Everything wrong with Jade

[TakeAChance]

So, what everyone is saying is, fix her U2 and give her slightly more damaging punishes?

 

[Wrenchfarm]

So, what everyone is saying is, fix her U2 and give her slightly more damaging punishes?

Since launch!

 

[methademic]

Jade is good

 

[GLoRToR]

@GLoRToR Okay so here I am with my thoughts on Jade

Universal stuff:

Forward 4,1 made -5 on block. Leads to no damage on hit, no reason to be full combo punishable on block.

Back 1 to -7
Back 1, 2 to -10 with pushback. String leads to 9% on hit and has a normal interruptible gap so there's really no reason for it to be death on block, do no damage and a gigantic gap.

I'd rather lose the ability to combo her overhead and trade that for a -7 overhead that splats that's 20 frames. Use her fatal blow animation for this.

Standing 3 mid.

Up her damage by 2% on most things so her punish damage would kind of be from this: Back 3,4,3 ex glaive for about 22% damage.


I'm fine with her doing no damage if she's super safe. Low risk for low reward makes sense. Having a bunch of stuff that's high risk, low reward makes no sense from a design ethos perspective.



I would create a new variation called Deception( it reminds me of Deception era Jade) for people that want to RUSHDOWN. Emerald Defender itself needs no buffs or nerfs, just core stuff refined as I mentioned above.


Deception would have: Delia's Dance, Vanishing Winds and her Deadly Assassin string set.

What would this mean? It would mean Jade has a low special cancel up close that does good chip and makes a lot of her offense gapless with pushback for a bar -7. This would reinforce her meta game on Back 3,4,3,4 for offensive purposes.

Vanishing winds gives her an up close low special that also becomes a safe teleport for a bar of meter -7.

Deadly Assassin gives her a string off of back 2 and a solid string off standing 3 and amazing sweep.


This variation would be very offensive and benefit heavily from playing up close, chipping the opponent out as she would be able to abuse safe special cancels, safe teleport, better strings/sweep, but at the cost of just having her straight glaive and no real zoning presence, but really strong get in and up close game.


That gives her two strong, viable variations with two different play styles for people that wanna play rushdown and people that wanna zone.

I agree with most of this, individually. But as changes the character definitely needs, not so much. Yeah, F41 is useless and B1 is only good in certain very specific situations. I'd rather have F21 made 20-22f and its hitbox fixed so it doesn't whiff inside its own hitbox on jumping opponents and 4 made a mid. Yeah 3 being a mid would also make sense and if I had my way b3434 would be just 3434 because of the number of times I get a b4 instead of b343 when using it after a backstep.

2% damage buff sounds good on paper, but I'd be careful with asking for an outright percentage damage buff and rather focus on giving her a viable launcher into a well scaled combo that does competitive damage comparable to the game's current standard, both as meterless and the metered increase.

Finally, low risk low reward sounds good in a certain sense but if you think about it, having to guess right 15 times to deal the same damage the opponent deals off of guessing right 5 times is not something you could possibly prefer over keeping her current risks and raising her rewards to it instead?

That variation sounds like fun. Frankly, I'd remove the shadow kick change from Jaded and give it Delia instead after fixing the hitbox on Vault and making cancels ... not trash.

 

[seanpon]

I agree with most of this, individually. But as changes the character definitely needs, not so much. Yeah, F41 is useless and B1 is only good in certain very specific situations. I'd rather have F21 made 20-22f and its hitbox fixed so it doesn't whiff inside its own hitbox on jumping opponents and 4 made a mid. Yeah 3 being a mid would also make sense and if I had my way b3434 would be just 3434 because of the number of times I get a b4 instead of b343 when using it after a backstep.

2% damage buff sounds good on paper, but I'd be careful with asking for an outright percentage damage buff and rather focus on giving her a viable launcher into a well scaled combo that does competitive damage comparable to the game's current standard, both as meterless and the metered increase.

Finally, low risk low reward sounds good in a certain sense but if you think about it, having to guess right 15 times to deal the same damage the opponent deals off of guessing right 5 times is not something you could possibly prefer over keeping her current risks and raising her rewards to it instead?

That variation sounds like fun. Frankly, I'd remove the shadow kick change from Jaded and give it Delia instead after fixing the hitbox on Vault and making cancels ... not trash.

the buffs you ask for are a little overboard. No one is going to take our complaints seriously when you suggest F21 being 20 frames, thats the same reason why everyone complains about sub zero's overhead. Not having F21 whiffing makes complete sense bc you can clearly see the pole hit jumping opponents sometimes. Also 4 being a mid doesn't need to happen. Are you really going to complain about the input of b3434. A lot of strings like these in the games have more difficult inputs for a reason, bc those strings are good and can be useful to stagger. All jade needs is more damage as a punish option, thats it, and she would be fine. If she could do around 25-27% damage as a punish compared to 18% she would already be so much better and more useful in matchup's where she gets bodied. Thats where I hope NRS focuses on, just make jade do better damage as a punish and she would be fine.

 

[TierHero]

All jade needs is more damage as a punish option, thats it, and she would be fine.

And she'll continue being represented like a single variation character with a linear playstyle. Her whiffing issues on f2 (airborne opponents), b2 (crouch blocking opponents), and pole vault in Jaded variation desperately need fixes. Also, making some of her normals not death on block would greatly help her core character in both variations without making her stupid.

 

[seanpon]

And she'll continue being represented like a single variation character with a linear playstyle. Her whiffing issues on f2 (airborne opponents), b2 (crouch blocking opponents), and pole vault in Jaded variation desperately need fixes. Also, making some of her normals not death on block would greatly help her core character in both variations without making her stupid.

I agree having F2 whiff on airborne opponents is stupid and should be fixed. But i'm just saying giving Jade a decent grounded punish in line with the rest of the cast would help her greatly. A lot of characters only have 1 usable variation anyway. I just hope NRS fixes Jade's biggest weakness which is low damage.

 

[GLoRToR]

the buffs you ask for are a little overboard. No one is going to take our complaints seriously when you suggest F21 being 20 frames, thats the same reason why everyone complains about sub zero's overhead. Not having F21 whiffing makes complete sense bc you can clearly see the pole hit jumping opponents sometimes. Also 4 being a mid doesn't need to happen. Are you really going to complain about the input of b3434. A lot of strings like these in the games have more difficult inputs for a reason, bc those strings are good and can be useful to stagger. All jade needs is more damage as a punish option, thats it, and she would be fine. If she could do around 25-27% damage as a punish compared to 18% she would already be so much better and more useful in matchup's where she gets bodied. Thats where I hope NRS focuses on, just make jade do better damage as a punish and she would be fine.

I'm not suggesting those changes. You can see the changes I want in a previous post. I'm saying those changes make more sense than adjusting frames on some unused normals and not addressing her issues.

F21 is unviable.
It's not a bad normal, it's not a situational normal, it's unusable because it's well within the reaction time of everyone ever and it doesn't even lead to good damage to begin with: The combo she gets off of it is way below what other characters get for way less risk. As far as I'm concerned she needs a new f2 so that it's not a fullscreen overhead. Sub's overhead just needs to be heavily unsafe like -18 and it will be fine.

4 being a mid doesn't need to happen, nor does anything suggested here. These are very marginal and unimportant changes compared to fixing her actual problems.
Yes, I'm really going to complain about the input of b3434. It's janky and it often gets me a b4 when I try to use it off of a backwalk because of how you have to mash those buttons instead of input them properly.

Yes, all Jade needs is a better punish and a safe normal to cancel into. Which is bf2 as I suggested. Making it -5 or so, would open up pressure opportunities for her and fix a lot of her unsafe strings. Then, giving it an unsafe MB option that launches for fair damage would solve all the rest of her issues.
BF2 -5
MB BF2 -12
This is literally the most logical, easiest and most elegant solution to her problems.

As for no-one on this website taking anything seriously, you need to get used to that.
It doesn't matter if you are right, it doesn't matter if you have factual evidence backing it up.
Some fuck will shitpost you, try to ridicule you or talk utter fucking nonsense.

Jade needs help. Not as much as some other characters, and with the stronger characters getting nerfed maybe she'll do even better, but she has a million issues with how negative she is, how all she can do is air glaive and how little she gets for how much risk.
If I had my way I'd fix all the issues with how bad her normals are right now but all I want is bf2 changes and b3434 to stop being so jank. The rest is just bonus.

 

[DrFolmer]

I mean they could something happen with glaives kinda like chakram for Kung Jin back in MKX. Hitconfirm off b3 string into ex glaives on hit, which would provide enough advantage for you to follow up with a jab string ender or something. The plus frames might be looked at though, we dont want Johnny Cage forceballs that combo start on hit lul

 

[Afumba]

I'm not suggesting those changes. You can see the changes I want in a previous post. I'm saying those changes make more sense than adjusting frames on some unused normals and not addressing her issues.

F21 is unviable.
It's not a bad normal, it's not a situational normal, it's unusable because it's well within the reaction time of everyone ever and it doesn't even lead to good damage to begin with: The combo she gets off of it is way below what other characters get for way less risk. As far as I'm concerned she needs a new f2 so that it's not a fullscreen overhead. Sub's overhead just needs to be heavily unsafe like -18 and it will be fine.

4 being a mid doesn't need to happen, nor does anything suggested here. These are very marginal and unimportant changes compared to fixing her actual problems.
Yes, I'm really going to complain about the input of b3434. It's janky and it often gets me a b4 when I try to use it off of a backwalk because of how you have to mash those buttons instead of input them properly.

Yes, all Jade needs is a better punish and a safe normal to cancel into. Which is bf2 as I suggested. Making it -5 or so, would open up pressure opportunities for her and fix a lot of her unsafe strings. Then, giving it an unsafe MB option that launches for fair damage would solve all the rest of her issues.
BF2 -5
MB BF2 -12
This is literally the most logical, easiest and most elegant solution to her problems.

As for no-one on this website taking anything seriously, you need to get used to that.
It doesn't matter if you are right, it doesn't matter if you have factual evidence backing it up.
Some fuck will shitpost you, try to ridicule you or talk utter fucking nonsense.

Jade needs help. Not as much as some other characters, and with the stronger characters getting nerfed maybe she'll do even better, but she has a million issues with how negative she is, how all she can do is air glaive and how little she gets for how much risk.
If I had my way I'd fix all the issues with how bad her normals are right now but all I want is bf2 changes and b3434 to stop being so jank. The rest is just bonus.

Not saying you are wrong or anything... but i would prefer 2-3% higher punish/damage on Shadowkick and "useless normals/strings" made better over a launcher. Honestly the last thing i want for her is a special launcher in her base kit.

I agree with the b3434 string though. Its not a big deal but i am not a fan of string inputs like this

 

[GLoRToR]

Not saying you are wrong or anything... but i would prefer 2-3% higher punish/damage on Shadowkick and "useless normals/strings" made better over a launcher. Honestly the last thing i want for her is a special launcher in her base kit.

I agree with the b3434 string though. Its not a big deal but i am not a fan of string inputs like this

Listen, if I had my way, all her normals would be standard issue well performing moves.
We need to be realistic in our requests. Who knows, maybe this time around they'll slap characters with overhauls and moves will be normalised across the board to a more narrow margin than before, but if I know one thing about nrs patching so far it's that they aren't busting their ass to make bad moves better.

The BF2 change is the single most relevant thing you can do to this character that isn't a huge effort and doesn't break the character.
It will make her boring because you'll literally be hitconfirming into bf2 or exbf2 depending on whether they blocked you or not, but it's better than how she plays right now.

Again if I had my way, she'd be ridiculous.
124 would launch for a 18% meterless and 22% meterburn damage.
2 would be an 8f mid with better reach,
212 would be 0 on block,
f21 wouldn't reach so far and would be a viable move
b1 would be -10 with pushback,
b12 would hard kd
3 would be a mid, the same as b3 is now
b3 wouldn't exist
3434 would be the kick string
f3 would either be 8f or have way more reach for the 16f startup
43 would launch for exrang on males too
b4 would be the staff sweep from the customs
f4 would be 9f, +1 on block and reach further like a lot of other f4s
f41 would be -5 and pushback

Her parry would be 7f and holdable
Shadow kick would be safe on meterburn and meterburnable even on whiff like Scorpion's teleport because it's not a launcher and doesn't do a lot of damage
Glow would be 10f, 18f cooldown

I'd also do the same for every other character though.
Make their kit just a bit more useful overall.

The issue and why this is ridiculous is called power creep.
Game balance requires stronger moves to be made weaker before we even think about making anything stronger.

• all those advancing f4s to be worse not those that aren't good better.
• machinegun d1 more punishable on block
• throws to stop being ghetto mids
• scorpion's teleport to be a high, mb to only come out on hit, not on whiff or block
• sand traps to be more negative and all but the close one to be mids
• jacqui cancels to cost meter or to be more negative

on goes the list.

Point is, I understand where you're coming from and I'd love for her moves to stop being bad but the overall health of the game hangs in the balance when we ask for major changes and bf2 being safe and mb bf2 being an unsafe launcher just fixes all her problems elegantly, swiftly, reliably and in a way that doesn't make her too much better.
If on top of that Glow could be not -44 but like -18 she'd be sorted, trust me.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

@Hellbringer

 

[Sanjo]

Jade is fine. She is not top tier sure ( but those 5 or 6 characters need to be toned down anyway ). Just got to learn how to use her tool kit. It takes time. Less complaining, more labbing. Some Jade players make it work after all.

 

[seanpon]

Jade is fine. She is not top tier sure ( but those 5 or 6 characters need to be toned down anyway ). Just got to learn how to use her tool kit. It takes time. Less complaining, more labbing. Some Jade players make it work after all.

I wish it was the case, but the abysmal damage makes her very unfriendly in a ft2 setting. Its the reason why players like Big D and Waz are dropping her or already have dropped her. Kitana prime is just waiting for sindel and for kitana to get fixed. You can't really keep up in this game when your opponent is playing yolo and punishing for 35% bnb's while you get in a touch and only get 18%. The game shouldn't work that way unfortunately for any character, especially in matches where you can't reliably zone an opponent. It doesn't make any sense how Jade can't really get her zoning game up against noob saibot or shang tsung, yet when they touch you thats like 35% while you touch them you will tickle them for some damage.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

Jade is not garbage, but as @seanpon says, her flaws really show vs characters that have a much friendlier risk/reward balance. The Scropion match is abysmal because it highlights two weaknesses. 1) Jade is far weaker against characters with good anti-zoning tools because the rest of her kit can't compensate. 2) Her punish damage is so low it tips the odds in the opponents favor.

If Scorp can routinely hit 33-40% (depending on 1 bar or 2) off a TP, and Jade can only punish for 18%, he only needs to catch her two or three times in a match along with maybe a stray throw and a few pokes to win. Meanwhile Jade can successfully block and punish 5 wild TPs and still have work to create her own hit opportunities against an opponent that is well suited to contesting her buttons.

You can win it (as Jade mains we have to, every other online match is a Scorp) but there is no denying Jade has to work way harder. And that's far from her only match-up like that.

She needs better punish damage. That alone would solve a bunch of her problems.

 

[Afumba]

Listen, if I had my way, all her normals would be standard issue well performing moves.
We need to be realistic in our requests. Who knows, maybe this time around they'll slap characters with overhauls and moves will be normalised across the board to a more narrow margin than before, but if I know one thing about nrs patching so far it's that they aren't busting their ass to make bad moves better.

The BF2 change is the single most relevant thing you can do to this character that isn't a huge effort and doesn't break the character.
It will make her boring because you'll literally be hitconfirming into bf2 or exbf2 depending on whether they blocked you or not, but it's better than how she plays right now.

Again if I had my way, she'd be ridiculous.
124 would launch for a 18% meterless and 22% meterburn damage.
2 would be an 8f mid with better reach,
212 would be 0 on block,
f21 wouldn't reach so far and would be a viable move
b1 would be -10 with pushback,
b12 would hard kd
3 would be a mid, the same as b3 is now
b3 wouldn't exist
3434 would be the kick string
f3 would either be 8f or have way more reach for the 16f startup
43 would launch for exrang on males too
b4 would be the staff sweep from the customs
f4 would be 9f, +1 on block and reach further like a lot of other f4s
f41 would be -5 and pushback

Her parry would be 7f and holdable
Shadow kick would be safe on meterburn and meterburnable even on whiff like Scorpion's teleport because it's not a launcher and doesn't do a lot of damage
Glow would be 10f, 18f cooldown

I'd also do the same for every other character though.
Make their kit just a bit more useful overall.

The issue and why this is ridiculous is called power creep.
Game balance requires stronger moves to be made weaker before we even think about making anything stronger.

• all those advancing f4s to be worse not those that aren't good better.
• machinegun d1 more punishable on block
• throws to stop being ghetto mids
• scorpion's teleport to be a high, mb to only come out on hit, not on whiff or block
• sand traps to be more negative and all but the close one to be mids
• jacqui cancels to cost meter or to be more negative

on goes the list.

Point is, I understand where you're coming from and I'd love for her moves to stop being bad but the overall health of the game hangs in the balance when we ask for major changes and bf2 being safe and mb bf2 being an unsafe launcher just fixes all her problems elegantly, swiftly, reliably and in a way that doesn't make her too much better.
If on top of that Glow could be not -44 but like -18 she'd be sorted, trust me.

I got your point but maybe i havent made mine clear enough.

What i meant to say was not only that i would like other stuff over a launcher in her base kit but also that i rather have nothing over it as well. As you pointed she would be boring, so i'd rather stick with her as is.

So in other words a launching BF2 is a "no" in every scenario for me. Its just something i dont want. She would have a launcher and save special in every variation and a big part would always evolve around that move. Which makes her bad/subpar other moves just worse.

Therefore i dont see a scenario in which a BF2 launcher change is better than other changes i would like. And i am not changing or basing my opinion on things NRS might do or might be willing to do etcetc. Doesnt matter what their history says either. I ask for/agree to what makes the most sense (logically or as good as i am able to do) when asking for changes/tweaks.

What i am unwilling to do is to just suggest and accept some suggestions in advance just because its the most likely thing NRS might do. Not saying what you are argueing is wrong either. If NRS takes the easy route i'll live with it but why should i settle with the easy way in advance just because NRS might be unwilling/too lazy to go a different direction?

Its also not a matter of trusting you or not. Launching BF2 and -18 Glow would undoubtedly make her a lot stronger. Doesnt change the fact (in my oppiniom) that these are the wrong changes.

And -18 Glow would be too strong.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Anyone complaining about Jade’s damage is just theory-crafting and not optimizing during actual matches.

I get 31% 1-bar anywhere on screen with f21. That’s only around 4% less than fucking Baraka... You’re also going to land your 124, d2, and forward throw KBs every match, each for over 25%.

For punishes, b343~bf1 only does 14% (18% amplified) but guarantees another b343 or a throw attempt. The opponent literally has to eat the mixup. If you do b343~bf1, throw, that’s a 28% meterless unbreakable 11-frame punish. And with proper conditioning, they’re going to eat the throw.

And that’s just talking kombos and punishes. Jade’s downward air Razor-Rang is one of the best projectiles in the game. Some characters have almost no way of contesting it. It allows you to condition your opponent not to anti-air, allowing free jk mixups or even empty jumps into pressure or throws. Jk~air-rang (amp)-d2 does around 28%, so your opponent should be afraid to press buttons anytime you jump.

Defensively, jump-back-2~air-rang is one of the best defensive options in the game. It allows her to create space almost for free, unless she’s cornered.

Standing 2~up-rang(amp)-d2 does around 23%, I believe, making it quite a good 7-frame 1-bar anti-air. The hitbox on standing 2 is excellent for anti-airing, and you can even do that punish without meter, it’s just a little tighter.

The only buff I’d like to see right now would be for amplified Razor-Rang to jail into itself. Since you can neutral-duck the 2nd hit after blocking the first, there’s literally no way to utilize those plus frames on block. The only way someone is ever blocking that 2nd hit is if they’re asleep or have zero matchup knowledge. Of course, I’d also like to see hitbox corrections to avoid weird whiffing issues.

 

[Sanjo]

Anyone complaining about Jade’s damage is just theory-crafting and not optimizing during actual matches.

I get 31% 1-bar anywhere on screen with f21. That’s only around 4% less than fucking Baraka... You’re also going to land your 124, d2, and forward throw KBs every match, each for over 25%.

For punishes, b343~bf1 only does 14% (18% amplified) but guarantees another b343 or a throw attempt. The opponent literally has to eat the mixup. If you do b343~bf1, throw, that’s a 28% meterless 11-frame punish. And with proper conditioning, they’re going to eat the throw.

And that’s just talking kombos and punishes. Jade’s downward air Razor-Rang is one of the best projectiles in the game. Some characters have almost no way of contesting it. It allows you to condition your opponent not to anti-air, allowing free jk mixups or even empty jumps into pressure or throws. Jk~air-rang (amp)-d2 does around 28%, so your opponent should be afraid to press buttons anytime you jump.

Defensively, jump-back-2~rang is one of the best defensive options in the game. It allows her to create space almost for free, unless she’s cornered.

Standing 2~up-rang(amp)-d2 does around 23%, I believe, making it quite a good 7-frame 1-bar anti-air. The hitbox on standing 2 is excellent for anti-airing, and you can even do that punish without meter, it’s just a little tighter.

The only buff I’d like to see right now would be for amplified Razor-Rang to jail into itself. Since you can neutral-duck the 2nd hit after blocking the first, there’s literally no way to utilize those plus frames on block. The only way someone is ever blocking that 2nd hit is if they’re asleep or have zero matchup knowledge. Of course, I’d also like to see hitbox corrections to avoid weird whiffing issues.

Amen to that!

 

[cavemold]

The major issues her punish damage isnt as good as others, she has one set moves , pole vault is garabage . Shes good but there other charcters that have much higher damage output. Shes middle of the road character .

 

[Saboteur-6]

I'm given up on Jaded man. I've been avoiding Emerald Defender because it's what all the Jade players use but Pole Vault and the cancel just don't seem worth it.

 

[cavemold]

I'm given up on Jaded man. I've been avoiding Emerald Defender because it's what all the Jade players use but Pole Vault and the cancel just don't seem worth it.

pole vault is just plan bad.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

The major issues her punish damage isnt as good as others, she has one set moves , pole vault is garabage . Shes good but there other charcters that have much higher damage output. Shes middle of the road character .

Her punish damage isn’t bad, it’s just unconventional. Yes, technically the punish directly does 18%, but that’s an 11-frame unbreakable 18% that guarantees a followup mix. If they don’t block the followup b343, you can confirm into regular glaive and now they’ve eaten 36% for 1 bar, and you get another mix into b343 or throw.

That shit adds up fast. Just ask the D’Vorah players that rely on a non-confirmable -15-on-block loop that only does 9% per rotation. They literally win matches with it. Ours does more damage (twice as much if amped!), is confirmable, and is staggerable at multiple points. And we get to go into that nonsense every time we block a non-plus attack since it’s all based on an 11-frame mid. I got my fastest win ever with Jade due to my opponent guessing wrong on my staggers. I believe I took them from 100-0 in about 8 seconds thanks to a 31% kombo into several mixes.

No, we’re not Kung Lao getting 37% conversions off every touch, but that’s not how our character is designed. Our strength isn’t raw damage. It’s mixups, space control, and incredibly strong zoning and counter-zoning. Those tools all add up to significant damage output over the course of a match.

 

[TierHero]

Anyone complaining about Jade’s damage is just theory-crafting and not optimizing during actual matches.

I get 31% 1-bar anywhere on screen with f21. That’s only around 4% less than fucking Baraka... You’re also going to land your 124, d2, and forward throw KBs every match, each for over 25%.

Complaints about Jade's damage aren't "theory-crafting". She objectively has the lowest damage output on punishes compared to the rest of the cast by a decent margin. You can argue that you personally are fine with her damage as is, but saying that those who point out her damage as a conspicuous weakness of the character are "theory-crafting" doesn't seem right. Also, a reactable 28 frame launcher that's very punishable on block and can be flawless blocked to remove any special cancel or followup is NOT a reliable source of damage. She does have krushing blows to make up for damage, but many posters are discussing her PUNISH damage, which is undisputably extremely low.

No, we’re not Kung Lao getting 37% conversions off every touch, but that’s not how our character is designed. Our strength isn’t raw damage. It’s mixups, space control, and incredibly strong zoning and counter-zoning. Those tools all add up to significant damage output over the course of a match.

I don't recall anyone in this whole thread asking for Jade to do Kung Lao level damage. Significant damage output is a relative statement. How many characters does Jade actually outdamage over the course of a match on average? If you only need one hand to count then it's not "significant damage output" by any means.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

Complaints about Jade's damage aren't "theory-crafting". She objectively has the lowest damage output on punishes compared to the rest of the cast by a decent margin. You can argue that you personally are fine with her damage as is, but saying that those who point out her damage as a conspicuous weakness of the character are "theory-crafting" doesn't seem right. Also, a reactable 28 frame launcher that's very punishable on block and can be flawless blocked to remove any special cancel or followup is NOT a reliable source of damage. She does have krushing blows to make up for damage, but many posters are discussing her PUNISH damage, which is undisputably extremely low.

I don't recall anyone in this whole thread asking for Jade to do Kung Lao level damage. Significant damage output is a relative statement. How many characters does Jade actually outdamage over the course of a match on average? If you only need one hand to count then it's not "significant damage output" by any means.

31% midscreen is significant, and I’m able
to land it consistently. And because it’s a 28-frame startup, it’s not too difficult to confirm into the 2nd hit on hit or anything else on block. It’s excellent as a whiff punisher against a lot of dialed-in strings, whiffed specials, and as an anti-wakeup.

When I say “theory crafting” I mean literally just taking her moves as they appear on paper; looking directly at the frames and damage without any consideration for what she can do in an actual match against a human opponent. You see a shitty 18% 1-bar punish, where I see an easy-to-confirm unbreakable 18% into an unavoidable stagger, 50/50, throw mixup. The damage isn’t coming from a single chain of kombo’d moves like with every other character, but you’re still going to land the extra damage more than someone like Baraka whose kombos are constantly and immediately broken out of. It’s also very easy to purposefully land her 124 KB as a punish.

I’d say she out-damages Kitana, D’Vorah, Shao Kahn, Sub-Zero, Kabal, Frost, Cassie, Johnny, ...and that’s all I can think of off the top of my head. That’s considering her punishes into mix and her zoning game, as well as the ease of opening up the opponent. You can totally disagree because “outdamage over the course of a match” is such an abstract idea with no clear metrics to define who does more. The only characters I can think of who definitely put out more damage consistently are Geras, Sonya, Shang, and Lao.

 

[TakeAChance]

@karaokelove

Everything you are saying is correct. EXCEPT B343~razerrang (non ex) does not jail into a b3 unless it's in the corner. You need to spend that bar.

Be careful if you are getting away with that.

1 Bar 18percent punishes into chip is a low punish. That's just a fact.

Know what would make me happy? Make 124 special cancellable into shadow kick. That way I can take just a bit more damage and setup her krushing blow everytime I hit it and get a little mind game going.