Early Top 5 thoughts from Sonic Fox

[Skylight1]

lol MK9 Kabal vs Jade, Kenshi vs Jade, Kabal vs everyone. what are you on kid?

Jade was way more about pressure and Kabal was way more than zoning. This is a silly comparison. Kabal dominated the entire cast free off of the stuff he had up-close and how you could easily make his unsafe stuff safe with dash cancels and free 50/50s.

 

[RNLDRGN]

I'm with you that he needs some help, but wouldn't better recovery on f233 be a little much? He's barely minus as it is.

I'm not talking about changing the frames on block, I mean the recovery on hit (possibly whiff).

Swamp can land another F23 after F233 on half the cast, but it is VERY tight. I've landed it in tournament only one time. Same with B233--it can be followed up with F23, but can be even more difficult.

He just needs reliable ways to get damage midscreen seeing as how difficult it is for him to get in.

 

[Somea2V]

Fight me Bro - My living tier list

"living"

S+

Batman

Aquaman

Deadshot

Adam

Darkseid

Superman

Atrocitus

A+
Harley

Canary

Robin

Supergirl


A

Firestorm

GL

poison Ivy

Catwoman

Joker

Dr Fate

Flash

Scarecrow

Cheetah

Arrow

Cyborg

Beetle

Bane


B+

Brainiac

Cold

WW

Grodd


C trash

Swamp

If you don't mind, why do you think Cold is second from bottom tier?

 

[-LD50-]

...um all of it lol

Look at her data. Seriously, what plus pressure? Aside from 1f2 she doesn't really have any.

Not trying to downplay, catwoman is crazy good in this game but plus frames and pressure are not in her toolkit. Strong, safe mids and scary footsies, sure, and add a great walkspeed and she has figurative pressure and can walk you to the corner, but she really can't press buttons to get plus frames.

 

[Shaka]

Jade was way more about pressure and Kabal was way more than zoning. This is a silly comparison. Kabal dominated the entire cast free off of the stuff he had up-close and how you could easily make his unsafe stuff safe with dash cancels and free 50/50s.

I replied to one scrub saying that MUs in Inj2 are the worst of any fighter.... next time maybe learn to read first?

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Max range is his safest option, but it's also the opponent's safest option, since he can't punish the backdash on a correct read at that distance. So if it's at max there's no reason not to backdash out of the gap.

I don't feel like he's all that bad, and I don't think the other GL players think he's all that bad. Vigilante was just saying him not being in anyone's current top 10 is a blow-up to a lot of people who had him in their initial top 5. I agree with most of what you're saying, he's not ass, but I also agree with vigilante that none of this puts him in league with the big boiz.

Personally I don't care about any of it since I don't have character loyalty. I'm playing to win, saw that he wasn't what I was looking for and moved on to Superman lol.

I'm not emo about it, I just happened to play him for a while and saw that you wanted an opinion to why people say he's overrated. I do think that any players who aren't satisfied with their character at 2 or 3 weeks in should definitely switch rather than argue about it on here.

But you know that B13 DOESN'T have a gap at max range, right?

 

[Clark L.]

Black adam is no where near top 10, do you realize how hard it is to do a 3 hit combo for 63%??

You know what baffles me the most, is that no one took this seriously,

Proud of you guys.

 

[9_Lives]

But you know that B13 DOESN'T have a gap at max range, right?

I must be confused then, the ai can still backdash at max distance. What does the distance have to do with the time it takes for a backdash to come out?

 

[Lokheit]

I must be confused then, the ai can still backdash at max distance. What does the distance have to do with the time it takes for a backdash to come out?

The recovery and cancel of moves includes the active frames, which means that if a move had a 3 frames window to escape on block but it hits on the 4th active frame (because during the first 3 active frames it was advancing and it didn't hit) the window would be removed.

 

[DjangoJustin]

Robin is trash tier. Character is garbage.

 

[Juggs]

Interesting, that's good to know. I don't know if it'll be worth the bar all the time, but I'm not a Supergirl player. Thanks for testing.

She never has a bar anyway. Yay I get to waste a bar I spent 30 seconds getting just to not get punished for not turtling, awesome. Then what?

Her b123 needs to be -5 instead of -11. The tiniest of buffs and that's all she really needs, imo. She still will have all of her other weaknesses though.

Also, ftr, 112 is her only plus string. But it starts high so can be ducked, and the 1 to 2 has a gap. Playing against people who know this, it's kinda useless to even use. If the above tiny buff doesn't happen, making 112 start mid could also work.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I must be confused then, the ai can still backdash at max distance. What does the distance have to do with the time it takes for a backdash to come out?

It works at the max, max rage as possible but right now I am testing it and B12 actually catches most backdashes from close/far range so that's definitely a good option considering it's also -1 on block.

 

[Fred Marvel]

It works at the max, max rage as possible but right now I am testing it and B12 actually catches most backdashes from close/far range so that's definitely a good option considering it's also -1 on block.

You can literally poke in between the b1 and 2 and punish him for doing that string. It's garbage.

B1 is good but I'd rather have an 8 frame mid or high that goes into more damage like superman/Adam lol and GL basically has no overheads so there's no mixup just block low unless you're in the corner then expect mb f3. Learn the GL matchup and the player will bang himself I guarantee it. If you're within jump range just jump at him there's nothing he can do but hold it or try to back up and b1 punish it but if he missed he eats a full combo off a jump in.

I'm not downplaying just explaining a character I've been exclusively maining for over 4 years

 

[Fred Marvel]

Deadshot is very good BUT great players can walk him down. That's were mb riffle comes in. There is no really unpredictability in his zoning. Like a sinestro trait that makes people go, "ok I'm not sure I can move right now"

For me, his difficult matchups are :

green lantern( amazing forward walk speed and out footsies me badly, nopunish for b13close lantern)

D1 assassin knee to punish it then back dash and zone more, or just do mb rifle to push him back even further. Always equip blue trait. And mix trick shot in don't just do the high straight shot. If he's getting into footsie range use your b1 you can catch him before h catches you. GL gets destroyed in this matchup.

 

[AfroBreezy]

lol MK9 Kabal vs Jade, Kenshi vs Jade, Kabal vs everyone. what are you on kid?

You must not understand what I said.

 

[9_Lives]

It works at the max, max rage as possible but right now I am testing it and B12 actually catches most backdashes from close/far range so that's definitely a good option considering it's also -1 on block.

I was aware of B12. Most of the time I just prefer to use it closer because I can stagger the b1, then use a follow up b13 if I see the backdash come out. But b12 is a good safe option. I think some can MB b3 out but that's a spend read if we can just stagger it.

 

[Shaka]

You must not understand what I said.

You said that Inj2 has the worst MUs of any fighter ever, I pointed out obvious MUs that were much worse.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

You can literally poke in between the b1 and 2 and punish him for doing that string. It's garbage.

B1 is good but I'd rather have an 8 frame mid or high that goes into more damage like superman/Adam lol and GL basically has no overheads so there's no mixup just block low unless you're in the corner then expect mb f3. Learn the GL matchup and the player will bang himself I guarantee it. If you're within jump range just jump at him there's nothing he can do but hold it or try to back up and b1 punish it but if he missed he eats a full combo off a jump in.

I'm not downplaying just explaining a character I've been exclusively maining for over 4 years

Yeah and that's called a mindgame... Your B13 is hit-confirmable and safe on block, it has a gap allowing backdashes but he can use B12 for that, which has a gap for normals but then you can blow it up with B13 again.
B1 is one of the best normals in the game... If B13 was safe and didn't have a gap it would be stupid... It being a low is not the big deal about it but the range and speed it has are amazing.

I've been anti-aired by Green Lantern players with instant jump 1, I don't really buy that whole thing about him beimg free to jumps at all, maybe he doesn't have the best anti-airs but you can definitely not just jump against him and he will have to take it.

I mean... Everytime I see you talk bout GL you're saying "he gets destroyed in this MU", "he got heavily nerfed", "he's free to zoning", "just backdash his B1" you really downplay him all day... I can see him not being great but he is a very solid character.

 

[Metzos]

I m gonna really have to check Pig's stream on Sunday for Fox's Darkseid cause putting him in top 5, even if the player saying it is Fox, is too much.

I would switch Darkseid and Deadshot with Batman and Superman, imo.

Canary is pretty strong as well, same with Cheetah.

Also, switch Bane with Catwoman or Canary and current top 10 is probably set.

Also, why no one mentions Flash? Just saying.

 

[Juggs]

I haven't got to play supergirl yet. She has good zoning and mobility. What are the big issues with her?

I know people say her damage is low. And b12 to whatever follow up can be poked out. Just curious your thoughts on why's she is bad

She isn't necessarily "bad" in the sense of the word, she just isn't viable as a stand alone character. And she certainly cannot compete with top tier, although she does well against Deadshot because of her mobility.

To answer your other question about Foxy and Scar. Scar said it on twitter, Foxy mentioned it on here. I can find them later if you want, or you can just ask them how they feel about Supergirl.

Here's a list of weaknesses she has that prevents her from being a top 15 character:

- Very hard to build meter. Her projectile is a trait and only builds a tiny bit of meter on hit/block.

- Her strings aren't great. Only true plus string is 112 that is +2 but it has a gap in it, starts high, and has virtually no range. It is easily duckable so it's kinda pointless to use. Her best string, B12 while it has good range and is good in footsies and whiff punishing is -9 on block, even B123 which the 3 can't be special canceled, is -11 on block. Her B2, 1+3 is her only overhead, and it's -35 on block.

- She needs meter she hardly ever has to do mediocre damage. Even in the corner she does mediocre damage, since the float combos scale each time you float.

- Only way to make her strings safe is MB Ice Breath, which is -5. Regular Ice Breath is -20 while the extended version is -18. Although the extended version not every character can punish because of pushback, but most can. The reason MB Breath isn't that great is because while it does make her strings safe, she rarely has the bar for it. And wasting a resource as valuable as her meter really hurts her.

- Her teleport is decent, but has 31 frames of startup, and is -24 on block. MB version is -25. For a lot of the quicker projectiles, she has to read them instead of react. If she reads it wrong and you block, full combo punish. The risk heavily outweighs the reward.

- Her restand string is +0, so kinda pointless to do. Only good in very specific situations. You're much better off going for a HDK and doing F3 mixups.

- Her wakeup is also not horrible, but is -29 on block. Can't combo off of it unless your opponent is in the corner and you MB it. And it's not advancing, it goes straight up. If blocked, you're screwed. This isn't a big negative for her but worth noting.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

Yeah and that's called a mindgame... Your B13 is hit-confirmable and safe on block, it has a gap allowing backdashes but he can use B12 for that, which has a gap for normals but then you can blow it up with B13 again.
B1 is one of the best normals in the game... If B13 was safe and didn't have a gap it would be stupid... It being a low is not the big deal about it but the range and speed it has are amazing.

I've been anti-aired by Green Lantern players with instant jump 1, I don't really buy that whole thing about him beimg free to jumps at all, maybe he doesn't have the best anti-airs but you can definitely not just jump against him and he will have to take it.

I mean... Everytime I see you talk bout GL you're saying "he gets destroyed in this MU", "he got heavily nerfed", "he's free to zoning", "just backdash his B1" you really downplay him all day... I can see him not being great but he is a very solid character.

Character has bad MUs = Character is bad

Case closed

 

[Basic Stupidity]

She isn't necessarily "bad" in the sense of the word, she just isn't viable as a stand alone character. And she certainly cannot compete with top tier, although she does well against Deadshot because of her mobility.

To answer your other question about Foxy and Scar. Scar said it on twitter, Foxy mentioned it on here. I can find them later if you want, or you can just ask them how they feel about Supergirl.

Here's a list of weaknesses she has that prevents her from being a top 15 character:

- Very hard to build meter. Her projectile is a trait and only builds a tiny bit of meter on hit/block.

- Her strings aren't great. Only true plus string is 112 that is +2 but it has a gap in it, starts high, and has virtually no range. It is easily duckable so it's kinda pointless to use. Her best string, B12 while it has good range and is good in footsies and whiff punishing is -9 on block, even B123 which the 3 can't be special canceled, is -11 on block. Her B2, 1+3 is her only overhead, and it's -35 on block.

- She needs meter she hardly ever has to do mediocre damage. Even in the corner she does mediocre damage, since the float combos scale each time you float.

- Only way to make her strings safe is MB Ice Breath, which is -5. Regular Ice Breath is -20 while the extended version is -18. Although the extended version not every character can punish because of pushback, but most can. The reason MB Breath isn't that great is because while it does make her strings safe, she rarely has the bar for it. And wasting a resource as valuable as her meter really hurts her.

- Her teleport is decent, but has 31 frames of startup, and is -24 on block. MB version is -25. For a lot of the quicker projectiles, she has to read them instead of react. If she reads it wrong and you block, full combo punish. The risk heavily outweighs the reward.

- Her restand string is +0, so kinda pointless to do. Only good in very specific situations. You're much better off going for a HDK and doing F3 mixups.

- Her wakeup is also not horrible, but is -29 on block. Can't combo off of it unless your opponent is in the corner and you MB it. And it's not advancing, it goes straight up. If blocked, you're screwed. This isn't a big negative for her but worth noting.

Damn all this time supergirls been bottom 5?

Come on bro, do you really believe shes not even top 15?

 

[Fred Marvel]

Yeah and that's called a mindgame... Your B13 is hit-confirmable and safe on block, it has a gap allowing backdashes but he can use B12 for that, which has a gap for normals but then you can blow it up with B13 again.
B1 is one of the best normals in the game... If B13 was safe and didn't have a gap it would be stupid... It being a low is not the big deal about it but the range and speed it has are amazing.

I've been anti-aired by Green Lantern players with instant jump 1, I don't really buy that whole thing about him beimg free to jumps at all, maybe he doesn't have the best anti-airs but you can definitely not just jump against him and he will have to take it.

I mean... Everytime I see you talk bout GL you're saying "he gets destroyed in this MU", "he got heavily nerfed", "he's free to zoning", "just backdash his B1" you really downplay him all day... I can see him not being great but he is a very solid character.

j1 is an air to air not an anti air lol and you can backdash b12, lab b12 and look at how slow it is you can stand jab punish it. and yes you can jump from jump attack range and lanterns might will whiff, lanterns might cant be used to whiff punish or as a footsie tool anymore.

also b1 is not one of the best normals in the game at all, it was in IGAU but not in this with all the stupid shit scarecrow has, adam, superman, aquaman, catwoman, swamp thing, robin etc have. its really not among the best its just a low. it is good for sure but one of the best? nope.

and im not downplaying im just informing you that the character is nowhere near viable he isnt good he wasnt viable in the first game and he was toned down. the other legacy characters got cha nges and some nerfs and buffs but the only buffs GL got are his forward dash distance and walk speed.

if youre mad about me saying deadshot destroys him go to the GL forums and see if they disagree, its a fact that anyone can backdash b1 so how is that downplaying? im not even salty about it because im gonna main red hood i just want people to stop thinking he's a powerful character when he isnt.

instead of assuming im downplaying and arguing why dont you try testing the stuff out and playing as GL. i didnt start saying he was garbage as soon as i found out he needed buffs i gave it a few weeks lol

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

j1 is an air to air not an anti air lol and you can backdash b12, lab b12 and look at how slow it is you can stand jab punish it. and yes you can jump from jump attack range and lanterns might will whiff, lanterns might cant be used to whiff punish or as a footsie tool anymore.

also b1 is not one of the best normals in the game at all, it was in IGAU but not in this with all the stupid shit scarecrow has, adam, superman, aquaman, catwoman, swamp thing, robin etc have. its really not among the best its just a low. it is good for sure but one of the best? nope.

and im not downplaying im just informing you that the character is nowhere near viable he isnt good he wasnt viable in the first game and he was toned down. the other legacy characters got cha nges and some nerfs and buffs but the only buffs GL got are his forward dash distance and walk speed.

if youre mad about me saying deadshot destroys him go to the GL forums and see if they disagree, its a fact that anyone can backdash b1 so how is that downplaying? im not even salty about it because im gonna main red hood i just want people to stop thinking he's a powerful character when he isnt.

instead of assuming im downplaying and arguing why dont you try testing the stuff out and playing as GL. i didnt start saying he was garbage as soon as i found out he needed buffs i gave it a few weeks lol

Air to air... Whatever! You can hit people out of the air with that.

Are you really saying Swamp Thing has a better normal than Green Lantern? Wat...


You literally started downplaying when they showed him for the first time ever in that Watchtower stream...

 

[Fred Marvel]

Air to air... Whatever! You can hit people out of the air with that.

Are you really saying Swamp Thing has a better normal than Green Lantern? Wat...


You literally started downplaying when they showed him for the first time ever in that Watchtower stream...

No I think aquaman has a better normal, I'm saying there's tons of characters with good normals in the game. And lmao I'm not downplaying idk what I even said the but I probably wasn't impressed since they took away his best tools