Everything wrong with Jade

[Wrenchfarm]

Everyone always clutches their pearls when you discuss buffing Jade. "Oh, we can't give her a juggle, her reach is too good!" or "her OH/low mix needs to be unsafe and lead to no damage on one option, that's how she's honest." Meanwhile Scorpion is converting his massive B1 whiff punishes into 33%+ combos every hit while Sonya and Erron Black feed you into the safe ultra-mix every time they touch you. Even Skarlet (a solid mid-tier) has a string that launches, and she has similar range to Jade.

I like Jade. I think she's at a great power level to make a fun and thoughtful fighting game. I'd love it if all the characters in the game were closer to Jade in terms of tools and risk/reward. But that's not MK11, and if they're not going to tone the top tiers down, we need to bring her up to their level because you are out of your mind if you think Jade is as competitive a character as Sonya, Erron, Geras, etc.

 

[GLoRToR]

This is actually why I wasn't very keen on big changes in my own list. I think she personally falls into the higher end of mid tier range. She's got very exploitable stuff, but the fact that despite this, people still place her up there means something important is there in her game. And I don't disagree.

People who think she's better than she is never labbed her is all.
She's not horrible, and I want to see what the actual broken and actual horrible characters will get changed before I can wholeheartedly speak on her kit in its entirety, but I think some of her stuff just makes no sense right now.

 

[Afumba]

My thoughts:

-b1 should be in the ballpark of -7
-b12 should be -15 with high pushback
-f2 should be about -10 and be 23f startup
-Fix 43 glaive on males

Those are my suggestions as necessary changes.

These would be great, although i am not sure if F21 needs to be safer.

Additionally i would like (Emerald Defender)

• better U2
• F21 hitbox fixed
• Shadowkick doing 8% damage, AMP Shadowkick 7%, both hits together ~140something damage
• F3 having a little more range
• Shadowkick KB requirement changed to "triggers after 2/3 SK have landed"
• 124 KB changed to trigger as counter or punish
• Butterfly -7 on block
• Parry faster

And maybe

• F41 having more pushback or be safer
• a B34

What i dont want is

• a launcher
• Shadowkick save on block

 

[THTB]

People who think she's better than she is never labbed her is all.
She's not horrible, and I want to see what the actual broken and actual horrible characters will get changed before I can wholeheartedly speak on her kit in its entirety, but I think some of her stuff just makes no sense right now.

The idea that no one labs Jade is a false take, considering I've seen people mention Jade has been much more popular since Combo Breaker. There's definitely no way no one has looked at her kit to fight it.

These would be great, although i am not sure if F21 needs to be safer.

Additionally i would like (Emerald Defender)

• better U2
• F21 hitbox fixed
• Shadowkick doing 8% damage, AMP Shadowkick 7%, both hits together ~140something damage
• F3 having a little more range
• Shadowkick KB requirement changed to "triggers after 2/3 SK have landed"
• 124 KB changed to trigger as counter or punish
• Butterfly -7 on block
• Parry faster

And maybe

• F41 having more pushback or be safer
• a B34

What i dont want is

• a launcher
• Shadowkick save on block

To clarify, I'm only talking f2, which doesn't launch.

 

[ImperatrixSindel]

I play Jade primarily and I'd say that while she is a pretty solid mid tier imo, there are two things that would be pretty huge: speed up f2 a little and give her a little more damage overall. She's high risk for low reward most of the time at the moment and with a few tweaks I think she'd be fine.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Is there a reason people don't flock to the Jaded version of this character?

 

[GLoRToR]

Is there a reason people don't flock to the Jaded version of this character?

Cancels are negative and vault gets blown up by low profiling moves including the mundane d2

 

[Wrenchfarm]

Is there a reason people don't flock to the Jaded version of this character?

Can't speak for anyone else, but I just don't see how pole vault can substitute for the loss of air glaive. That move is so crucial to her zoning, damage, and general control of the match that I don't ever want to give it up. Besides that, pole vault is unsafe and its cancel shenanigans don't seem as strong as other characters that can cancel things.

Blazing nitro kick is a dump stat.

 

[GLoRToR]

The idea that no one labs Jade is a false take, considering I've seen people mention Jade has been much more popular since Combo Breaker. There's definitely no way no one has looked at her kit to fight it.

People who labbed her such as @Vslayer (who was also one of the biggest Jade haters until she sat down to explore the character) no longer think she's as good as previously.

But I think the significant part of this narrative is that apart from her frame data being all over the place and not having a proper bnb, she's fine. There are just so many much better characters on the roster currently that she feels underwhelming a lot of the time.

 

[Afumba]

The idea that no one labs Jade is a false take, considering I've seen people mention Jade has been much more popular since Combo Breaker. There's definitely no way no one has looked at her kit to fight it.

To clarify, I'm only talking f2, which doesn't launch.

Sry my bad. Just saw F2 and my mind went straight F21.

 

[THTB]

People who labbed her such as @Vslayer (who was also one of the biggest Jade haters until she sat down to explore the character) no longer think she's as good as previously.

But I think the significant part of this narrative is that apart from her frame data being all over the place and not having a proper bnb, she's fine. There are just so many much better characters on the roster currently that she feels underwhelming a lot of the time.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe she's like close to top tier...I think middle of the pack is accurate.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Cancels are negative and vault gets blown up by low profiling moves including the mundane d2

everyone's cancels are negative
Why do people think this is a "point"

If you have a cancel in this game... you're probably negative.

 

[OutworldKeith]

+ frames give her an opportunity to create more space and control it.

The only issue with her is crappy damage and her parry sucks as well as the KB.

 

[TierHero]

everyone's cancels are negative
Why do people think this is a "point"

If you have a cancel in this game... you're probably negative.

It's a point because the Jaded Variation has no other way of making her unsafe strings safe on block (Pole Vault can be punished). Many of her cancels aren't simply negative, but they're full combo punishable. Around -19 for her b1 cancel for example.

 

[GLoRToR]

everyone's cancels are negative
Why do people think this is a "point"

If you have a cancel in this game... you're probably negative.

Because Vault is her only safe special and it can be blown up on reaction. Adding that to how bad most of her normals are and how she does no damage and her frame data being trash overall she's hardly a tournament winning character right now.
Everything Jade does is reactable except for Air Glaives which is the move that carries her and which is why @THTB and myself are reluctant to put her anywhere below mid tier.
Her 2nd variation is easily bottom 10.

 

[Madog32]

everyone's cancels are negative
Why do people think this is a "point"

If you have a cancel in this game... you're probably negative.

Kabals dash cancels have 4f of recovery.

Jades vault cancels have 18f of recovery. Some are definitely better than others.

I've been using only Jaded from the beginning, and I've tried messing around with her vault cancels. There isn't really anything there. The visual cue is quite obvious, and with 18f of recovery, she'll be eating a full combo punish from almost anyone at sweep range (maybe even a little farther). Up close you just have to see her cancel with the flash and bop her with a D2 if you don't wanna bother to learn a standing punish. At 18f of recovery, she definitely can't continue with any sort of pressure after a cancel. She's better off letting the vault rock and hoping you're not mashing D2 or D1 so she can get the -4 on block from the blocked vault.

And trying to bait out a whiffed D2 is pretty useless. You can cancel the vault at B3/B2 range trying to get your opponent to D2 your vault and even if you make them whiff, you've got 18f of recovery before you can begin your best mid (11f of startup...18+11 = 29 frames after your cancel before you can attempt to do anything worth while).

Even trying to capitalize off of +frames from a landed hit into a vault cancel is useless. The most + this character can be on hit (in tourney variations, anyway) is +19 from her 21 string. With the recovery alone on Vault Cancel being 18f (ignoring the actual startup of the move) you'd be lucky to be at +1 ON HIT after spending a bar of defense. They really only seem to exist to save yourself from a zoning tool that ignore flash, like skarlets tongue or shang corpse drop. On a read. For a bar

I'd be hesitant to change much about Jade only because her other variation actually works. Her air rang could use a nerf, if only so she could receive other, more helpful changes, in the rest of her game plan. ED Jade is quite boring to play, and while Jaded is pretty crap, its much more fun to use. It would just be nice to actually have a legit game plan for that variation that doesn't make ED broken.

 

[Arqwart]

Until Air Glaive is nerfed out of "Absolutely Mandatory" tier, all other variations will be fringe picks at best.

I feel the core issue with Jade is her power budget is super weird and could use some notable readjustments.

 

[MagicMan357]

jade is top 10

 

[OceanOne]

Give her more melee options but as a trade off remove that zoning aura. There's no need for that in this game.

 

[Evil Canadian]

"WEAKNESSES

• Worst Flawless Block / Wakeup game with her u2 having hitbox issues and range problems and her u3 being low profiled."

Just wanna state here, Kollectors U2 literally can't hit airborne opponents. The thing you are supposed to use u2 for on wakeup. Jade has it easy!!!!!!

 

[Shale101]

Everyone always clutches their pearls when you discuss buffing Jade. "Oh, we can't give her a juggle, her reach is too good!" or "her OH/low mix needs to be unsafe and lead to no damage on one option, that's how she's honest." Meanwhile Scorpion is converting his massive B1 whiff punishes into 33%+ combos every hit while Sonya and Erron Black feed you into the safe ultra-mix every time they touch you. Even Skarlet (a solid mid-tier) has a string that launches, and she has similar range to Jade.

I like Jade. I think she's at a great power level to make a fun and thoughtful fighting game. I'd love it if all the characters in the game were closer to Jade in terms of tools and risk/reward. But that's not MK11, and if they're not going to tone the top tiers down, we need to bring her up to their level because you are out of your mind if you think Jade is as competitive a character as Sonya, Erron, Geras, etc.

I've been wanting to make a post about her "Reach" or her range. People are quick to say she has amazing range but I would argue she only has decent range. What exactly gives her good range I ask? Her Down 3, Back 2, and down 3 seem to be it for me. Her shadow kick has some of the worst range compared to other specials moves....example Kitana's square wave, sub zero slide, and many others. When I first played her I believed the hype.....she has the staff so she MUST have great range! Well......that doesn't exactly work out when other characters have such fast and long range forward advancing normal moves/combos. Erron Black zooms across the screen......Sub zero's advancing kick.....Scorpion's chain combos and spear throw.......Jax can fly across the screen and hit you as well at Kotal Kahn. Many characters have good range in this game.....I don't think Jade stands out at all upon further inspection.

 

[GLoRToR]

"WEAKNESSES

• Worst Flawless Block / Wakeup game with her u2 having hitbox issues and range problems and her u3 being low profiled."

Just wanna state here, Kollectors U2 literally can't hit airborne opponents. The thing you are supposed to use u2 for on wakeup. Jade has it easy!!!!!!

Jade's u2 doesn't hit crossups or corner meaty jumps on wakeup. It also fails to launch pushback moves on fb. It's t-rex as fuck.

 

[Hellbringer]

Kung laos u2 says hi

 

[GLoRToR]

Kung laos u2 says hi

Wrong thread. Lao can launch Sub's F4. Not Jade. Kitana and Skarlet also cannot. But this is the Jade thread not the "who else also has problems" thread.

I don't know why people think that their characters having issues somehow invalidates the issues of other characters.
That's not how this works lol

 

[Espio]

@GLoRToR Okay so here I am with my thoughts on Jade

Universal stuff:

Forward 4,1 made -5 on block. Leads to no damage on hit, no reason to be full combo punishable on block.

Back 1 to -7
Back 1, 2 to -10 with pushback. String leads to 9% on hit and has a normal interruptible gap so there's really no reason for it to be death on block, do no damage and a gigantic gap.

I'd rather lose the ability to combo her overhead and trade that for a -7 overhead that splats that's 20 frames. Use her fatal blow animation for this.

Standing 3 mid.

Up her damage by 2% on most things so her punish damage would kind of be from this: Back 3,4,3 ex glaive for about 22% damage.


I'm fine with her doing no damage if she's super safe. Low risk for low reward makes sense. Having a bunch of stuff that's high risk, low reward makes no sense from a design ethos perspective.



I would create a new variation called Deception( it reminds me of Deception era Jade) for people that want to RUSHDOWN. Emerald Defender itself needs no buffs or nerfs, just core stuff refined as I mentioned above.


Deception would have: Delia's Dance, Vanishing Winds and her Deadly Assassin string set.

What would this mean? It would mean Jade has a low special cancel up close that does good chip and makes a lot of her offense gapless with pushback for a bar -7. This would reinforce her meta game on Back 3,4,3,4 for offensive purposes.

Vanishing winds gives her an up close low special that also becomes a safe teleport for a bar of meter -7.

Deadly Assassin gives her a string off of back 2 and a solid string off standing 3 and amazing sweep.


This variation would be very offensive and benefit heavily from playing up close, chipping the opponent out as she would be able to abuse safe special cancels, safe teleport, better strings/sweep, but at the cost of just having her straight glaive and no real zoning presence, but really strong get in and up close game.


That gives her two strong, viable variations with two different play styles for people that wanna play rushdown and people that wanna zone.