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EVERYONE play as Liu Kang!

Noserfatu

My eyes! The goggles do nothing!
The problem isnt liu kang, its this community being stupid asf: Not accepting that LAG does affect the game, refusing to learn frame data and how the game plays, and just being low iq npc's who dickride tournament players opinions with no logic.
Found the 15 year old trump supporter
 

Wigy

There it is...
Because it doesn’t need one. And yes the game will be perfectly fine. The people who complain constantly don’t stick around anyway, regardless of how many patches there are.
How doesn't it? You're saying this game doesn't have glaring balance issues? Like kollector and Kano don't exist? KBs and FBs aren't wildly imbalanced? Pros aren't even trying to antiair like 80% of jump ins?

I don't even begin to understand how you can say this game couldn't use changes. I see no reasonable case for it either, general opinion and stats would agree it needs a whole bunch of changes even outside hitbox fixes which it needs a lot.

I don't get this 'games fine' attitude when tournaments are SO samey at the top level and even worse on KL. There's the occasional exception that everyone blows up about, but it's just that, an exception and half the time nobody talks about them having another character to cover the bullshit.

Whenever I see these comments there's no explanation just some shadey comment aimed at people who do want changes.
 
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kcd117

Noob
The game needs another patch. It doesn’t mean it has to be now tho. We do have characters that are clearly busted and some that are clearly shit and adjustments are needed.

But the “buffs only” requests are kinda stupid. Do we really want a game where we have one character staggering you to death in Liu Kang and tto fix that, devs make other 6 character put you through the same stupid shit? Do we want more characters with 40% unbreakable combos to solve the Geras problem? Do we need more pre patch deadshots to make up for Zonya? That is not the way to handle it lol.
 

Kanalratte

aka FROSTIE
How doesn't it? You're saying this game doesn't have glaring balance issues? Like kollector and Kano don't exist? KBs and FBs aren't wildly imbalanced? Pros aren't even trying to antiair like 80% of jump ins?

I don't even begin to understand how you can say this game couldn't use changes. I see no reasonable case for it either, general opinion and stats would agree it needs a whole bunch of changes even outside hitbox fixes which it needs a lot.

I don't get this 'games fine' attitude when tournaments are SO samey at the top level and even worse on KL. There's the occasional exception that everyone blows up about, but it's just that, an exception and half the time nobody talks about them having another character to cover the bullshit.

Whenever I see these comments there's no explanation just some shadey comment aimed at people who do want changes.
amen bro!
 

Kanalratte

aka FROSTIE
The game needs another patch. It doesn’t mean it has to be now tho. We do have characters that are clearly busted and some that are clearly shit and adjustments are needed.

But the “buffs only” requests are kinda stupid. Do we really want a game where we have one character staggering you to death in Liu Kang and tto fix that, devs make other 6 character put you through the same stupid shit? Do we want more characters with 40% unbreakable combos to solve the Geras problem? Do we need more pre patch deadshots to make up for Zonya? That is not the way to handle it lol.
it will be mkx all over again.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
How doesn't it? You're saying this game doesn't have glaring balance issues? Like kollector and Kano don't exist? KBs and FBs aren't wildly imbalanced? Pros aren't even trying to antiair like 80% of jump ins?

I don't even begin to understand how you can say this game couldn't use changes. I see no reasonable case for it either, general opinion and stats would agree it needs a whole bunch of changes even outside hitbox fixes which it needs a lot.

I don't get this 'games fine' attitude when tournaments are SO samey at the top level and even worse on KL. There's the occasional exception that everyone blows up about, but it's just that, an exception and half the time nobody talks about them having another character to cover the bullshit.

Whenever I see these comments there's no explanation just some shadey comment aimed at people who do want changes.
The game will never be perfectly balanced, no modern day FG ever will be. People need to accept that fact. And the patch hasn’t been out very long, the lower tiered characters can end up better than they seem currently.

Saying there’s issues doesn’t mean there actually is issues. And even stating what you believe the issues are doesn’t mean they are actually issues either. What most of the complaints seem to be are people who want their character to be top 1, and for no other character to be in the same league as their character. These complaints will never cease no matter how many times the game is patched, as I said. Even if you get exactly what you want, a new group will come around doing the exact same thing. Holding their head up and yelling to the skies that the game is unbalanced, broken, needs a new patch, that the top tier are too good, bottom tier are too bad, etc.

Until someone explains why the game already needs another balance patch, and not just “bEcAuSe ThE gAmE iS uNbAlAnCeD”, I will continue to hold the opinion that the game is fine right now. You need to have at least 3-4 months in between balance patches, imo, to have the game fleshed out enough to warrant changes. And when I mean changes I don’t mean obvious broken aspects that exist or could exist, like glitches, exploits, etc. I mean character balance, mainly.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I agree we don't need any nerfs any time soon but I would like hitboxes and hurtboxes fixed across the board. Besides moves wiffing when they shouldn't I don't like certain characters being immune to punish after throwing (Liu Kang) or JIKs wiffing through body on crossover on specific characters.
Kitanas Highborn is obviously good but razors should work on both sides.
Raiden's F1 shouldn't wiff through opponents heads.
Moves shouldn't wiff crouch blocking opponents (highs/mids)
Certain auto shimmy's/specials lean the character back making them invulnerable to punish for example Shangs 11 makes Cassie F4 wiff.
I hope stuff Like that Is fixed. Maybe way down the road it might be nice for struggling characters to get some help though (Kano, Raiden, Kotal etc)
Yeah, all that should be fixed for sure. I’m talking character balance. Actual issues like hitboxes, whiffing, glitches, etc should be fixed whenever they can be, or rather as soon as they can be.
 

Wigy

There it is...
@Juggs

Lower tiered characters arent minus some rare exceptions though, and the usage of characters at the pro level is dominated by select characters.

The stats back this up?

I mean if you're enjoying the game and that's what you want I can't argue with it. But people need to stop with all the shadey comments about people who do. Obviously it got too much before the last patch with good reason. I literally said people can't make a case for it without just throwing out discrediting comments and you replied with a bunch of discrediting comments and I can see no actual meat to your argument.

I don't think the end of this month would be unreasonably quick especially with how conservative they were with changes in the last.

Kano is still essentially the same as day one in his grappler variation.
 
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The problem isnt liu kang, its this community being stupid asf: Not accepting that LAG does affect the game, refusing to learn frame data and how the game plays, and just being low iq npc's who dickride tournament players opinions with no logic.
Nah, the problem is definitely Liu Kang. Something in his pressure has gotta go.
 
Jax, jacquie and kang are a fucking problem considering the rest of the cast. The way throws are designed they are just straight up broken. Too plus, the staggers are broken, too much pressure, just too damn much. Delete them from fucking game or balance them.

Or maybe its the constant lag switchers and shitty connections leaving you unable to godamn move. And if thats the case why cant we get these switchers banned? Most matches are unplayable. Super fuckng pissed at these 300 to 600 pingers when they show sub 100 and match you with them.
 
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Arqwart

Lean, mean, and +14
I agree we don't need any nerfs any time soon but I would like hitboxes and hurtboxes fixed across the board. Besides moves wiffing when they shouldn't I don't like certain characters being immune to punish after throwing (Liu Kang) or JIKs wiffing through body on crossover on specific characters.
Kitanas Highborn is obviously good but razors should work on both sides.
Raiden's F1 shouldn't wiff through opponents heads.
Moves shouldn't wiff crouch blocking opponents (highs/mids)
Certain auto shimmy's/specials lean the character back making them invulnerable to punish for example Shangs 11 makes Cassie F4 wiff.
I hope stuff Like that Is fixed. Maybe way down the road it might be nice for struggling characters to get some help though (Kano, Raiden, Kotal etc)
Please, NRS. This is a UNIVERSAL complaint that affects every single character on this roster while also being stupidly inconsistent. Talk about absolutely wild. There's quite a short list of things that infuriate me about this game and the hurt/hitboxes are easily #1.

Liu's F4
Kitana
Erron's whatever the fuck forward advancing kick that's followed by punch
D2s hitting behind characters MK9 Ermac style (Jade being easily the biggest offender)
Johnny's forceballs
Cassie's entire goddamn hurtbox
Multiple D3s/D4s going Mileena ball roll levels of low profiling
Multiple characters' grabs putting their hurtbox way back except for the couple outreaching active frames (Liu and Lao being HUGE offenders of this. It borderline makes them move a step backwards somehow)
Kitana. Just Kitana. All of Kitana.
Multiple FBs hitting behind the character

As for the topic at hand, I'm gunna have to disagree with you @Juggs concerning the game not needing another balance patch. I don't feel it's any dire need in the short term whatsoever, but there are still some characters that could use a helping hand to move them up to their true potential. I wouldn't mind a little bit of power shaved off certain things on some characters too, but that can come when the hell ever in the future for all I care. I'm much more interested in seeing the entire cast shoved into 3 tiers Tweedy tier list style: slightly above the balance mark, right on the balance mark, slightly under the balance mark. As it is, there's still a couple outliers that need a hand taking that 1-2 steps forward to be at that right mark.
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
Can somebody please upload some game footage of themselves having these issues with liu kang.

I just want to see that there is no answer to what he does.

I'm not big into this game but would to love to have a look at some of your game play
 

John_NX

BUFF KITANA
Please, NRS. This is a UNIVERSAL complaint that affects every single character on this roster while also being stupidly inconsistent. Talk about absolutely wild. There's quite a short list of things that infuriate me about this game and the hurt/hitboxes are easily #1.

Liu's F4
Kitana
Erron's whatever the fuck forward advancing kick that's followed by punch
D2s hitting behind characters MK9 Ermac style (Jade being easily the biggest offender)
Johnny's forceballs
Cassie's entire goddamn hurtbox
Multiple D3s/D4s going Mileena ball roll levels of low profiling
Multiple characters' grabs putting their hurtbox way back except for the couple outreaching active frames (Liu and Lao being HUGE offenders of this. It borderline makes them move a step backwards somehow)
Kitana. Just Kitana. All of Kitana.
Multiple FBs hitting behind the character

As for the topic at hand, I'm gunna have to disagree with you @Juggs concerning the game not needing another balance patch. I don't feel it's any dire need in the short term whatsoever, but there are still some characters that could use a helping hand to move them up to their true potential. I wouldn't mind a little bit of power shaved off certain things on some characters too, but that can come when the hell ever in the future for all I care. I'm much more interested in seeing the entire cast shoved into 3 tiers Tweedy tier list style: slightly above the balance mark, right on the balance mark, slightly under the balance mark. As it is, there's still a couple outliers that need a hand taking that 1-2 steps forward to be at that right mark.
What about kitana??
 
I think, as someone else stated, make f4 a little more negative and make 12 +1 on block.
I don't think f4 should be more negative, but we should evaluate whether he really needs two different hit confirmable 9f staggers that lead to krushing blows (2 in the case of f4). I don't see that making it 10 or 11f somehow kills the character given everything he gets from it, and it forces him to mix his offense up better to stop you from challenging repeated loops.

Dunno, I'm on the fence. I could see that making f4 really bad, but I can't help but hate that on top of everything else it has going it's also tied for fastest mid in the game (curious, most of the scary notable staggers in the game start from 9f mids...) which means not only are you in a rapid-fire guess once he's STARTED his offense, but he'll often beat you to the punch in getting it going because what are you really going to challenge with in those close scramble situations.

1,2 being +1 is still too good. What is the justification for it being + at all? It's basically a pseudo high-high anyway since you're not blocking the first hit and somehow ducking the second unless you're a female it randomly whiffs on, and 'just duck bro' isn't an option since, again, you're off your rocker if you're willing to make that gamble against his mids. Make it high-mid and then make it -1 or -2. It's not like it ends at 1,2 -- he can optionally continue into a mid afterward rendering it yet another confirmable string. I think if we address the new jailable 1,2 he suddenly becomes a lot more tolerable. I'm not terribly against retaining the f4 stuff, it's that COUPLED with everything else that just makes him absurd. I don't want him straight gutted or something.
 
I don't think f4 should be more negative, but we should evaluate whether he really needs two different hit confirmable 9f staggers that lead to krushing blows (2 in the case of f4). I don't see that making it 10 or 11f somehow kills the character given everything he gets from it, and it forces him to mix his offense up better to stop you from challenging repeated loops.

Dunno, I'm on the fence. I could see that making f4 really bad, but I can't help but hate that on top of everything else it has going it's also tied for fastest mid in the game (curious, most of the scary notable staggers in the game start from 9f mids...) which means not only are you in a rapid-fire guess once he's STARTED his offense, but he'll often beat you to the punch in getting it going because what are you really going to challenge with in those close scramble situations.

1,2 being +1 is still too good. What is the justification for it being + at all? It's basically a pseudo high-high anyway since you're not blocking the first hit and somehow ducking the second unless you're a female it randomly whiffs on, and 'just duck bro' isn't an option since, again, you're off your rocker if you're willing to make that gamble against his mids. Make it high-mid and then make it -1 or -2. It's not like it ends at 1,2 -- he can optionally continue into a mid afterward rendering it yet another confirmable string. I think if we address the new jailable 1,2 he suddenly becomes a lot more tolerable. I'm not terribly against retaining the f4 stuff, it's that COUPLED with everything else that just makes him absurd. I don't want him straight gutted or something.
if 12 is only +1 at best he gets a 6 frame d1 or just into another 12 which you should be able to d1 since it’s high high (not sure if the jailing change fixed this so let me know). Even if he chooses to do more than 12 and he does 123 , assuming you’re blocking and decide to do something after the 12, then you should only be getting clipped by one hit. That’s not hit confirmable, nobody can hitconfirm one hit so he’s gambling by attempting that. To my knowledge the f4 f4 stagger is like the only one you can’t react to, everything else is very manageable. If you wait and see f43parry or fireball you can blow it up. F43 is -7 so should be able to punish if he tries anything after and the full string f43u3 has a gap as you know. Granted yes I understand in a game things won’t always go perfect, however more often then not I don’t lose to lius or have too many issues. I do agree that I don’t get why he needs 2 9 frame mids.
 
I guess I just don't see the overall justification. "But you can do x and x," sure, fine, but why doesn't everyone else get a 7f two button +1 block string with two scary 9f mids behind it? He just doesn't need it. He has enough ways to force you into respecting his offense already. I don't see that literally every interaction with Liu Kang needs to be you making a hard read.

They've done a pretty admirable job with their changes so far so whatever they choose I trust it'll work out in the end. +1 is certainly better than +3.
 
I guess I just don't see the overall justification. "But you can do x and x," sure, fine, but why doesn't everyone else get a 7f two button +1 block string with two scary 9f mids behind it? He just doesn't need it. He has enough ways to force you into respecting his offense already. I don't see that literally every interaction with Liu Kang needs to be you making a hard read.

They've done a pretty admirable job with their changes so far so whatever they choose I trust it'll work out in the end. +1 is certainly better than +3.
Only a few those are hard reads though, like maybe f4 into f4, the rest is me just waiting for him to do f4 into something unsafe or do something predictable. Jax’s 12 is 8f and makes him +1 but all he gets is a 6 frame d1 after. Liu can be plus after 12 just don’t make it so I can’t press a button after, that’d be nice haha. And I feel you.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
. I don't see that making it 10 or 11f somehow kills the character given everything he gets from it, and it forces him to mix his offense up better to stop you from challenging repeated loops.
As it stands his 12 jailed into F4 is a 1f link to stop 7f starters and pokes. If F4 went from 9 to 11 it would be interuptable no matter if the liu kang did it perfect.
That would leave him with B1 with less options and D1 or another 12.
I think its fine being +3 he isn't getting hell advantage considering his options. His7f is duckable on read and his poke gives up his turn. B1 doesn't have much range and is -4 on block at best and if finished -7.

He gets a lot from F4 jailed off 12 but it requires a tight link if the opponent is decent.

12 is definitely strong but its not game breaking.
Scorpion has the same shit with his D1 jailed into 21 which is +2 on block and +19 on hit(much better advantage on hit than Kangs 12)
Jax has +6 and +1
Shao has +3
And several other characters have highs that are +1 to +3 on block with decent hit advantage.
Liu's 9f B1 is strong because of the stagger but has little to no range. Which makes his F4 all the more powerful because it has second best range if all his strings and its a 9f mid. Then add if it was 10-11f startup instead of 9 he would have much less punish potential at his max range.
I believe making his F4 10f startup would absolutely hurt him in several ways. I even suggested making it -10 on block to reduce his F4 staggers and options only leaving a -7 stagger with delay into throws which is reactable.
 
As it stands his 12 jailed into F4 is a 1f link to stop 7f starters and pokes. If F4 went from 9 to 11 it would be interuptable no matter if the liu kang did it perfect.
That would leave him with B1 with less options and D1 or another 12.
I think its fine being +3 he isn't getting hell advantage considering his options. His7f is duckable on read and his poke gives up his turn. B1 doesn't have much range and is -4 on block at best and if finished -7.

He gets a lot from F4 jailed off 12 but it requires a tight link if the opponent is decent.

12 is definitely strong but its not game breaking.
Scorpion has the same shit with his D1 jailed into 21 which is +2 on block and +19 on hit(much better advantage on hit than Kangs 12)
Jax has +6 and +1
Shao has +3
And several other characters have highs that are +1 to +3 on block with decent hit advantage.
Liu's 9f B1 is strong because of the stagger but has little to no range. Which makes his F4 all the more powerful because it has second best range if all his strings and its a 9f mid. Then add if it was 10-11f startup instead of 9 he would have much less punish potential at his max range.
I believe making his F4 10f startup would absolutely hurt him in several ways. I even suggested making it -10 on block to reduce his F4 staggers and options only leaving a -7 stagger with delay into throws which is reactable.
Scorpion can't jail into 2,1 anymore off a d1. There's a 6f gap between Liu's blocked 1,2 and a frame perfect f4 (+3 -> 9f startup, also just tested it in practice). So if you're one of 4 characters that happens to have a 6f poke you can at best manage to trade with his mid, I'll need to further test but in this trade Liu may even be able to then combo a 1,2 since his mid should reasonably have more hitstun. Even if not; the only reason 1,2 was ever +3 was it made sense when he couldn't jail into it, being two consecutive highs. It's now ridiculous and Liu blatantly benefitted more than any other char with the universal jailing change.

There's no justification for it remaining +3 given the rest of his tools and the threat of what he can do any time he's at that significant of an advantage. I'll grant that online the Liu 'problem' is compounded a bit and reacting to things is harder, but he's still an obnoxious design. He's not just strong in relation to the rest of the cast; I contend Liu is currently an unhealthy design even in a vacuum. That is to say; even if Liu was the only character in the game and all we ever played were Liu mirrors, where logic would dictate there's an inherent 'balance' in us all having access to the same tools, it's STILL pure cancer to play against and effectively dumbs the game down into everything MK11 was purported NOT to be.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
Scorpion can't jail into 2,1 anymore off a d1.
Its to late for me to reply to your entire post but I'll address this now.

Like I said before there are several characters who jail from D1/D3 into plus frames just like Liu Kang's 12!

Geras can jail from D3 into s3 and he is +3 on block but his only works in the corner:

Yes Scorpion can and does jail from D1 into 21 and it is +2 on block and is +19 on hit. I can do it consistently offline. His D3 is very easy to jail and also jails into 21.
You must be doing it late.
The Frame Data in game is incorrect because he is about +11 on hit. Feels like a 2f link to me.


Kabal can jail from D1 into s2 which is +3 on block and works everywhere:


Cetrion can jail from D1 into s2 which is +3 on block and works everywhere:

Yes liu Kangs +3 is strong but its far from broke. There are many other characters with plus frames off jails I just showed some of the most notible top tiers.
 
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Also what is the purpose for him to have atleast 4 big dmg KBs, he litteraly land every single set + insanely strong landing on will FBs.
How is this fair compare to other characters? And in the top of that, he has best zoning for mixed character and one of the best counter zoning tool in the game + best anti-air in the game.

Why should i be punished for draining my opponent life? I have the upper hand in the round, just to end up losing the round.
If i still manage to survive his FB, its pushback me 10 meters away, so he can easy zone my * out, and i cant do a s** about that, because i have to take the chip damage, because you dont know if low FireBall will come yolo or will be with amplification or he going for High and or a High with amplification.
And on top of that he have his Flying Dragon Kick, which is incredibly fast for the pace of the game, and hard to punish. I know what the frame data is, but in reality its hard to punish it.
Just as his F4 mix move, that will f*** you 9 out of 10 times.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
There's a 6f gap between Liu's blocked 1,2 and a frame perfect f4 (+3 -> 9f startup, also just tested it in practice). So if you're one of 4 characters that happens to have a 6f poke you can at best manage to trade with his mid
Yes that's what I said. It does jail if 12 into F4 is done frame perfect. but if he is late one frame it doesn't and can be interrupted. Exactly why changing his 9f mid to 10 or 11 frame startup would make it interuptable by 7f starters.
But I gotta go to bed.