Everything wrong with Jade

[Pan1cMode]

Why is Jade bottom 10 in every single tier list if she only loses to three characters? lul

Because people are reactionary, haven’t fleshed the character out and don’t know matchups. Rather than play a boring character that has to sit back and play footsies and slowly chip away at your health. She’s boring to play; but she’s strong.

Characters potentially better than Jade:

• Sonya
• Geras
• Cassie
• Jacqui
• Scorpion
• Erron
• Sub
• Baraka

That’s still well within top 10.

 

[TakeAChance]

Because people are reactionary, haven’t fleshed the character out and don’t know matchups. Rather than play a boring character that has to sit back and play footsies and slowly chip away at your health. She’s boring to play; but she’s strong.

Characters potentially better than Jade:

• Sonya
• Geras
• Cassie
• Jacqui
• Scorpion
• Erron
• Sub
• Baraka

That’s still well within top 10.

Kang, kabal, and potentially skarlet should be added as well.

 

[THTB]

I don't think Jade is bad, but I wouldn't recommend taking her into tournament in a FT2.

There's a lot of good points, just wanna throw my thoughts in.

Her damage is low, but outside of grounded midscreen on-block punishes, she's getting something. Her long-range normals are unsafe, but they are long range. Like...POWER POLE EXTEND status long LMAO. d4's a great poke, air glaive is air glaive, yadda yadda.

I can't pinpoint many hard matchups besides Scorpion, but winning matchups are also fairly scarce. I think she does well vs the other top tiers, though...not necessarily winning, but she doesn't get steamrolled.

I think she needs a couple things, but a total overhaul isn't necessary. I've said recently I think she's low-mid, but I'm also wishy-washy with her placement lol. I think I can get a better eye at Combo Breaker.

 

[GLoRToR]

I get that you’re heated; but the character is fine.

Based on what evidence?

Glow isn’t done in neutral, you do it on reaction to a projectile. It is literally the most broke special in the game that can completely invalidate certain characters.

Only if played by people who have no idea how to play a fighting game. Glow is fully punishable at all ranges by majority of the cast either via projectiles that ignore it, teleports, or advancing moves such as Sub Zero's slide.

f2 is super slow, but it hits half screen and is overhead. You have to watch out for b2, d4, shadow kick and db3 which has you neutral ducking a whole bunch and opens you up to this.

i28, mate. You SEE it coming. It's REACTABLE. If you get hit with Jade's F2 you're either on a shitty connection online, or don't have the reflexes required to play a fighting game

bf2 shouldn’t be done on block unless it’s a chip out situation. It launches in the corner; it’s fine that it’s not safe.

I'm sure it's fine to you that it's not safe but I'm talking about numbers here and you're coming in with your nose high trying to invalidate numbers via hearsay.
I appreciate your personal opinion as much as any other random person's on this forum and you're entitled to it, but your categorical assertions such as "she is not getting adjustments." or the above where you go on about how people blocking low against d4 open them up to an i28 overhead, show that you really don't understand what's going on.

Jump back air glaive is insanely strong against most of the cast. She has to play super lame and go for the time outs; but she is incredibly solid.

Looking at matchups:
Erron 6-4
Scorpion 6-4
Frost 6-4

Literally everyone else is 5-5 or better.

I don’t see how a character with potentially only 3 bad matchups requires buffs.

Based on what data, again? I can give you random numbers to matchups too but that doesn't change the fact that this character, like many others which aren't in the top tier, have issues.

Because people are reactionary, haven’t fleshed the character out and don’t know matchups.

So you know matchups but all those top players who said she's lower mid to bottom tier know a lot less than you do.
Who are you again, sorry

Several people in here are trying to discuss these problems on a reasonable tone, please don't come waltzing in here and trying to invalidate people's work by simply stating "no, that is not so".
It makes you look, again, like you have no idea what you're on about.

If you want to help the discussion, lab her, discover things we might have overlooked, provide numerical evidence, or kindly move along because if you can't do that, there is nothing for you to see here.

 

[GLoRToR]

I think I can get a better eye at Combo Breaker.

Oh yes, the cat will be out of the bag at CB or latest during EVO.
Still, I foresee that someone might take Jade to top 16 because people sleep on her and she's not defenseless. Someone that isn't prepared for her can still get caught offguard by things like 212 uppercut / 212 d4 into f21 if they don't know to block low and react high within that range. I sell that shit online and laugh at people when in Jade mirrors they try the same and I flawless block their ass through half Jade's shit.

 

[GLoRToR]

Kang, kabal, and potentially skarlet should be added as well.

Lao and Cetrion, as well.

 

[SamZ]

For the most part, every community thinks their character is bad in mk11. Jade is fine. She has weaknesses, she controls a decent amount of mu as well.

 

[GLoRToR]

For the most part, every community thinks their character is bad in mk11. Jade is fine. She has weaknesses, she controls a decent amount of mu as well.

And this is the thread where we discuss what's wrong with her.
We don't need people who don't play her to come in here and try to lecture us about something they never labbed and have no idea of.

This may sound harsh but MK9 Jade got destroyed because of this mentality.
Never again.

 

[haketh]

Cetrion does not give Jade trouble what the hell

And versus Skarlet feels mad even from what I've played against TTH

 

[Arqwart]

Cetrion does not give Jade trouble what the hell

And versus Skarlet feels mad even from what I've played against TTH

Have you fought against a good Cetrion as Jade? She isn't just gunna toss boulders at you randomly because she knows that's a non-option with Glow. A good Cetrion is suddenly going to be a stagger / neutral queen against you by abusing the teleport, vine grasp, and geyser so Jade has minimal options. Everything becomes a guessing game for Jade, most of which results in negative situations.

 

[GLoRToR]

Have you fought against a good Cetrion as Jade? She isn't just gunna toss boulders at you randomly because she knows that's a non-option with Glow. A good Cetrion is suddenly going to be a stagger / neutral queen against you by abusing the teleport, vine grasp, and geyser so Jade has minimal options. Everything becomes a guessing game for Jade, most of which results in negative situations.

Yep. People act like Glow is such a big deal but you aren't going to just negate all zoning with it, because most characters have teleports, advancing moves or zoning that simply ignores Glow.

It's literally not half as good as people who didn't lab punishing it think.

As soon as people realise it's 12f and then 44, Glow is soon going to stop being a reliable option.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Yep. People act like Glow is such a big deal but you aren't going to just negate all zoning with it, because most characters have teleports, advancing moves or zoning that simply ignores Glow.

It's literally not half as good as people who didn't lab punishing it think.

As soon as people realise it's 12f and then 44, Glow is soon going to stop being a reliable option.

I think it's all part of the mind games aspect. I started doing glow after blocking a projectile in this set...the LK started air flying kick instantly after a projectile...so then I changed it up to B2 off of blocked projectile to bait the kick, etc
Eventually people have changed their tactics so much you can get a glow off bc they're overthinking it, and on it goes. It sucks balls if you try to dial it in but that's true for lots of special moves

 

[GLoRToR]

I think it's all part of the mind games aspect. I started doing glow after blocking a projectile in this set...the LK started air flying kick instantly after a projectile...so then I changed it up to B2 off of blocked projectile to bait the kick, etc
Eventually people have changed their tactics so much you can get a glow off bc they're overthinking it, and on it goes. It sucks balls if you try to dial it in but that's true for lots of special moves

Yeah you can work around how bad it is, it's not unusable and it's immunity to a select few ranged attacks so it's fine, but it's by far not as good as some people sell it.

 

[kcd117]

I play Jade and I know I ger away with muder guys, cmon.

I also play Kano, Kang, Shao, Baraka and Lao and I can punish Jade’s glow on reaction 90% of the time if done in neutral.

I already said that I don’t think she is bad, I just feel like she was the victim of a movement overhaul. Before dashes were bullshit, free, cancelable movement playing neutral against Jade was really hard. Working your way in just to get caught in her huge normals and sent fullscreen again while the clock was running out was hella frustrating.

Now characters can be in your face in the blink of an eye and she just can’t play the patience game forever with her low dmg output. Once she loses the lifelead she is done. No comeback factor, no good rushdown etc...

I still don’t think she is bad, she is pretty decent, and I think she goes even with a lot of characters, her only 100% losing matchups I know of are Scorpion and Frost. I think that at the highest level, in a long set, Jade would come out on top most of the times against most of the characters, after you adjust to player tendencies and stuff she can be a wall. But in a FT2 or even FT3 scenario she just doesn’t have a way to collect enough info in time for you to adjust and force people to play your game.

I think Jacqui, Liu Kang, Sonya, Sub, Baraka (bone picker), Erron, Geras...the setplay characters will be kings in FT2, while good characters that require conditioning to work like Jade will never really see a lot of results.

Just think about it, if you are going to a FT2 tournament and you see there is an unknown D’vorah in your pool and an unknown Jade... who would you worry about the most?

 

[haketh]

Have you fought against a good Cetrion as Jade? She isn't just gunna toss boulders at you randomly because she knows that's a non-option with Glow. A good Cetrion is suddenly going to be a stagger / neutral queen against you by abusing the teleport, vine grasp, and geyser so Jade has minimal options. Everything becomes a guessing game for Jade, most of which results in negative situations.

I've played it from both ends because the two compliment each other very well, it's hella even

 

[Espio]

This conversation won't be productive, yet I still feel I need to comment. In MK9, I remember taking Jade to tournaments and fighting a lot of different players, some really high level people and having people that don't play the character rampantly insist she is fine that won't travel or put the time in for her. She's always "under explored" even though Jade generally tends to have one of the most active forums on the site for every game she is playable and some of that is complaining, but it's also discussion about strategy and nuances of her play.

Nobody should be complaining about Jade's range because if you block any of her staff strings, her turn is over or the stuff has gaps or even punishable. Back 2 is a high and -13. I fight Jades with Johnny or others and I don't get why people can't just block and then take your turn. It's not like she's -5 with push back and there's no counter play involved. If you lose to Jade, you got outplayed. She's balanced in the sense of most of her pros have legit cons.

I don't think she's bad, but people coming in here and acting like she's so crazy good is weird. I'm sure this will be labelled downplaying, but my core problem is I don't like people trying to shut down discussion with vague details, bring specifics and refute his points.

When I thought Blue Beetle was good in Injustice 2 in the early months of the game's life and people told me I was wrong, I had precise arguments on deck and I traveled and used him at tournaments, I could articulate why people's arguments were faulty. That's all I can hope for is that we seek to educate each other instead of just talking at each other cause that does NOTHING for growth or progress.

 

[Pan1cMode]

This conversation won't be productive, yet I still feel I need to comment. In MK9, I remember taking Jade to tournaments and fighting a lot of different players, some really high level people and having people that don't play the character rampantly insist she is fine that won't travel or put the time in for her. She's always "under explored" even though Jade generally tends to have one of the most active forums on the site for every game she is playable and some of that is complaining, but it's also discussion about strategy and nuances of her play.

Nobody should be complaining about Jade's range because if you block any of her staff strings, her turn is over or the stuff has gaps or even punishable. Back 2 is a high and -13. I fight Jades with Johnny or others and I don't get why people can't just block and then take your turn. It's not like she's -5 with push back and there's no counter play involved. If you lose to Jade, you got outplayed. She's balanced in the sense of most of her pros have legit cons.

I don't think she's bad, but people coming in here and acting like she's so crazy good is weird. I'm sure this will be labelled downplaying, but my core problem is I don't like people trying to shut down discussion with vague details, bring specifics and refute his points.

When I though Blue Beetle was good in Injustice 2 in the early months of the game's life and people told me I was wrong, I had precise arguments on deck and I traveled and used him at tournaments, I could articulate why people's arguments were faulty. That's all I can hope for is that we seek to educate each other instead of just talking at each other cause that does NOTHING for growth or progress.

I mean, I’ve been playing Waz’s Jade which may cloud my judgement.

Yes, it’s your turn after blocking a b2; unless they cancel into shadow kick (which is punishable mind you; unless the amplify).

Her d4 and space control makes her very difficult to approach, and glow means you have to approach in most match ups.

 

[Espio]

I mean, I’ve been playing Waz’s Jade which may cloud my judgement.

Yes, it’s your turn after blocking a b2; unless they cancel into shadow kick (which is punishable mind you; unless the amplify).

Her d4 and space control makes her very difficult to approach, and glow means you have to approach in most match ups.

I should clarify sir, I've always had nothing but love and respect for your opinions, I would just prefer this cycle with Jade push forward because I know we all are very competent, capable players.

Shadow kick is still punishable even if you amplify as it is -18 still. That cancel might mean something if she could cancel into something safe, but in her tournaments variations she cannot. Butterfly, shadow kick, low spark are all punishable and pole vault has a sizable gap as well. There's no reason to be afraid of any of this because if you are correct you hurt her much more than any of these options hitting will. Risk/reward is at play here. No matter what, that matters. If I can punish you for 35% versus you might do 9 to 11% cause I let go of block, I'm gonna take those chances cause you have to be right three times more than I do.

I don't think it's helpful insisting she only has three losing match ups and goes even or better with everyone else. I main Jade and couldn't answer that definitively in any direction and I suspect neither can you. We need to be candid and honest with ourselves instead of going down these roads. If you think she's good, you could just say her good traits and whether people agree or not is whatever, but that type of absolutes is not inviting to productive discussion.


Her space control is solid and that can make characters have to come to her, but that doesn't automatically translate to three losing match ups and 5-5 or favorable the rest. You know that as well as I do. Keeping it all the way 100, having to come to a character doesn't mean they win the match up either, it just means they can set the pace. In Injustice 2 for example, Cheetah had to chase a lot of characters but she didn't lose to Harley for example because of other factors. We gotta look deeper and be more critical. Damage, counter zoning, neutral etc all come into play for match ups. Johnny Cage in MK9 had to come to a lot of characters that he still downright beat because his ability to restand, neutral, and counterzoning options on top of strong, hard to deal with pressure.

 

[GLoRToR]

I mean, I’ve been playing Waz’s Jade which may cloud my judgement.
Yes, it’s your turn after blocking a b2; unless they cancel into shadow kick (which is punishable mind you; unless the amplify).

Amplify is -18 on block and lands Jade in your face at Jab range. You can just throw punish it.
Which is a clusterfuck because it defeats the sideswitch. Anyone who spies you trying to get out of the corner can unbreakable throw you right back in.

But if you go into the lab and check the top 5 characters as a matchup with Jade you'll see where we're all coming from with her. She's not super helpless against them but all her problems are valid. She's at least negative on everything, she can't zone a good chunk of the roster and she struggles because all her options are a lot of risk for no reward.

 

[GLoRToR]

A lot of things in the game either launch or get made safe by meterburn. Shadowkick does neither.

 

[AK Harold]

So far the only match up mentioned being bad is scorpion. That's a good sign. She doesn't have many autowin match ups. She does have to adjust her play to match ups though. If you are playing the same vs each character you are doing it wrong.

Just cuz I have to keep repeating myself and it annoys the shit out of me. Glow is NOT supposed to be used in neutral, stop mentioning it. It's like saying cetrion rock throw sucks cuz it gets stuffed at point blank. It's not how you use the move stop reducing move strengths because you have bad habits of using it wrong.

@THTB noted he can't pinpoint many bad match ups or good ones. That's usually a strong character.

I personally don't like the scorpion match up because of her punishment options. It vaults his risk reward even higher. The same is to be said with kano.

I feel strong against cetrion, Jax, geras, Cassie, Johnny, sub zero

The rest I feel like it's just player strength.

 

[Bronzefist]

I remember Kabal being a really tough match in beta. His jumping 2(?) would stuff every AA option I tried. His fatal blow would put my air projectiles on halt, and it was stupid hard to punish on block. Plus I remember some of his ground normal going right through my b+2, and leading into a combo.

I never see Kabal players now that the full game is out. Did he get nerfed? I just recall telling myself he'd be a PITA on full release.

I think Jaqui is a bad match as well, but that could be due to me not knowing how to stop her string cancels.

 

[GLoRToR]

It's too early to speak on matchups in such a definitive tone, guys.
Scorpion is an exception because he's plain dumb right now. But he's a problem on a mechanical level not a matchup issue imo. If his dumb shit gets righted he'll probably be a fair matchup.

 

[Miasmata123]

Why are you still harping on negative frames a flawless block gap on her positive string? I've explained to you a million times everyone is negative and the only positive strings are strictly highs or have flawless block gaps.

 

[Peckapowa]

Because people are reactionary, haven’t fleshed the character out and don’t know matchups. Rather than play a boring character that has to sit back and play footsies and slowly chip away at your health. She’s boring to play; but she’s strong.

Characters potentially better than Jade:

• Sonya
• Geras
• Cassie
• Jacqui
• Scorpion
• Erron
• Sub
• Baraka

That’s still well within top 10.

Could see skarlet and kabal up there, i also feel liu aint bad