EX Throws - 50/50s

[Braindead]

To MB a throw you need meter. That means if you MB every throw, you won't have meter to break. If you are dominating you opponent to the point where you have enough meter to reset all you combs in to MB throw, I'd say you deserve to win.

That being, your opponent can tech your throw, thus negating you50/50 advantage, amounting in you wasting your bar.

Not to mention that your opponent can break your combos. Unlike Injustice.

 

[haketh]

To be fair, if MKX is to be similar to MK9 in regards to teching throws, there was still a legit guess between forward and back throw because the button to tech them was different. Fuudo for thought.

Yeah it's food for thought but it's still just like why give the option if it can be teched? Could just be biased cuz I've played other game with the same mechanic but I seriously don't see a reason for them to be techable.

 

[Doombawkz]

That, my dear Bawkz, is simply called EX throw.
That is very good to know. From now on it's EX throw not MB throw.

I mis-spoke a bit. You do have to grab and then MB. However, you can't wait until Reptile dangles them before saying "ok I'll MB now".
The window is tight, is what I'm trying to say. EX throw sounds more accurate but I don't think I can confirm that thats the case.

So the only advantage of being able to throw during the combo is the advantage you get when they tech your throw?! That doesn't make sense man.

I understand being able to tech a grounded throw after a string. But after a full juggle as a combo ender... just doesn't make sense.

Sigh... MB grab and normal grab is a 50/50. There's a right/wrong answer.

Tech a MB grab and you burn one of their bars and prevent frame advantage
Tech a normal throw, and you restand yourself for free and prevent frame advantage.
Don't tech a MB grab, you get restood and take a hit on the frame advantage
Don't tech a grab, and you get out with minimal damage.

The advantage of throwing during the combo is that you force your opponent to guess if you are doing a grab or a MB grab. If you have a strong neutral game, 3/4 of those are somewhat in your favor (although losing a bar sucks). This makes throwing at the end of a combo better for those kinds of characters.
If they guess wrong and get MB grabbed, thats gravy advantage. If they guess wrong and tech a normal grab, thats free restand gravy.

The only time they get out with no downside is if you think they are going to mash tech (like you described) and they don't mash tech.
The only time they get caught with no downside to you is if you don't think they will mash tech (expecting them to go for it all) and hit the MB.

Its a gamble in the purest sense. This is a brilliant mechanic (if it works as described) because the safe play is to MB the grab but its also putting money in it to make it safer. You invest to remove the 1/4 bad option, but you might not get the big pay-out.


Also a "full juggle" isn't quite accurate. As I said before, the juggle linking into grab might not all be optimal. You probably aren't getting a big damage string unless you are REALLY investing, in which case the other player will be at an advantage in bar. EX specials are pretty beefed too, so depending on your character, you might benefit.

I don't get the argument. If you can tech a throw while being juggled, there's no reason not to mash it out 100% of the time. Worst case, they end with something else that you couldn't tech anyway? I can't imagine me teching a throw would ever be worse than eating it. Weird argument.

Now throw tech is constantly being mashed, which means throwing a juggled opponent is useless. I would be amazed if that's how they made it.

See above. If you're Storm Lord Raiden, you don't want to always mash because restanding yourself for free against someone like Noxious Reptile will be worse than the alternative. You can block a 50/50 if you are careful, but if you don't tech and they go for the free bonus, you get put a good distance away and its neutral but you have space to work with.

If I know you will tech no matter what, I'll just abuse you in the neutral after you tech my throw because you basically put yourself in the neutral again for free. Even moreso if your wake-ups are like Raiden teleport good.

 

[Braindead]

I don't get the argument. If you can tech a throw while being juggled, there's no reason not to mash it out 100% of the time. Worst case, they end with something else that you couldn't tech anyway? I can't imagine me teching a throw would ever be worse than eating it. Weird argument.

Now throw tech is constantly being mashed, which means throwing a juggled opponent is useless. I would be amazed if that's how they made it.

THANK YOU.

 

[coolwhip]

I disagree that it makes sense. Think about using a regular throw as a combo ender. Being able to tech it would be dumb and it would actually make being able to link throws during combos in the first place useless.

It wouldn't make it useless since you either tech it or not...just like a regular throw. That would imply regular throws are useless too. I agree it sounds like an awkward animation but we haven't seen it yet. Also, we don't know how strict the timing is. I doubt your opponent would be able to just mash mid combo and simply tech the throw. Keep in mind, the throw system works like MK9 which means it's a 50/50 and you have to guess which way you're getting thrown in order to tech correctly (something nobody has brought up yet because they're too busy freaking out). The same might apply to a mid-combo throw.

Now, general picture comment (not directed at you):

I find it HILARIOUS that TYM is shitting its pants over MB throws because 50/50's have become the boogeyman since Injustice...As if standing resets in MK9 weren't scary as shit just because they didn't all lead to 50/50's... Yeah, that Johnny Cage nut-punch which allowed him to kill me with pure chip was so great to deal with because I didn't have to guess between high and low (but still had to make tons of guesses as he continues his pressure to know when to poke, counter-poke, tech a throw...all of which would lead to the same dumb guessing game if I guessed wrong). The thought that 50/50's are just pure guesses while everything else is OK because "it requires skill" is so dumb.

 

[coolwhip]

Because it's a throw in a combo, can't think of a single game that lets you end combos in a throw where you could tech them because that makes ending in that option useless.

50/50. You still have to guess which way you're going to get thrown and tech accordingly. And how is it useless when it's not guaranteed? Are regular throws useless too? Sure, maybe that means that just going with a different combo ender would be safer, but that doesn't mean this is useless. I've seen that word get thrown around with far too much frequency recently over things we don't even know yet. Useless means just that... MB throws have their uses. So by definition they're not useless.

Secondly, it's a MB throw, not EX. So in all likelihood, and I could be wrong here, you can only spend a bar of meter after you get the throw, so you wouldn't be wasting a bar only for the throw to get teched.

 

[Braindead]

I mis-spoke a bit. You do have to grab and then MB. However, you can't wait until Reptile dangles them before saying "ok I'll MB now".
The window is tight, is what I'm trying to say. EX throw sounds more accurate but I don't think I can confirm that thats the case.


Sigh... MB grab and normal grab is a 50/50. There's a right/wrong answer.

Tech a MB grab and you burn one of their bars and prevent frame advantage
Tech a normal throw, and you restand yourself for free and prevent frame advantage.
Don't tech a MB grab, you get restood and take a hit on the frame advantage
Don't tech a grab, and you get out with minimal damage.

The advantage of throwing during the combo is that you force your opponent to guess if you are doing a grab or a MB grab. If you have a strong neutral game, 3/4 of those are somewhat in your favor (although losing a bar sucks). This makes throwing at the end of a combo better for those kinds of characters.
If they guess wrong and get MB grabbed, thats gravy advantage. If they guess wrong and tech a normal grab, thats free restand gravy.

The only time they get out with no downside is if you think they are going to mash tech (like you described) and they don't mash tech.
The only time they get caught with no downside to you is if you don't think they will mash tech (expecting them to go for it all) and hit the MB.

Its a gamble in the purest sense. This is a brilliant mechanic (if it works as described) because the safe play is to MB the grab but its also putting money in it to make it safer. You invest to remove the 1/4 bad option, but you might not get the big pay-out.


Also a "full juggle" isn't quite accurate. As I said before, the juggle linking into grab might not all be optimal. You probably aren't getting a big damage string unless you are REALLY investing, in which case the other player will be at an advantage in bar. EX specials are pretty beefed too, so depending on your character, you might benefit.



See above.

Bawkz, bear with me again. Lol.

I caught you in a combo. I know for a fact and 100% sure that you are going to tech the throw mid-combo. Why would I throw? You say because you might have a strong wake up game and I don't want you to wake up. So I gamble on the throw, so that you'd tech it, and it's neutral again.

Why don't I just use an ender that knocks you far from me, your wakeups are useless then, and I'd have frame advantage?
What am I missing?

 

[Braindead]

It wouldn't make it useless since you either tech it or not...just like a regular throw. That would imply regular throws are useless too. I agree it sounds like an awkward animation but we haven't seen it yet. Also, we don't know how strict the timing is. I doubt your opponent would be able to just mash mid combo and simply tech the throw. Keep in mind, the throw system works like MK9 which means it's a 50/50 and you have to guess which way you're getting thrown in order to tech correctly (something nobody has brought up yet because they're too busy freaking out). The same might apply to an mid-combo throw.

No whip, you're wrong.

Being able to tech a throw during a juggle is extremely different from being able to tech a normal one. If I want to tech a normal throw then I'm gambling on him actually going for a throw and not blocking, so I can eat a new combo for free if they go for a hit instead of throw.

But during a juggle, I have nothing to lose if I mash the tech. I'm being juggled any way, why don't I mash?

About the 50/50 I can just mash 1+2 or 1+3, whatever it is, to get me out of both options.

Do you see it now?

 

[haketh]

50/50. You still have to guess which way you're going to get thrown and tech accordingly. And how is it useless when it's not guaranteed? Are regular throws useless too? Sure, maybe that means that just going with a different combo ender would be safer, but that doesn't mean this is useless. I've seen that word get thrown around with far too much frequency recently over things we don't even know yet. Useless means just that... MB throws have their uses. So by definition they're not useless.

Secondly, it's a MB throw. So in all likelihood, and I could be wrong here, you can only spend a bar of meter after you get the throw, so you wouldn't be wasting a bar only for the throw to get teched.

Theirs a difference between the usefulness of a throw being used in neutral or in pressure situations because compared to throws during a combo, it's a lot easier to keep an eye out for a throw & tech it when all you have to worry about is the throw seeing how this isn't a game with quick restands or resets in general like in Skull Girls, Marvel, Melty what have you. I admit useless is to strong of a word but I'm "leaning" towards the weaker side of use with what we know so far.

I will give you this this really depends on how the tech system works in MKX, I could be totally wrong & you could be right who knows.

 

[TopTierHarley]

Why is everyone afraid of the phrase 50/50? Like seriously ever since vortex characters became a thing people are afraid of the word for no reason. It's like you guys haven't played any other fighters or something, let alone anime games where that is the main mechanic.

 

[Doombawkz]

Bawkz, bear with me again. Lol.

I caught you in a combo. I know for a fact and 100% sure that you are going to tech the throw mid-combo. Why would I throw? You say because you might have a strong wake up game and I don't want you to wake up. So I gamble on the throw, so that you'd tech it, and it's neutral again.

Why don't I just use an ender that knocks you far from me, your wakeups are useless then, and I'd have frame advantage?
What am I missing?

Lets say you do that against someone like Storm Lord Raiden.
You knock them so far their wake-ups are useless, but now you have to get in on them again.
If you lack mobility (F/T) or don't have a safe approach from halfscreen inwards (Reptile) then you got the damage but lost the pressure.
Even having frame advantage doesn't change the fact that putting some character far away will be bad for you.

To put it in modern terms, Ring slam does good damage. Bane can do it and get huuuuuge damage, yet you never see that.
You see Bane end with Venom Uppercut most of the time, why do you figure? Its because we don't want to work our way back in for damage.
We trade some for keeping pressure. Same case here.

So lets assume the other scenario. You know I'm going to tech 100% of the time, but you beat me in the neutral or are an armored monster.
Why wouldn't you throw? You get a free restand and can keep pressure without them having any obvious answer.
Some characters rely on being a distance away. Throw enables that, either for a cost or, if you guess right, for free.

 

[haketh]

Why is everyone afraid of the phrase 50/50? Like seriously ever since vortex characters became a thing people are afraid of the word for no reason. It's like going guys haven't played any other fighters or something, let alone anime games where that is the main mechanic.

Ding ding ding

 

[KingHippo]

No whip, you're wrong.

Being able to tech a throw during a juggle is extremely different from being able to tech a normal one. If I want to tech a normal throw then I'm gambling on him actually going for a throw and not blocking, so I can eat a new combo for free if they go for a hit instead of throw.

But during a juggle, I have nothing to lose if I mash the tech. I'm being juggled any way, why don't I mash?

About the 50/50 I can just mash 1+2 or 1+3, whatever it is, to get me out of both options.

Do you see it now?

In MK9, you could not mash both buttons or press both buttons in rapid succession, it would only register one button. For all we know so far, throws in MKX are close to the same.

 

[KingHippo]

Lets say you do that against someone like Storm Lord Raiden.
You knock them so far their wake-ups are useless, but now you have to get in on them again.
If you lack mobility (F/T) or don't have a safe approach from halfscreen inwards (Reptile) then you got the damage but lost the pressure.
Even having frame advantage doesn't change the fact that putting some character far away will be bad for you.

To put it in modern terms, Ring slam does good damage. Bane can do it and get huuuuuge damage, yet you never see that.
You see Bane end with Venom Uppercut most of the time, why do you figure? Its because we don't want to work our way back in for damage.
We trade some for keeping pressure. Same case here.

So lets assume the other scenario. You know I'm going to tech 100% of the time, but you beat me in the neutral or are an armored monster.
Why wouldn't you throw? You get a free restand and can keep pressure without them having any obvious answer.
Some characters rely on being a distance away. Throw enables that, either for a cost or, if you guess right, for free.

Why do you keep bring up scenarios and guarantees like F/T lacks mobility and Reptile lacks approach? We don't even know how the game works, why put these assumptions (which are almost entirely baseless) out there?

 

[haketh]

In MK9, you could not mash both buttons or press both buttons in rapid succession, it would only register one button. For all we know so far, throws in MKX are close to the same.

Okay @tylerlansdown for throw techs in MKX do they work like they did in MK9? And if a throw is Meterburned Do you still tech them like you normally do?

 

[BigMilk]

Tech the throw.

Logical answer but will you be able to tech a throw while you are being comboed?

 

[Crathen]

If it's "confirmed" that you can tech throws while being juggled that really tones the usefulness down , with how strong the breakers are as option i don't see the high level play to risk wasting a bar to get a 50/50 that if teched wrong MAYBE gets you a OH/Low wich one of those 2 options take another bar to combo off it ( see reptiles overhead claw ).

There's a fuckton more little things on how the throw reset can be used that we DON'T know until we got the game in our hands.

Is it that hard waiting 2 months?

 

[Braindead]

In MK9, you could not mash both buttons or press both buttons in rapid succession, it would only register one button. For all we know so far, throws in MKX are close to the same.

Well I must have been one hella lucky person because I teched a lot of throws just by mashing lol.

 

[KiD INsAnitY]

No whip, you're wrong.

Being able to tech a throw during a juggle is extremely different from being able to tech a normal one. If I want to tech a normal throw then I'm gambling on him actually going for a throw and not blocking, so I can eat a new combo for free if they go for a hit instead of throw.

But during a juggle, I have nothing to lose if I mash the tech. I'm being juggled any way, why don't I mash?

About the 50/50 I can just mash 1+2 or 1+3, whatever it is, to get me out of both options.

Do you see it now?

Smh...First offf just mashing the tech doesn't mean you are going to get it ,You may or may not tech due to your timing, what if you have to tech at the exact time your opp throws? Mashing isn't an effective method
Second you most likely have to guess on the direction you will be thrown, You can mash all you want but that doesn't mean shit if you don't tech in the same direction...
Third I highly doubt that you will mash tech EVERY SINGLE TIME you are juggled...It may seem simple to you in theory but in game it won't be that easy and simple to just "mash n tech"

 

[coolwhip]

No whip, you're wrong.

Being able to tech a throw during a juggle is extremely different from being able to tech a normal one. If I want to tech a normal throw then I'm gambling on him actually going for a throw and not blocking, so I can eat a new combo for free if they go for a hit instead of throw.

But during a juggle, I have nothing to lose if I mash the tech. I'm being juggled any way, why don't I mash?

About the 50/50 I can just mash 1+2 or 1+3, whatever it is, to get me out of both options.

Do you see it now?

Who the hell told you that mashing two buttons at once would be able to cover both options? Yes, you have nothing to lose if you mash the tech if you're being juggled...so mash away. You still have to know which way your opponent is going to throw you (the part about mashing two buttons at once sounds dumb, no offense). The consequences for your mashing would be that you might guess wrong. Also, we don't know how strict the timing to tech the throw is, and if indeed it is, your opponent could mess with you by maybe going for the throw ender sooner than you think.

Don't throw around things like "you're wrong" when you have no idea how the hell the game works. I'm not saying I'm right but what I'm saying is still fairly logical: You still have to make a guess. Now, you might claim that you shouldn't be able to, and I'd be fine with that, but A) we don't know how rewarding MB throws are and if they are really rewarding and lead to safe options, then maybe you should be able to tech them, and B) You're saying it's useless, which is factually incorrect. It obviously has its uses since you still have to guess which way you're going to get thrown (again, your mash two buttons at once thing sounds super dumb, unless NRS really make such a stupid oversight).

If you were simply saying you don't think they should be techable, like Haketh is, that's fine. But you're not.

 

[coolwhip]

Well I must have been one hella lucky person because I teched a lot of throws just by mashing lol.

We all teched throws by mashing. But you couldn't mash two buttons at once and cover both options. You should know that after 4 years, and you should also know that you can't throw around definitive statements like a know-it-all about MKX when you haven't played it.

 

[coolwhip]

Theirs a difference between the usefulness of a throw being used in neutral or in pressure situations because compared to throws during a combo, it's a lot easier to keep an eye out for a throw & tech it when all you have to worry about is the throw seeing how this isn't a game with quick restands or resets in general like in Skull Girls, Marvel, Melty what have you. I admit useless is to strong of a word but I'm "leaning" towards the weaker side of use with what we know so far.

I will give you this this really depends on how the tech system works in MKX, I could be totally wrong & you could be right who knows.

That's fine. It's perfectly understandable to think they shouldn't be techable. But like I said, you still have to make guesses, and what if the standing reset option has a tons of safe rewarding options? For example, the MB throw option in itself might lead to a guessing game of whether your opponent is going to hit a normal -- doesn't have to include a 50/50 high/low option -- or actually throw you again, which means if you try to tech another throw and he attacks you get blown up. Then teching the throw would be one way to prevent that. I can't say with any certainty whether it's good idea or not, I'm honestly indifferent at this point until I play the game, but I'm just explaining why stating that it's "useless" is a bit rich.

 

[kabelfritz]

Looks like this thread has more luck surviving, so ill just copy my post from earlier:

first, i dont think the idea is all bad. but 1 meter is too cheap. you build it really quick, and it doesnt hurt you to spend it. i dont want this game to be turned into a vortex fest, which would take a lot of skill factor away. (for all of you who dont know yet: juggle combos can be ended with throws now, so basically every combo can be a vortex).

make it cost 2 bars, cause its as powerful as a breaker for sure, and you really gotta think if you wanna spend 2 bars for maybe getting nothing. if you ask me: will you spend 1 bar for possibly getting another 40% of damage, i will always say yes. its 20% average for a bar. with 2 bars, its average 10% for a bar, (which still is normally my meter burn border), but you still will think twice if youre not better off going for oki for free, or save for breaker/MB Combos. a two bar reset will only be used in situations where high risk/reward is needed, like for a comeback. that would even add to the hype factor instead of making the game a dull vortex fest.

(side notes:

another problem that might exist is with dot characters. there are probably setups where you can acid puke/sunbeam etc., then mb throw the opponent and lock him in it with a blockstring.

also characters with high meterless combos might profit from MB throws more than others, which leads to balance Problems)

 

[ChaosTheory]

In MK9, you could not mash both buttons or press both buttons in rapid succession, it would only register one button. For all we know so far, throws in MKX are close to the same.

True. But it still would make me wonder why the juggled opponent is able to reduce your chances of landing a throw by 50% simply by mashing a button (if it's like MK9 which is what I'm hearing).

Beyond MB throws.... we've seen Sub use throw as his preferred ender in Cryomancer. If you could mash a button and guaranteed reduce that to 50% success, that just seems odd to me.

 

[coolwhip]

Okay @tylerlansdown for throw techs in MKX do they work like they did in MK9?

I can answer that. Yes they do. Paulo confirmed it on numerous occasions and so did 16 Bit.