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Everything wrong with Jade

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
I’d say she out-damages Kitana, D’Vorah, Shao Kahn, Sub-Zero, Kabal, Frost, Cassie, Johnny, ...and that’s all I can think of off the top of my head. That’s considering her punishes into mix and her zoning game, as well as the ease of opening up the opponent. You can totally disagree because “outdamage over the course of a match” is such an abstract idea with no clear metrics to define who does more. The only characters I can think of who definitely put out more damage consistently are Geras, Sonya, Shang, and Lao.
Wut.

Sub-Zero sneezes out crushing blows. Cassie hits like a truck into the a similar setup jade gets (+4 but she has 9f mid) Johnny if he hits you can melt you as well.

Kitanna if she gets a punish takes a lot of damage as well.

Kabal takes at least 24-31 percent everytime he touches you, and he has a 9f punish as well as a 7f full combo meterless punish if needed.

I'm loving the points you are making in here, but I have to fact check you on those...
 

karaokelove

Dead or alive, you’re coming with me.
Premium Supporter
@karaokelove

Everything you are saying is correct. EXCEPT B343~razerrang (non ex) does not jail into a b3 unless it's in the corner. You need to spend that bar.

Be careful if you are getting away with that.

1 Bar 18percent punishes into chip is a low punish. That's just a fact.

Know what would make me happy? Make 124 special cancellable into shadow kick. That way I can take just a bit more damage and setup her krushing blow everytime I hit it and get a little mind game going.
I’ve tested extensively and it seems that a micro-dash-cancel allows it to still connect midscreen. Like, you don’t even really see the dash start to come out before you cancel. Tested against walking backwards, dashing backwards, and fast pokes. Still need to test against certain moves, like Scorpion’s teleport, various parries, etc.
 

karaokelove

Dead or alive, you’re coming with me.
Premium Supporter
Wut.

Sub-Zero sneezes out crushing blows. Cassie hits like a truck into the a similar setup jade gets (+4 but she has 9f mid) Johnny if he hits you can melt you as well.

Kitanna if she gets a punish takes a lot of damage as well.

Kabal takes at least 24-31 percent everytime he touches you, and he has a 9f punish as well as a 7f full combo meterless punish if needed.

I'm loving the points you are making in here, but I have to fact check you on those...
Again, there’s not really even a point in discussing “outdamages over the course of a match” because it’s a nonsense term. If I win the match, I outdamaged you, and I win way more matches with Jade than I lose. Those characters average around 25%-30% with their kombos and punishes, yes, but they don’t have Jade’s insane zoning or space control. None of those characters can zone Jade, so they’re going to be eating constant chip and hits from glaives. And every time they end with negative frames, Jade gets her b343 mix and staggers.

I can understand where the arguments are coming from, but as a former D’Vorah main who did quite well with the character, I know those little hits add up, and Jade is very good at keeping those hits coming.
 

TierHero

Official Jade Downplayer
31% midscreen is significant, and I’m able
to land it consistently. And because it’s a 28-frame startup, it’s not too difficult to confirm into the 2nd hit on hit or anything else on block. It’s excellent as a whiff punisher against a lot of dialed-in strings, whiffed specials, and as an anti-wakeup.
31% midscreen for a bar is average, not significant, but thats beside the point. Regardless of whether or not you in your matches can land the move, there is a reason you don't see it being consistently landed in high level play. What's to hit confirm about the string? F2 and F21 are both punishable on block and F2 can be flawless blocked on reaction so that F21 or any of her other unsafe specials don't come out and ur left in punish city. It's also too slow to be considered an "excellent" whiff punisher.
When I say “theory crafting” I mean literally just taking her moves as they appear on paper; looking directly at the frames and damage without any consideration for what she can do in an actual match against a human opponent. You see a shitty 18% 1-bar punish, where I see an easy-to-confirm unbreakable 18% into an unavoidable stagger, 50/50, throw mixup. The damage isn’t coming from a single chain of kombo’d moves like with every other character, but you’re still going to land the extra damage more than someone like Baraka whose kombos are constantly and immediately broken out of. It’s also very easy to purposefully land her 124 KB as a punish.
This analysis and breakdown of damage potential and mixups can be done with any character in the cast. You can go down the rabbit hole and deeply explore every character in the same way you did with Jade. Cassie, Jax, and Johnny can do 30%+ into restands, Subzero has resets and nice KBs, Liu hits hard, Noob hits hard, Jacqui hits hard, Erron hits hard into setups, Cetrion does decent damage into nice setups for her zone. If you are willing to put aside raw data and examine tactics, then you need to do the same for the rest of the cast for a fair comparisonn. When you do, you'll still find that she falls short in the damage department compared to most. Saying otherwise, at this point, is just being disingenuous.
 

seanpon

Noob
31% midscreen is significant, and I’m able
to land it consistently. And because it’s a 28-frame startup, it’s not too difficult to confirm into the 2nd hit on hit or anything else on block. It’s excellent as a whiff punisher against a lot of dialed-in strings, whiffed specials, and as an anti-wakeup.

When I say “theory crafting” I mean literally just taking her moves as they appear on paper; looking directly at the frames and damage without any consideration for what she can do in an actual match against a human opponent. You see a shitty 18% 1-bar punish, where I see an easy-to-confirm unbreakable 18% into an unavoidable stagger, 50/50, throw mixup. The damage isn’t coming from a single chain of kombo’d moves like with every other character, but you’re still going to land the extra damage more than someone like Baraka whose kombos are constantly and immediately broken out of. It’s also very easy to purposefully land her 124 KB as a punish.

I’d say she out-damages Kitana, D’Vorah, Shao Kahn, Sub-Zero, Kabal, Frost, Cassie, Johnny, ...and that’s all I can think of off the top of my head. That’s considering her punishes into mix and her zoning game, as well as the ease of opening up the opponent. You can totally disagree because “outdamage over the course of a match” is such an abstract idea with no clear metrics to define who does more. The only characters I can think of who definitely put out more damage consistently are Geras, Sonya, Shang, and Lao.
I don't think were even talking about the same character... Jade does not out damage Kitana, kabal, cassie, etc.... She only gets 18% for 1 bar, which is pretty bad. Your trying to justify it by saying she gets a mixup afterwards, her B3 string is no where as near good as liu kang's staggers to justify having a free mixup instead of more damage. If you go for a B3 after Ex razor rang they can just jump and punish, or if you go for a throw they can neutral duck upper cut. Your opponent can blow you up way harder than the 18% you could get. And saying you land the F21 consistently shows your playing opponents without fingers lol. That shiit doesn't land raw at all at the highest levels unless you get lucky, I can count in one hand how many times a raw F21 landed in a tournament.
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
I’ve tested extensively and it seems that a micro-dash-cancel allows it to still connect midscreen. Like, you don’t even really see the dash start to come out before you cancel. Tested against walking backwards, dashing backwards, and fast pokes. Still need to test against certain moves, like Scorpion’s teleport, various parries, etc.
I’ve tested extensively and it seems that a micro-dash-cancel allows it to still connect midscreen. Like, you don’t even really see the dash start to come out before you cancel. Tested against walking backwards, dashing backwards, and fast pokes. Still need to test against certain moves, like Scorpion’s teleport, various parries, etc.
Using raiden as a dummy here and he can just walk backwards. Maybe character specific?
 

karaokelove

Dead or alive, you’re coming with me.
Premium Supporter
Using raiden as a dummy here and he can just walk backwards. Maybe character specific?
Could be, I can’t even remember who all I’ve tested it against. I do in in real matches against Lao, Kabal, Scarlet, and Shang consistently, though that could be due to the opponent not knowing how to avoid it. Are you sure the dash is coming out?
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Could be, I can’t even remember who all I’ve tested it against. I do in in real matches against Lao, Kabal, Scarlet, and Shang consistently. Are you sure the dash is coming out?
yes because the b3 is connecting if I don't move. I have it up against skarlet now as well. So here is what I think is happening. If you do this thing tight enough to beat a d1 poke, the opponent can walk back (even skarlet I have it up right now)

but if you dash cancel a bit later, you will beat the walk back but the d1 will beat you.

It's not a bad little mind game.
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Cassie, Jax, and Johnny can do 30%+ into restands
Johnny doesnt break 30 % midscreen, even less so if he wants to restand midscreen. Jax needs to to spend both bars to just get 30 % in GB. Jax does not break 30% without a Krushing Blow. If he wants to do a restand corner combo without KB its between 23-25% depending on execution. You need to consider ressources spent. Johnny can deal upwards of 38 % from both bars spend sacrificing restand and thus making him unable to combo for a while. Jade gets the same meterless corner damage as Jax does - and he's a rushdown. You make it sound like it's stuff that they can just do over and over again. Jax has some of the worst damage compared to ressources spent in GB

Stop spreading false information to further your own agenda. I think Jade lacks a good punisher. I dont think she needs it though - this character is good, people have success with her, she's a pain in the ass to deal with. I wouldnt mind her amped glaives linking into a 21 into Deadly Butterfly to give a decent chunk of damage from b3 starter, maybe a 21-23 %. But she should abso-fucking-lutely not have high damage.
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
@karaokelove You know I respect you as a player and I truly appreciate what you're doing here, bringing strategy and trying to be positive about the character.
But when you claim you land F2 consistently I want your monthly paycheck to have a block button and you to take 28f to be able to grab it.
You'd starve to death, friendo.

Record some matches, show us how you hit anyone skilled with a 28f move. Yeah I hit randoms with it too, but that's the extent of it.

Here's the deal, I -want- Jade to be as amazing as you and some others on this website want to make everyone believe. But she isn't.
Things you say are remotely true, sure, you can do all that stuff, I used to punish with b343-glaive and then f3/throw/exglaive but that doesn't help against characters who literally just delete your healthbar.

Yeah you're skilled enough to make D'Vorah work and I bet your Jade is amazing too, and I know that Jade feels like a god after how bad D'Vorah is right now.

Just please don't say that she's perfect and needs no changes in a game of Geras, Sonya, Scorpion or Jacqui because you're seriously making yourself seem disingenuous.
 

karaokelove

Dead or alive, you’re coming with me.
Premium Supporter
I’m not saying she’s perfect or amazing, I’m saying she’s not nearly as bad as the downplayers in this thread would have you believe. The issue with the damage output if the top 4 or 5 is an issue with those characters; they need to be toned down.

When I first tried Jade, I dropped her almost immediately after seeing her punish damage. Thankfully I picked her back up. An 18% 1-bar punish is absolute ass, but when you consider all her tools together and how defensive she can be while also having a strong stagger game, I think her damage is fine. Like I’ve said several times, landing a 37% Lao kombo is not how she is designed. If you like seeing big numbers on the screen then play Geras or Lao or Sonya. But you don’t need big numbers to win a match when it’s so easy to land so many smaller hits. I don’t care if my opponent hits me with a 45% KB kombo as long as I win the match. And Jade puts out enough consistent overall damage to win those matches.

f21 is not bad. D’Vorah makes her f2 work, Shao Kahn makes his f1 work (and it’s a high!) and Jade can make her f2 work. It’s a rhythm and timing thing. Again, when I talk about theory crafting, yes on paper it looks bad. But you play games and you learn the rhythm of the move and you learn when it’s a good time to throw it out. If you just throw it out aggressively in the neutral like an idiot then yes, you’re going to get blown up. But it’s a solid tool that just requires a moderate amount of brainpower to use.
 

Sanjo

Noob
@karaokelove

Just please don't say that she's perfect and needs no changes in a game of Geras, Sonya, Scorpion or Jacqui because you're seriously making yourself seem disingenuous.
And here's your problem. You are ALWAYS comparing Jade to those near-broken characters that need a fix. My guess is you won't be happy until she is broken enough to carry her players. Then you will probably complain about the tier whore banGwaggoning players picking up Jade while you will argue that you were maining her when "she was trash-tier". Seen that before... The mid tiers of this game are fine. Nerf the broken tier, buff the low tier, tweak some little things in the middle. And for the time being, just enjoy the game as it is.
 

Hellbringer

On your knees!
Premium Supporter
@karaokelove You know I respect you as a player and I truly appreciate what you're doing here, bringing strategy and trying to be positive about the character.
But when you claim you land F2 consistently I want your monthly paycheck to have a block button and you to take 28f to be able to grab it.
You'd starve to death, friendo.

Record some matches, show us how you hit anyone skilled with a 28f move. Yeah I hit randoms with it too, but that's the extent of it.

Here's the deal, I -want- Jade to be as amazing as you and some others on this website want to make everyone believe. But she isn't.
Things you say are remotely true, sure, you can do all that stuff, I used to punish with b343-glaive and then f3/throw/exglaive but that doesn't help against characters who literally just delete your healthbar.

Yeah you're skilled enough to make D'Vorah work and I bet your Jade is amazing too, and I know that Jade feels like a god after how bad D'Vorah is right now.

Just please don't say that she's perfect and needs no changes in a game of Geras, Sonya, Scorpion or Jacqui because you're seriously making yourself seem disingenuous.
You need to stop blaming the character. Thats the first step.
 

seanpon

Noob
I’m not saying she’s perfect or amazing, I’m saying she’s not nearly as bad as the downplayers in this thread would have you believe. The issue with the damage output if the top 4 or 5 is an issue with those characters; they need to be toned down.

When I first tried Jade, I dropped her almost immediately after seeing her punish damage. Thankfully I picked her back up. An 18% 1-bar punish is absolute ass, but when you consider all her tools together and how defensive she can be while also having a strong stagger game, I think her damage is fine. Like I’ve said several times, landing a 37% Lao kombo is not how she is designed. If you like seeing big numbers on the screen then play Geras or Lao or Sonya. But you don’t need big numbers to win a match when it’s so easy to land so many smaller hits. I don’t care if my opponent hits me with a 45% KB kombo as long as I win the match. And Jade puts out enough consistent overall damage to win those matches.

f21 is not bad. D’Vorah makes her f2 work, Shao Kahn makes his f1 work (and it’s a high!) and Jade can make her f2 work. It’s a rhythm and timing thing. Again, when I talk about theory crafting, yes on paper it looks bad. But you play games and you learn the rhythm of the move and you learn when it’s a good time to throw it out. If you just throw it out aggressively in the neutral like an idiot then yes, you’re going to get blown up. But it’s a solid tool that just requires a moderate amount of brainpower to use.
You do realize when jade gets hit with a 45% combo the match goes completely downhill from here, she really needs a life lead to play lame and zone, she has no legit comeback capabilities when she's that far down the hole. She doesn't do "consistent overall damage" when fighting characters that can reliably get around her zoning, she can't trade comfortably for example with noob saibot without the fear of eating a 35% teleport combo. D'vorah and Shao Kahn do not make their F2 or F1 work, we never see these characters in tournaments lol. F2 sucks anyway, its so risky to use especially since the opponent can jump over it, which is incredibly stupid considering you can see the pole clip their leg 100% of the time. Like I said, F2 is almost never useful against someone who knows what their doing. Just go back to playing randoms online and hit them with that F2, you've contributed almost nothing to this discussion other than saying "F2 is actually good" when its clearly not.
 

Hellbringer

On your knees!
Premium Supporter
You do realize when jade gets hit with a 45% combo the match goes completely downhill from here, she really needs a life lead to play lame and zone, she has no legit comeback capabilities when she's that far down the hole. She doesn't do "consistent overall damage" when fighting characters that can reliably get around her zoning, she can't trade comfortably for example with noob saibot without the fear of eating a 35% teleport combo. D'vorah and Shao Kahn do not make their F2 or F1 work, we never see these characters in tournaments lol. F2 sucks anyway, its so risky to use especially since the opponent can jump over it, which is incredibly stupid considering you can see the pole clip their leg 100% of the time. Like I said, F2 is almost never useful against someone who knows what their doing. Just go back to playing randoms online and hit them with that F2, you've contributed almost nothing to this discussion other than saying "F2 is actually good" when its clearly not.
He doesnt say f2 is good tho just that its not useless. Could be that i missed something so sorry if i missed reading that.

I played his jade so he probably means because i get hit alot of times by f2 is good but the matter of fact is my reaction is shit when im stoned so ppl really shouldnt use me of an example how good something is. And i was playing kabal who i just picked up days ago lol.

But as far as i can tell for the sets we had i can understand why f21 is not that great, not only cause its slow but also because of the gap after it.
Either way i dont have that much mu experience against jade to go deep into detail, but she seems to be good in the right hands.
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
And here's your problem. You are ALWAYS comparing Jade to those near-broken characters that need a fix. My guess is you won't be happy until she is broken enough to carry her players. Then you will probably complain about the tier whore banGwaggoning players picking up Jade while you will argue that you were maining her when "she was trash-tier". Seen that before... The mid tiers of this game are fine. Nerf the broken tier, buff the low tier, tweak some little things in the middle. And for the time being, just enjoy the game as it is.
Or you could make all sorts of baseless assumptions, that works too.
It helps to read before you post because then you'll understand who you're talking to and what you're talking about. I hate to repeat myself to people who come in here and try to dismiss me as some sort of fool whose hobby is trying to make Jade look worse than she is.

No. She's one of the more balanced characters, but she's not currently competitive.

Yes, I compare Jade to the rest of MK11, you'd have to be a special sort of special to not do so.

Go lab her, read what people said, and then post so you don't say things to people which are not only insulting but completely the opposite of what they are about.

You need to stop blaming the character. Thats the first step.
You fought me, you know I don't "blame" the character. It's the player winning or losing not the character. When I talk about Jade I compare her to the standard of the game, and to the current tournament-dominant standard characters, she's not viable.
Your character also having issues does not invalidate the issues of another character. I don't even understand why you are in the Jade thread.
I don't go into the Lao thread to tell you what to want changed about him.
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
I’m not saying she’s perfect or amazing, I’m saying she’s not nearly as bad as the downplayers in this thread would have you believe. The issue with the damage output if the top 4 or 5 is an issue with those characters; they need to be toned down.
I've said this countless times, yes.
Does nobody read a thread before they start posting these days?

Fine, let me just go ahead and repeat myself a 157th time too.

I was reluctant to address Jade's issues because the game just got released and hasn't received a balance patch yet. We need to see in which direction the game's meta is intended to move ie what NRS wants: more buffs or more nerfs, are they about maintaining a balance of culling the overperformance or will they set standards at a Geras level and move characters towards that level?
Even after a patch happens it should be difficult to tell from the player side. Which is part of what makes NRS so difficult. Their communication. In MOBAs you have Stats sites where you can see what's performing well compared to what and the players themselves can literally predict / determine what will be changed.

When I talk about Jade I literally compare her and I point out her problems mercilessly and without any pink clouds in it.

When I first tried Jade, I dropped her almost immediately after seeing her punish damage. Thankfully I picked her back up. An 18% 1-bar punish is absolute ass, but when you consider all her tools together and how defensive she can be while also having a strong stagger game, I think her damage is fine. Like I’ve said several times, landing a 37% Lao kombo is not how she is designed. If you like seeing big numbers on the screen then play Geras or Lao or Sonya. But you don’t need big numbers to win a match when it’s so easy to land so many smaller hits. I don’t care if my opponent hits me with a 45% KB kombo as long as I win the match. And Jade puts out enough consistent overall damage to win those matches.
You block anything except for meterburned glaive from Jade and it's your turn. She doesn't have anything that makes her "more defensive" than Geras who can d1 out of things that not many other characters can, and he has the comeback factor of a lifetime.
She doesn't have any compelling special moves that aren't completely punishable. Glaives can be ducked. You talk about them like some sort of salvation but you'll face someone that knows this character and you'll be eating dirt for your shenanigans, I can guarantee you that.
And no lol she doesn't put out consistent damage. Why do you think even Waz dropped her? She's not competitive right now.

f21 is not bad. D’Vorah makes her f2 work, Shao Kahn makes his f1 work (and it’s a high!) and Jade can make her f2 work. It’s a rhythm and timing thing. Again, when I talk about theory crafting, yes on paper it looks bad. But you play games and you learn the rhythm of the move and you learn when it’s a good time to throw it out. If you just throw it out aggressively in the neutral like an idiot then yes, you’re going to get blown up. But it’s a solid tool that just requires a moderate amount of brainpower to use.
You're comparing her, talking about characters that literally nobody who's interested in winning has played in any majors so far. And with good reason.
Can we stop this charade and just admit she needs help? And you're even saying that I'm an idiot for "not using it right".

Ask Sajam.
"Just gotta find the right way to play'em"

Why is it that other character communities are so cooperative and I keep running into people who keep being disingenuous?
 
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Hellbringer

On your knees!
Premium Supporter
You fought me, you know I don't "blame" the character. It's the player winning or losing not the character. When I talk about Jade I compare her to the standard of the game, and to the current tournament-dominant standard characters, she's not viable.
Your character also having issues does not invalidate the issues of another character. I don't even understand why you are in the Jade thread.
I don't go into the Lao thread to tell you what to want changed about him.
Am i telling what i want to change about jade? I even agreed that her f21 isnt good. Besides i post where the hell i want lol
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
Am i telling what i want to change about jade? I even agreed that her f21 isnt good. Besides i post where the hell i want lol
True, you weren't telling me that. Instead you were belittling me telling me that I'm blaming the character.
Very useful contribution to this thread.
 

TierHero

Official Jade Downplayer
Johnny doesnt break 30 % midscreen, even less so if he wants to restand midscreen.
Neither does Jade without F21 or KBs and a bar. Johnny does get more damage midscreen into setups, compared to Jade's 18% 1 bar reset, and even moreso in the corner.

Jax does not break 30% without a Krushing Blow. If he wants to do a restand corner combo without KB its between 23-25% depending on execution. You need to consider ressources spent.
Good point, but I never specified resources in my post. Still, I've considered it. Jax has more resources to spend for higher dmg and when he's out of those resources he does comparable dmg to Jade except he has access to better mix-up tools (9fr mid stagger, overhead-low, cmd grab in one variation) with slightly more dmg into setups. Overall, Jax still nets more dmg than Jade.

You make it sound like it's stuff that they can just do over and over again. Jax has some of the worst damage compared to ressources spent in GB
"Cassie, Jax, and Johnny can do 30%+ into restands" This is the only part of my entire post where I mentioned Johnny or Jax. It's not "false information" if the statement is factual. I was just pointing out that those chars can do a thing that Jade can't, resources or not. It's not that deep. Only point was showing examples of chars that are above Jade in terms of dmg potential and setups which was the direction of the convo if you weren't following the whole convo. Not to upplay Johnny or Jax or spread misinformation.

I think Jade lacks a good punisher. I dont think she needs it though - this character is good, people have success with her, she's a pain in the ass to deal with.
As a Jaded main, the damage is crippling. She doesn't need a good punisher or high damage, but she should atleast have passable dmg. 18% Is just not passable.

Stop spreading factual information to further your own agenda.
IMA DOWNPLAY JADE TILL I DIE
 

DrFolmer

AKA Uncle Kano
Neither does Jade without F21 or KBs and a bar. Johnny does get more damage midscreen into setups, compared to Jade's 18% 1 bar reset, and even moreso in the corner.


Good point, but I never specified resources in my post. Still, I've considered it. Jax has more resources to spend for higher dmg and when he's out of those resources he does comparable dmg to Jade except he has access to better mix-up tools (9fr mid stagger, overhead-low, cmd grab in one variation) with slightly more dmg into setups. Overall, Jax still nets more dmg than Jade.


"Cassie, Jax, and Johnny can do 30%+ into restands" This is the only part of my entire post where I mentioned Johnny or Jax. It's not "false information" if the statement is factual. I was just pointing out that those chars can do a thing that Jade can't, resources or not. It's not that deep. Only point was showing examples of chars that are above Jade in terms of dmg potential and setups which was the direction of the convo if you weren't following the whole convo. Not to upplay Johnny or Jax or spread misinformation.



As a Jaded main, the damage is crippling. She doesn't need a good punisher or high damage, but she should atleast have passable dmg. 18% Is just not passable.


IMA DOWNPLAY JADE TILL I DIE
I dont disagree with Jaded struggling. But her discussing Emerald Defender we need take into consideration that her keep away game and space control nets her a lot of damage on the opponent trying to approach. But I'm not a fan of Zoners dishing out tons of damage. Johnny's damage is already on the average side of things midscreen and becomes good in the corner. Jax damage output is kinda underwhelming excluding Hunker Down's momentum with heat. I'm just saying that if we throw 30 % dmg combos at Jade all of the sudden - she's gonna be pretty busted. The main reason Sonya is such a piece of shit is the fact that she deals top 3 damage while having top 3 zoning.

Just tried Jaded, and shit the damage is poop. If bf1 could link into a jab combo starter that would help both variations, and Jaded could do a grounded combo that ends with 21bf3 (this deals a good chunk actually) - have it work a bit like Kung Jin's Shaolin variation in that regard