially waste 1 bar of meter on the EX/MB throw which you can take advantage of.

4. If say this proves to be an issue, easy resets, broken etc they can always go in with a quick fix and reduce stun frames all they want(tweak how long it leaves you standing)

5. I honestly only see people using this towards an end of a match or round because breakers are too crucial an element in MK to waste a bar of meter on a POTENTIAL 50/50 reset mix up...it's just that 50/50. In that regard it's a pretty big gamble when you think about it.

My opinion on the topic.

 

[SCK ERR0R MACR0]

Damn this thread blew up. Wasn't trying to start a war, this just seems like a mechanic that could easily get out of hand. Like most things, the devil is in the details, so perhaps a few people could comment on the following:

Question 1: If you tech the throw, would that negate the meter use? (I hope the answer to this is no, it would still consume the bar of meter)
Question 2: What's the frame advantage look like for the person throwing?
Question 3: What's the frame data look like on pokes in this game?

With those 3 answers, we could possibly better analyze the potential effects this mechanic will have on matches. I'm not condemning it--it's too early for that. I was just saying that at first blush, I'm not fond of a vortex heavy game and hope that meter burn throwing every combo doesn't dominate every match. That's all, nothing more.