Everything wrong with Jade

[Matador Fiend]

Big D made her look decent. Maybe the issue is that the top tiers (Geras and Sonya particularly) are just too good? Idk. I get the struggle though Kotal is my favorite character and i cant play him if i want to win against good players. Same with kollector, so i have to use raka or kabal

 

[GLoRToR]

Big D made her look decent. Maybe the issue is that the top tiers (Geras and Sonya particularly) are just too good? Idk. I get the struggle though Kotal is my favorite character and i cant play him if i want to win against good players. Same with kollector, so i have to use raka or kabal

While nowhere even near as bad as Kotal, Jade has this issue where if you pick her you need to work three times as hard.
B3 staggers only take you so far, because the risk for the opponent on that string is very minimal.
212, if spied, can be D2 blown up on the startup so you have to space it and it leaves you at negative which means characters with fast advancing mids like Liu or Cassie can stuff all your followups.
124 puts you in their face at negative so basically if you finish it, get ready to guess a throw. You can do 12xGlaive and ExGlaive but see below.
All her other strings are unsafe / bad.
f2 / f21 is hugely unsafe and starts up at 28f so it's literally just reactable. Meaning they see it coming no matter what you do. You can make someone drop the ball a couple times but the higher level the player the less likely they'll fall for it especially if they know the matchup.
B1 / B12 is heavily unsafe despite being a very good spacing tool otherwise but again, see below why the overhead is not really worth mixing up into Low Spark

Her specials are just bad. Objectively bad.
Shadowkick is punishable even on meterburn so all they have to do is block a bit longer and then blow you up whether you spent meter or not.
Butterfly is -13 which is okay because it does decent chip and it's good for closing out the round on a b3 stagger but it really needs to be safe.
Air Glaive is excellent but if you drop the ball with it, it's suicide against teleporters and those with fast advancing moves. You can use it in moderation against them as an instant air mid but on a read you can get blown up for far more than what it gets you. This does not make Air Glaive bad: it's her best tool hands down. Meterburned it gives you block advantage and you can do JiK/JiP into Exlglaive which is a small juggle on hit and pressure on block.
Glaive is fine as a projectile but exglaive is not a viable cancel because of the gigantic gap that can be blown up on reaction. They just see it and bang. Can't catch them offguard with it as we've seen at ComboBreaker.
Low Spark is so negative on block that mixing it as a low is literally only viable if you condition them to block high but since both her overheads are reactable, currently any string into Low Spark is a gimmick you can only sell on people who don't know Jade too well.

Jade is a good character, she just needs a little love.
I think I know what it is by now, to be honest.

• A consistent, reliable punish that reaches and isn't blown up by pushback / wonky shit on block, for whatever NRS thinks would be balanced damage for her. I'm leaning towards 30% meterless since we have 50% combos with 1 bar from the top tiers but if they decide to curb that damage for those characters, a 25 for Jade would be fine.
• Butterfly to be safe on block. Making it meterburnable to either be + on block OR launch and be unsafe would literally put Jade to high/top tier.

That's pretty much it.

 

[Miasmata123]

While nowhere even near as bad as Kotal, Jade has this issue where if you pick her you need to work three times as hard.
B3 staggers only take you so far, because the risk for the opponent on that string is very minimal.
212, if spied, can be D2 blown up on the startup so you have to space it and it leaves you at negative which means characters with fast advancing mids like Liu or Cassie can stuff all your followups.
124 puts you in their face at negative so basically if you finish it, get ready to guess a throw. You can do 12xGlaive and ExGlaive but see below.
All her other strings are unsafe / bad.
f2 / f21 is hugely unsafe and starts up at 28f so it's literally just reactable. Meaning they see it coming no matter what you do. You can make someone drop the ball a couple times but the higher level the player the less likely they'll fall for it especially if they know the matchup.
B1 / B12 is heavily unsafe despite being a very good spacing tool otherwise but again, see below why the overhead is not really worth mixing up into Low Spark

Her specials are just bad. Objectively bad.
Shadowkick is punishable even on meterburn so all they have to do is block a bit longer and then blow you up whether you spent meter or not.
Butterfly is -13 which is okay because it does decent chip and it's good for closing out the round on a b3 stagger but it really needs to be safe.
Air Glaive is excellent but if you drop the ball with it, it's suicide against teleporters and those with fast advancing moves. You can use it in moderation against them as an instant air mid but on a read you can get blown up for far more than what it gets you. This does not make Air Glaive bad: it's her best tool hands down. Meterburned it gives you block advantage and you can do JiK/JiP into Exlglaive which is a small juggle on hit and pressure on block.
Glaive is fine as a projectile but exglaive is not a viable cancel because of the gigantic gap that can be blown up on reaction. They just see it and bang. Can't catch them offguard with it as we've seen at ComboBreaker.
Low Spark is so negative on block that mixing it as a low is literally only viable if you condition them to block high but since both her overheads are reactable, currently any string into Low Spark is a gimmick you can only sell on people who don't know Jade too well.

Jade is a good character, she just needs a little love.
I think I know what it is by now, to be honest.

• A consistent, reliable punish that reaches and isn't blown up by pushback / wonky shit on block, for whatever NRS thinks would be balanced damage for her. I'm leaning towards 30% meterless since we have 50% combos with 1 bar from the top tiers but if they decide to curb that damage for those characters, a 25 for Jade would be fine.
• Butterfly to be safe on block. Making it meterburnable to either be + on block OR launch and be unsafe would literally put Jade to high/top tier.

That's pretty much it.

Yes 212 can be blown up. Every high starter can be. Didnt stop F0xy vs Scar from landing a number of 111s as Cassie vs Scorpion, even if he did get punished for his excessive use of it.

F21 is basically unpunishable by 90% of the cast. It is safe.

Dragon literally got hit by an Ex glaive cancel out of b343 against Waz. Watch the games a little closer before you make remarks like "as we've seen at Combo Breaker".

Butterfly safe would make her pokes stupid strong with the potential special cancel mix up. It's just not even necessary at all. Jade is extremely safe overall.

Almost every Shadow Kick type special is punishable. Shadow Kick is unique in that it can be meter burned to punish a hasty punish, and to switch sides.

Why do you insist on Jade getting special treatment? Look around for how other characters are balanced before you start making demands like "make Butterfly safe" or "give Jade a 300 damage punish".

 

[Braindead]

It's nice how a character that's supposed to be so bad showed up 3 times in top 24. I wish my own character was this bad.

 

[GLoRToR]

Gasp, how dare you filthy Jade players address problems when your character was played in a tournament!!

 

[Miasmata123]

Gasp, how dare you filthy Jade players address problems when your character was played in a tournament!!

The problem is most of the things you point out aren't even problems, and many of the actual "problems" you point out are pretty obviously balancing points.

It doesnt help that you flood the forums with things you think Jade "needs", without really any context for why she does or does not need them. You simply just want her to be "better", not realizing that almost all of your demands are outrageous, or why they are.

You're still harping about Jade only having one string that's positive and that it has a flawless block gap. I've given you context on this a million times and at this point if you were serious about analyzing things from a cobstructive point of view rather than whining and making demands everywhere and anywhere you'd have come to the same conclusion. At this point you're willfully ignoring the data for God knows what reason.

It's pretty obvious you are in no position to be speaking about balance, and thank God for that. The day that Jade d4s into Deadly Butterfly whenever she feels like it is the day everyone starts demanding nerfs.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I'm leaning towards 30% meterless since we have 50% combos with 1 bar from the top tiers but if they decide to curb that damage for those characters, a 25 for Jade would be fine.

Please tell me which characters get 30% without resources. I can count them on one hand.

Which characters get 50% for a bar? Or are we counting fatal blow combos? Or combos that require multiple Krushing Blows?

Butterfly to be safe on block. Making it meterburnable to either be + on block OR launch and be unsafe would literally put Jade to high/top tier.

You want a character with the range she has on d4 and b2 to also have a safe, high chip, corner launching special?

What you want make everyone think you fundamentally don’t understand how Jade plays, or just have no idea how balance functions. Probably both to be honest.

 

[Vhozite]

Safe on block butterfly seems 100% unnecessary. It already does good damage and corner carry along with (a hard to convert) corner launch.

It also would that not make it just strictly better than Pole Vault?

 

[Miasmata123]

Please tell me which characters get 30% without resources. I can count them on one hand.

Which characters get 50% for a bar? Or are we counting fatal blow combos? Or combos that require multiple Krushing Blows?


You want a character with the range she has on d4 and b2 to also have a safe, high chip, corner launching special?

What you want make everyone think you fundamentally don’t understand how Jade plays, or just have no idea how balance functions. Probably both to be honest.

My God I didnt even see that he was asking for a 30% meterless punish.

How? what? Does he even play this game?

Normally I'd just ignore people like him but he literally floods the forums with garbage like this and people who come here to learn about the game or research a character are inundated with it.

 

[Afumba]

I just wish for her to get

• 3-5% more meterless punish, punishing people feels so sad atm
• her wakeups/flawless block adjusted, especially the launcher
• Butterfly corner combos reverted to how they were in the beta
• a little more range on f3

Oh and a new approach to the whole pole vault variation.

Edit: also some new KB reqs for shadowkick and 124

 

[Elias6999]

Yes 212 can be blown up. Every high starter can be. Didnt stop F0xy vs Scar from landing a number of 111s as Cassie vs Scorpion, even if he did get punished for his excessive use of it.

F21 is basically unpunishable by 90% of the cast. It is safe.

Dragon literally got hit by an Ex glaive cancel out of b343 against Waz. Watch the games a little closer before you make remarks like "as we've seen at Combo Breaker".

Butterfly safe would make her pokes stupid strong with the potential special cancel mix up. It's just not even necessary at all. Jade is extremely safe overall.

Almost every Shadow Kick type special is punishable. Shadow Kick is unique in that it can be meter burned to punish a hasty punish, and to switch sides.

Why do you insist on Jade getting special treatment? Look around for how other characters are balanced before you start making demands like "make Butterfly safe" or "give Jade a 300 damage punish".

I disagree about her being safe, although I do agree with your post in general. F21 is not safe, easily interrupted too. And as a character she isn’t safe at all. But she's fine, even though her best punish is grab lol

 

[GLoRToR]

I disagree about her being safe, although I do agree with your post in general. F21 is not safe, easily interrupted too. And as a character she isn’t safe at all. But she's fine, even though her best punish is grab lol

I think d2 is better actually.

 

[GLoRToR]

With the patch drawing closer, I think it's time to talk about her problems again.

"But Glor, her problems aren't even problems" Yeah, see how that argument worked out. Glow taking 56 frames is an insult. F2 is laughable. Her damage makes her literally incapable of effectively playing the game as it is now. She has nothing.
"But Glor, she was represented in tournament" Waz dropped her. At this point I think KP is the only high level tournament player who's still sticking to her but I can see him dropping her as soon as Kitana gets her due.
"But Glor, err... she beats Cassie, one of the strongest cha--" Ask @Vslayer about that one.

It's time to admit Glor was right again and let's see if we can get some justice done for our greenja girl.

Let's try to be honest about it, too. Without demanding ridiculous buffs.
I don't want to see nonsense from people who never labbed her and people who claim to know better but quite obviously have no idea, but I guess that's wishful thinking on this website. Haters will hate.

Let's go.
@Espio @THTB @whoeverelse still plays her

 

[seanpon]

With the patch drawing closer, I think it's time to talk about her problems again.

"But Glor, her problems aren't even problems" Yeah, see how that argument worked out. Glow taking 56 frames is an insult. F2 is laughable. Her damage makes her literally incapable of effectively playing the game as it is now. She has nothing.
"But Glor, she was represented in tournament" Waz dropped her. At this point I think KP is the only high level tournament player who's still sticking to her but I can see him dropping her as soon as Kitana gets her due.
"But Glor, err... she beats Cassie, one of the strongest cha--" Ask @Vslayer about that one.

It's time to admit Glor was right again and let's see if we can get some justice done for our greenja girl.

Let's try to be honest about it, too. Without demanding ridiculous buffs.
I don't want to see nonsense from people who never labbed her and people who claim to know better but quite obviously have no idea, but I guess that's wishful thinking on this website. Haters will hate.

Let's go.
@Espio @THTB @whoeverelse still plays her

yeah i definitely hope she gets the damage buff she deserves. 18% Bnb's aren't just going to cut it against the top tier, its hard to justify playing a character with such low damage output at the highest level. Its just frustrating knowing that better zoners like Centrion or Shang even get optimal damage from their BnB's.

 

[THTB]

My thoughts:

-b1 should be in the ballpark of -7
-b12 should be -15 with high pushback
-f2 should be about -10 and be 23f startup
-Fix 43 glaive on males

Those are my suggestions as necessary changes.

 

[Elias6999]

I think that maybe EX air glaive should be nerfed. Butterfly could be like -7 maybe, her U2 and U3 should be fixed, and her run could be better too. @GLoRToR what do you think should be changed? Do you still think the changes you suggested in the OP should be made? I honestly think they’re a bit too much.

 

[TakeAChance]

Just better punish options/an U2 that actually works so she can at least flawless block launch.

 

[Madog32]

Pls fix her staff normals whiffing on airborne opponents. F21, B12 both very often swing right through opponents who are jumping in. Particularly infuriating when moves like sonyas and skarlets overheads pull you right down out of the sky on a jump.

Also - pole vault should be a true mid. This move whiffs on opponents who are mashing D1 after a blocked string into vault.

I don't touch ED so I can't speak for any changes to those specific specials.

And B1 should not be -15. The range is similar to kabals F2 yet 7x more negative. It should be the end of her turn, but not the end of her life

Fix flawless block U2 so its usable.

Parry could use a little help. A bit too slow, and quite often see the finger wiggle and hear the giggle, but its not active yet

A legit punish to give scorpion a reason to stop teleporting without much concern would be icing on the cake. But Jades game isn't really about damage. I can live with B343~Amp Vault if I have to.

A variation with Delias Dance, Deadly Assassin, and Pole Vault PLS!

All of that said, this character is super fun to play!

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

hitbox issues:
-F2 should hit MFers jumping in the air. That hit box is so unbelievably stupid for jumpers. You shouldn't be able to avoid F2 by jumping THROUGH AND OVER IT. This kind of nonsense short circuits my brain every time
-Unless I am missing something fundamentally wrong about this game, the exglaive (which I get is high) should be a jailed high when lead into by B343. Again, call me out of I'm mis-understanding the game, but if stupid characters like Jacqui can morph their punishable high (superman punch) to un-duckable via a mid, Jade's only stagger string should do so as well. Especially considering her Jaded variation is intended to be at least semi-rushdown.

Buffs:
-Glow and Parry need to be faster. Parry needs to WORK. Have heard the voice, and seen the animation and still gotten blown up. Makes no sense.
-U2 for FB or wakeup needs to be fixed. She has a freakin staff and she's launching people by standing doing a nearly vertical handstand???......

 

[GLoRToR]

I think that maybe EX air glaive should be nerfed. Butterfly could be like -7 maybe, her U2 and U3 should be fixed, and her run could be better too. @GLoRToR what do you think should be changed? Do you still think the changes you suggested in the OP should be made? I honestly think they’re a bit too much.

You need to understand that the OP is not about all needed changes, it's about everything that sucks in comparison to the rest of the game. Some of those things will keep sucking.

As for what I'd change?

+bf2 safe on block (-4)
+bf2 MB added. Launches, -13 on block
+Glow -18 instead of -44
+Shadowkick MB safe on block.
V1: - Air glaive adjusted to be less dominant of a tool
V2: Pole cancels 0 or +1, Vault hitbox issues fixed.

Additional luxury suggestions (not all of them, maybe one or two on top of the above) :

• Parry 7f startup and can be held
• Shadowkick can be meterburned on whiff
• V2: Shadowkick change replaced by a FUNCTIONAL teleport (current one only teleports on meterburn it's literally an insult) OR by Delia.
• F2 remade into a string with less range and viable startup
• B1 to be -7 on block, B12 to have pushback, B14 added as a string which is +1 on block and advances a bit like 4 in 124
• 124 to launch for b343 to juggle
• 2 a mid instead of a high, 8f instead of 7f, bit more reach than her 1, bit less than b3.

 

[Espio]

@GLoRToR I'll give my tea time with Jade thoughts this afternoon. I have some points to make for quality.

 

[Elias6999]

You need to understand that the OP is not about all needed changes, it's about everything that sucks in comparison to the rest of the game. Some of those things will keep sucking.

As for what I'd change?

+bf2 safe on block (-4)
+bf2 MB added. Launches, -13 on block
+Glow -18 instead of -44
+Shadowkick MB safe on block.
V1: - Air glaive adjusted to be less dominant of a tool
V2: Pole cancels 0 or +1, Vault hitbox issues fixed.

Additional luxury suggestions (not all of them, maybe one or two on top of the above) :

• Parry 7f startup and can be held
• Shadowkick can be meterburned on whiff
• V2: Shadowkick change replaced by a FUNCTIONAL teleport (current one only teleports on meterburn it's literally an insult) OR by Delia.
• F2 remade into a string with less range and viable startup
• B1 to be -7 on block, B12 to have pushback, B14 added as a string which is +1 on block and advances a bit like 4 in 124
• 124 to launch for b343 to juggle
• 2 a mid instead of a high, 8f instead of 7f, bit more reach than her 1, bit less than b3.

Don’t you think giving her that many launchers is gonna make her a bit too oppressive considering how easy it is to whiff punish with her? I agree with most of your changes except the addition of new launchers and Shadow Kick MB being safe, safe butterfly should be enough IMO. Also, contrary to most, I think Glow is okay. It should be used as a reaction tool, and it lasts way too long for it not to have counters. It could start up faster, but crossing that line might be dangerous, considering Jade’s zoning is very strong with glow.

You forgot to say increase the range of F3 too lol

EDIT: Also, I’ve been having a lot of success predicting wakeups and whiff punishing with F21, I’ve also been using it as an anti poke move, it obviously isn’t meant to be a mixup tool.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I don't really think she needs much changing from the little bit that I've played her.

But damn if F2 doesn't need it's hitbox adjusted. People shouldn't be able to jump through the damn staff on it's way down lmao

 

[dennycascade]

Wtf man, this character is universally considered high mid tier and was played in top 16 at both major tourneys by two different players even. Children in Africa are starving, and I’m referring to Kotal Kahn.

 

[THTB]

Wtf man, this character is universally considered high mid tier and was played in top 16 at both major tourneys by two different players even. Children in Africa are starving, and I’m referring to Kotal Kahn.

This is actually why I wasn't very keen on big changes in my own list. I think she personally falls into the higher end of mid tier range. She's got very exploitable stuff, but the fact that despite this, people still place her up there means something important is there in her game. And I don't disagree.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

Gasp, how dare you filthy Jade players address problems when your character was played in a tournament!!

It's even worse in the Kotal boards. "See, ONE Kotal showed up in top 64, HE'S FIIIIIIIIIINE"