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Everything wrong with Jade

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
There’s nothing wrong with Jade. She’s a very good character. Stop the downplay.
There's a good amount of up-play. And reason to be confused about her toolkit.. literally every move she has leads to death except some that hold no threat.
On paper, plenty of characters can deal with and execute her game-plan more effectively. Oh and she gets about 50% off a punish compared to the rest of the roster and has hitbox issues... you try and make a 28frame wonky normal viable. Can't even use half her wake-up/flawless block options. Dies where characters get mixups. etc

You want downplay, go Scorpion, Sub-zero or Sonya forum. ATM she IS mid-tier versing MKX bs. We all want Nerf Down but until then let the guy speculate...
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I do feel f21 shouldn't be unsafe.

Like hella negative yeah, but why is a 28 frame starter unsafe
Because it has hella range and it blows people up half a screen away on a read. The problem is that it's too slow so perfectly reactable, like you can SEE it coming, literally, AND it doesn't lead to any decent damage either compared to what Lao can do for example off of a launch.
What I think it could use is to be i18, a launcher without the 1 followup (just f2, that's it) and lead to 30%. Then it would be a threat. People would still block low and expect to react to it with no viable low in her kit but it would be much more viable as a punish and as catching people.

The problem with wishing things like this is we, players, have literally no idea of the implications of changing just one move in a system as complex as a fighting game's character balance.

I trust NRS to know what they are doing and maybe even read my post and consider giving her a bit more love.
At the same time, I think it's the top tiers that need to be brought down to everyone else's level and then Kotal, Shao, Frost, Jade and whoever else needs help, can get their turn at being improved as well.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I used to be at odds with GloRtoR in the past because from my point of view he was a troll. The way he would spam status updates and the front page with negative threads complaining about MKX's netcode and lashing out so vehemently and incessantly at NRS for supposedly being the worst company in the world was too much and she seemed to lose some credibility.

But as a Jade fan, he does have a point in this thread. I believe us Jade fans were all traumatized with the way she was treated in MK9. In this game she's kind of underwhelming compared to other characters, and it seems that her being unsafe on almost everything and low damage (HIGH risk/low reward type of character) is somehow justified by long-range normals. They even inexplicably nerfed her Deadly Butterfly move, making it much harder to combo off of it in the corner compared to how easy it was in the beta, and the corner was the only place she could have more elaborate combos instead of settling with canceling her strings into specials. Why?!

Jade deserves better.
I was angry at NRS for their design choices back then.
They did some stupid shit.
Also TYM's climate wasn't as healthy as it is today, even if we have some top tier apologists and shitposters I don't feel so compelled to "stick it to 'em".
You get trolled a few hundred times for speaking your mind, you turn into a troll yourself.

That's in the past, though. If you browse through my post history for injustice 2 on, I stopped trolling way back and I generally make fairly sound calls.
I do get pissed at things like being promised one thing constantly during release and then running into another - like how some characters in mk11 are currently mkx levels of bork - I now have seen enough decent decisionmaking from NRS to know that we're sitting on a great game in the making.

Hopefully balance patches will do us justice.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
not really bout jade, but im more a fan of buff more often than nerf, and nerf only when something is a serious problem.

That being said, in your opinion, which character would you pin as the image of balance in this game so far? Good but not Too good?
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
not really bout jade, but im more a fan of buff more often than nerf, and nerf only when something is a serious problem.

That being said, in your opinion, which character would you pin as the image of balance in this game so far? Good but not Too good?
I think you could make that a thread of its own so we don't derail this one.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I think the main issue is the low damage. To get decent damage you need that slow overhead. They should buff shadow kick damage a lot especially if amplified.
Her Risk/Reward, whether it'll be more safety so she becomes a poke character, or more damage, or something else is entirely dependent on what will change in the game at large with the upcoming patches.

I'm going off the angle that she's underperforming for a good reason and NRS know what they are doing.

I hope I'm right.
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
I've been thinking about how Jade operates. From a design standpoint, Jade is clearly meant to poke, keep out, bait + whiff punish, etc. I would consider her the poster child for what NRS wanted to do with MK11. The only problem with that is that she, along with the others who properly fall into MK11s balance and design philosophies, find themselves in the bottom 10 of the roster because they're just that honest with their negative tradeoffs for their strengths. At this point, I think the most logical buff for her is to slightly increase her damage across the board on her normals + specials and to reassess her KB requirements (and damages). She'll keep her identity while getting a much-needed damage boost (that doesn't involve giving her a launcher) in everything she has while also getting access to actually usable KBs for sudden bursts of damage if she gets multiple proper reads. I consider this a DotA2-esque buff: keep clear weaknesses while make the strengths that much better. In Jade's case, she already has more than enough weaknesses in place that she just needs her strengths made better so she can move out of the high risk / low reward style.

EDIT: When I say "slightly increase her damage across the board," I mean like 10-30 additional damage depending on the move. Everything doing just 1-3% more damage will add up quickly as Jade makes the right reads.
 
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GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I've been thinking about how Jade operates. From a design standpoint, Jade is clearly meant to poke, keep out, bait + whiff punish, etc. I would consider her the poster child for what NRS wanted to do with MK11. The only problem with that is that she, along with the others who properly fall into MK11s balance and design philosophies, find themselves in the bottom 10 of the roster because they're just that honest with their negative tradeoffs for their strengths. At this point, I think the most logical buff for her is to slightly increase her damage across the board on her normals + specials and to reassess her KB requirements (and damages). She'll keep her identity while getting a much-needed damage boost (that doesn't involve giving her a launcher) in everything she has while also getting access to actually usable KBs for sudden bursts of damage if she gets multiple proper reads. I consider this a DotA2-esque buff: keep clear weaknesses while make the strengths that much better. In Jade's case, she already has more than enough weaknesses in place that she just needs her strengths made better so she can move out of the high risk / low reward style.
It's a logical train of thought is all I can say for now.
I stand by saying that we can't look at this one character alone and decide what she needs.
 

Rpgz

Fraudguad/Weeb?
Did OP forget that Khans and Jade are better than Dvorah? Jade IS good compared to real low tier chars...who dont even have viable special moves...like Kotal...imo
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Did OP forget that Khans and Jade are better than Dvorah? Jade IS good compared to real low tier chars...who dont even have viable special moves...like Kotal...imo
I might have forgotten to mention her as a worse character, you're right. Sorry about that.
I know the bugtier struggle is real but trust me, Jade is not amazing right now either compared to most others.
 

Rpgz

Fraudguad/Weeb?
I might have forgotten to mention her as a worse character, you're right. Sorry about that.
I know the bugtier struggle is real but trust me, Jade is not amazing right now either compared to most others.
Dont listen to me, just hope ALL the characters are GOOD next patch! LOVE JADE > BUGS BTW.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Dont listen to me, just hope ALL the characters are GOOD next patch! LOVE JADE > BUGS BTW.
Plenty of DLC are coming, the game hasn't even started yet. (So there will be balance issues for a while, for sure)
Just need to be vocal about problems early on because otherwise she'll sink into forgotten tier again like in mk9.
 
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Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
It's a logical train of thought is all I can say for now.
I stand by saying that we can't look at this one character alone and decide what she needs.
Here's how I'm looking at this. Jade has:
  • Fantastic range that involves weapons so she has safety in extending her reach
  • Glow which is a middle finger to so many moves (and even some characters entirely)
  • Potentially good zoning power if your variation focuses on it
  • An S+ tier D2
  • An S tier D4
  • Great stagger potential due to her range
Basically, Jade should be everyone's least favorite opponent in the neutral as she has options for potentially every scenario to stay in an advantageous position. For these strengths, Jade's power budget gets pulled from the following areas:
  • General damage
  • Combo potential
  • Block safety
  • Whiff safety
  • Speed
I think out of all of these weakened areas, her general damage is the area that makes no sense to me. As I said in the Jade General Discussion thread a while ago, most characters' opponents need to make 4-6 notable mistakes on average before they're done for. Jade's opponents need to make upwards of 9-13+ on average. Her combo potential being intentionally hindered makes sense because it'd be super frustrating if the staff lady got a read on you at a distance you can't do anything about and proceeded to burn meter to get 280+ damage on you (ignoring F21 which can do this because it's stupid slow and impractical). Jade's overall damage being as piss poor as it is is what makes her feel so weak. One successful wiggle stick + butterfly whiff or poke read results in such a small amount of damage that the opponent doesn't really need to care much save for the loss in positioning. They will continue as they were to get in and proceed to take advantage of Jade's low safety and speed (as they should). If all of Jade's moves just did a little more damage, those one-off punishes and pokes would start to get scary as Jade begins taking off chunks of life that can't be ignored. Throw in some sudden bursts of KB damage and viola! Jade's still playing the same as before but now she's actually a threat.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
Here's how I'm looking at this. Jade has:
  • Fantastic range that involves weapons so she has safety in extending her reach
  • Glow which is a middle finger to so many moves (and even some characters entirely)
  • Potentially good zoning power if your variation focuses on it
  • An S+ tier D2
  • An S tier D4
  • Great stagger potential due to her range
Basically, Jade should be everyone's least favorite opponent in the neutral as she has options for potentially every scenario to stay in an advantageous position. For these strengths, Jade's power budget gets pulled from the following areas:
  • General damage
  • Combo potential
  • Block safety
  • Whiff safety
  • Speed
I think out of all of these weakened areas, her general damage is the area that makes no sense to me. As I said in the Jade General Discussion thread a while ago, most characters' opponents need to make 4-6 notable mistakes on average before they're done for. Jade's opponents need to make upwards of 9-13+ on average. Her combo potential being intentionally hindered makes sense because it'd be super frustrating if the staff lady got a read on you at a distance you can't do anything about and proceeded to burn meter to get 280+ damage on you (ignoring F21 which can do this because it's stupid slow and impractical). Jade's overall damage being as piss poor as it is is what makes her feel so weak. One successful wiggle stick + butterfly whiff or poke read results in such a small amount of damage that the opponent doesn't really need to care much save for the loss in positioning. They will continue as they were to get in and proceed to take advantage of Jade's low safety and speed (as they should). If all of Jade's moves just did a little more damage, those one-off punishes and pokes would start to get scary as Jade begins taking off chunks of life that can't be ignored. Throw in some sudden bursts of KB damage and viola! Jade's still playing the same as before but now she's actually a threat.
Sound reasoning, it's perfectly valid.

Though her problems point past her damage and the reason we have come to acknowledge it being risk reward is that some of her specials such as Glow are unreasonably unsafe (-44 is not just unsafe, it's literally unviable*. I've spent a good deal punishing it in various situations in the lab and trust me, a lot of the current cast can create situations where it would even be pure death at -20.
Very few moves are so horribly unsafe.

The second problem is that many of the cast has better overall spacing game. F4's in the game are typically tools that come out fast and often lead to full combos - again the damage - but they do more than that. They circumvent her own spacing game by being simply more efficient tools. Jax, Baraka, Kabal and Liu are some characters who have no business being so much better at spacing with what else they are capable of.

These three factors:
  • Her damage
  • Her horrible frame data / safety
  • Her inferior toolkit in many cases
create the problem of the Risk/Reward.

The reason I say I don't know what she needs is that some of these tools such as Liu's i9 F4 are decidedly overperforming and could be the moves needing the change instead of her own, and that while her horrible frame data is also a problem, Glow and Butterfly are both an essential tool that could make or break the character if they were too good or if they remained like this with other changes.

Simply put, all three of these factors - her risk reward in general - are a difficult thing to balance even for the devs who see the numbers, let alone from our player-side backseat driving.

*unviable in this context doesn't mean you can never use it, it means it's heavily punishable in many situations where she would need it, and that it can only be used in very specific situations. It's often punishable from full screen in the case of teleporters or long distance in the case of some others.
 
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Vhozite

Waiting on SF6
I think character's entire problem is related to f2. It's simply trying to do too many things and ends up bad to mediocre at all of them.

It's her one big damage option that NRS can't risk making too accessible because it's also a raw overhead that also reaches almost half screen. It's like 1/3 combo tool, 1/3 neutral tool, 1/3 pressure tool. Except at 28 frames and -1000 unless spaced it cant properly be used for all those things. Can't really improve the frame data much without accidentally making it the best button in the game.

Imo f2 needs to lose something so that it can get a real buff to be reliable in certain situations. For example i think Jade's main issue is low damage. So I'd prefer if f2 lost its launch and another one of her tools was made into a launcher. Maybe give the launch to the last knee hit of her 124 string or MB Butterfly. Then they can safely speed up f2 and/or make it less punishable since eating a long range overhead won't automatically lead to 300 damage.

There are other ways you could tweak it, but imo something about f2 needs to change.
 
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GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I think character's entire problem is related to f2. It's simply trying to do too many things and ends up bad to mediocre at all of them.

It's her one big damage option that NRS can't risk making too accessible because it's also a raw overhead that also reaches almost half screen. It's like 1/3 combo tool, 1/3 neutral tool, 1/3 pressure tool. Except at 28 frames and -1000 unless spaced it cant properly be used for all those things. Can't really improve the frame data much without accidentally making it the best button in the game.

Imo f2 needs to lose something so that it can get a real buff to be reliable in certain situations. For example i think Jade's main issue is low damage. So I'd prefer if f2 lost its launch and another one of her tools was made into a launcher. Maybe give the launch to the last knee hit of her 124 string or MB Butterfly. Then they can safely speed up f2 and/or make it less punishable since eating a long range overhead won't automatically lead to 300 damage.

There are other ways you could tweak it, but imo something about f2 needs to change.
That's a fair assessment in its own right, it makes perfect sense.
To make it viable it needs to not be so slow which means it also needs rebalancing and possibly a brand new animation.
 

Vhozite

Waiting on SF6
I was actually thinking that depending on how they wanted to spread out Jade's tools the f2 might need a shorter hitbox and animation. Though I suppose they could cut corners and just slide the pole down her hand a bit so her hand is closer to the center. However, I think no matter how you slice it there would end up being animation work somewhere in her kit.

Like my ideal solution would be to keep the same animation and range, but drop the overhead and launch for much faster startup, mid or high level, and a few less frames of recovery. Move her launch to another string or attach it to an amp like butterfly if we want to gate her midscreen damage behind meter (which is reasonable for her archetype). With Fly Amp NRS could duct tape a d2 animation at the end and id be ok lol. If she still needs an overhead (not sure she does), I'd probably make f4 her overhead with some tweaks.

I think that way you could check all the boxes with minimal animation work.

If we really don't want to do all that (understandable), I'd just attach a launch to meterburn Butterfly and call it a day. The launch from an amp could also double as a bypass to the tight corner links/juggles from meterless butterfly. I think paying a bar to nullify/circumvent an execution barrier i find tough to hit online is a fair trade.

Sorry for the long posts.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I was actually thinking that depending on how they wanted to spread out Jade's tools the f2 might need a shorter hitbox and animation. Though I suppose they could cut corners and just slide the pole down her hand a bit so her hand is closer to the center. However, I think no matter how you slice it there would end up being animation work somewhere in her kit.

Like my ideal solution would be to keep the same animation and range, but drop the overhead and launch for much faster startup, mid or high level, and a few less frames of recovery. Move her launch to another string or attach it to an amp like butterfly if we want to gate her midscreen damage behind meter (which is reasonable for her archetype). With Fly Amp NRS could duct tape a d2 animation at the end and id be ok lol. If she still needs an overhead (not sure she does), I'd probably make f4 her overhead with some tweaks.

I think that way you could check all the boxes with minimal animation work.

If we really don't want to do all that (understandable), I'd just attach a launch to meterburn Butterfly and call it a day. The launch from an amp could also double as a bypass to the tight corner links/juggles from meterless butterfly. I think paying a bar to nullify/circumvent an execution barrier i find tough to hit online is a fair trade.

Sorry for the long posts.
Characters have gotten entirely brand new moves before. If NRS deems it necessary, they'll do it.
 

seanpon

Noob
i don't know what NRS will do with her, some characters in injustice 2 were forgotten about and just stayed pretty much the same tier, like Green lantern or cyborg. I don't know what they will do with Jade, bringing down the S tiers would definitely help her, but I think NRS is not going to buff many mid tier characters like Jade or kitana, first they will focus on the shit tier characters like kotal and d"vorah, we probably won't see any Jade buffs in a long time
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Jade is fun, I loved her in the beta. I use her in the actual game as a secondary to Raiden. She's fun yet challenging. Definitely more of a zoner, keep away than flat out combo or rush down character but that's ok. Her damage output could be better but what are you going to do. She has some of the best looking gear in the game with the crazy masks and outfits.
 

sgZick

Noob
I think the opening post is exaggerating a bit. Some points are valid, but most of the prominent tier-lists put her at solid mid-tier which I think is spot on. She has a great toolkit and is fun to play. Most of her weaknesses are in line with the rest of the cast. A couple of things that we can agree upon though are the uselessness of her parry and below average damage, other than that she is fine...
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
I think the opening post is exaggerating a bit. Some points are valid, but most of the prominent tier-lists put her at solid mid-tier which I think is spot on. She has a great toolkit and is fun to play. Most of her weaknesses are in line with the rest of the cast. A couple of things that we can agree upon though are the uselessness of her parry and below average damage, other than that she is fine...
How many matchups have you labbed her in?