Match-up Discussion Doomsday Matchup Discussion

[SonicBoomBrad]

Alright a few things, Doomsday is a viable tournament main, you just need a back up for Superman. Possibly Batman, but there aren't really any top level Batman's in SoCal for me to test that out against.

Doomsday Aqua is not 10-0 with this glitch, it's probably more like 6-4. You can punish his trident rush, which most characters in the game can't do. Without the glitch it was 5-5 easy. I don't really get this community man.

 

[migosan]

for me his worst matchup is adam or shazam? i dont really have any problems with supes, dash then d1, and patient game with all the lazerz, hope i can upload some matches vs supes

 

[Vintagesoul]

Alright a few things, Doomsday is a viable tournament main, you just need a back up for Superman. Possibly Batman, but there aren't really any top level Batman's in SoCal for me to test that out against.

Doomsday Aqua is not 10-0 with this glitch, it's probably more like 6-4. You can punish his trident rush, which most characters in the game can't do. Without the glitch it was 5-5 easy. I don't really get this community man.

If you have to change your character to fight 2-3 of the most dominant characters in the game, I don't consider the character a viable tournament main

We're already seeing weeklies where superman takes 2-3 of the top spots.

Given that there is no character who outright beats superman (hawkgirl? Lol), a doomsday player needs to learn his counter superman character's match up against superman at a level better than the superman player knows it. That's not something you can do with a pocket character that you just keep for the Superman match up.

But sure, the phrase "not a viable tournament main" is an ill defined one, and very debatable, so I'm not going to defend it further.

 

[Vintagesoul]

for me his worst matchup is adam or shazam? i dont really have any problems with supes, dash then d1, and patient game with all the lazerz, hope i can upload some matches vs supes

You need to play better Superman players if you can get away with forward dash d1 to consistently get in.

 

[migosan]

You need to play better Superman players if you can get away with forward dash d1 to consistently get in.

no i dont forward dash d1 to get in, lol, dash back at the right time will be a big help in this match up, react to supes and not be aggressive is the key for me

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

If you have to change your character to fight 2-3 of the most dominant characters in the game, I don't consider the character a viable tournament main

We're already seeing weeklies where superman takes 2-3 of the top spots.

Given that there is no character who outright beats superman (hawkgirl? Lol), a doomsday player needs to learn his counter superman character's match up against superman at a level better than the superman player knows it. That's not something you can do with a pocket character that you just keep for the Superman match up.

But sure, the phrase "not a viable tournament main" is an ill defined one, and very debatable, so I'm not going to defend it further.

It's not really a question of how bad the match up is, Superman is obviously broken. He'll get nerfed in the next patch. And it should make the match up a lot more winnable. I just hope SoCal still has a scene by then.

 

[Metzos]

My current DD MU chart:

5-5 vs Aquaman

4-6 vs Batman (could be 7-3 Batman)

4-6 vs Superman (could be 7-3 Superman)

4-6 vs Nightwing

6-4 vs Scorpion

5-5 vs Wonder Woman

6-4 vs Harley Quinn

6-4 vs Joker (could be 7-3 DD)

5-5 vs Deathstroke

5-5 vs Green Lantern

4-6 vs Killer Frost

6-4 vs Sinestro

6-4 vs Ares

4-6 vs Black Adam

6-4 vs Lex Luthor (could be 5-5)

7-3 vs Raven

5-5 vs Solomon Grundy

5-5 vs Bane

5-5 vs Catwoman

5-5 vs Flash

5-5 vs Hawkgirl (could be 6-4 DD)

6-4 vs Lobo

5-5 vs Cyborg

5-5 vs Green Arrow (could be 6-4 DD)

5-5 vs Shazam (could be 6-4 DD)

4-6 vs Zod

 

[Qwark28]

My current DD MU chart:

5-5 vs Aquaman

4-6 vs Batman

4-6 vs Superman (could be 7-3 Superman)

4-6 vs Nightwing

6-4 vs Scorpion

5-5 vs Wonder Woman

6-4 vs Harley Quinn

6-4 vs Joker

5-5 vs Deathstroke

5-5 vs Green Lantern

4-6 vs Killer Frost

6-4 vs Sinestro

6-4 vs Ares

4-6 vs Black Adam

6-4 vs Lex Luthor

7-3 vs Raven

5-5 vs Solomon Grundy

5-5 vs Bane

5-5 vs Catwoman

5-5 vs Flash

5-5 vs Hawkgirl

6-4 vs Lobo

5-5 vs Cyborg

5-5 vs Green Arrow (could be 6-4 DD)

5-5 vs Shazam


Dont have extensive MU experience vs Zatanna, MMH, Zod and Batgirl.

AK Pig Of The Hut (Zod), Zatanna players, REO(MMH), @Batgirl players.

ive been rethinking a couple of matchups the past few days and this is what i believe

6 4 shazam

6 4 GA

6 4 hawkgirl

4 6 flash

7 3 joker

5 5 lex

5 5 sinestro

3 7 batman

reasoning

Any char whose rushdown is inferior to doomsday but has to come to him without any kind of setups automaticly loses E.G shazam/joker/GA/flying chicken. ineffective and gimmicky low tier rushdown with no way of stalling/zoning and keepaway is a sure loss.

not having 2 hit projectiles to break armour is bad E.G joker, flying chicken, shazam, ga

having to play doomsdays game when he has lead and can just wait for trait is a disadvantage

characters who rely on jumping to open people up and are mediocre even then lose e.g joker/hawkgirl

characters who can rush down DD the same way he wants to rush them go even or win. When a char like flash gives up easier mobility tools for ridiculous damage and setups and you have a char who gives up that damage and setup capability to get in easier in a rushdown oriented matchup then its bad - flash/luthor

thankfully, luthor being a setup char and not a zoning one keeps it even. he will not zone but you will not overwhelm him with your rushdown either vs a good lex

i wanted to think joker doomsday was 6 4 because many people were telling me but there is no way

joker cant outzone doomsday when one HIGH and only 8% gunshot is a free venom on whiff... can't jump to open him up, has no mixups and can only rely on wallcarry. By being hit. This matchup only turns around when joker reverses the corner situation and gets 2-3 resets going if he has the 2 bars to do so and he still has to open up doomsday by jumping. not easy, parry is low damage and meaningless boost while harder to use vs venom than batmans

batman is bad because he can rush you down, he can break your trait, he can very easily outzone you and his bats are broken. did i just block a sweep? 1 bat combo. same applies for almost any close range whiff.

 

[Narcissisms]

Aquaman's range and damage output is ridiculous, on top of his zoning and trait, I'd put that at 4-6.
Haven't played the BA match up much, his zoning is godly, but feels like he can't do much up close against DD other than back dash and lightning cage. Not doubting that's a bad match up though. These are just my two cents.

I agree with Metzos and more so Qwark on everything though, other than Aquaman and maybe BA.

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

Lex is a difficult match up actually. When he has trait up it's very hard for you to do anything. And his trait's cooldown time is so minimal that it doesn't matter. I can actually see this becoming a bad match up if they buff him, unless we get something too. Right now it's a lot harder than most people probably think though, but that's just from my experience in sets with revolver. I still think it's 5-5, don't get me wrong. But it is a difficult match up if you don't know how to approach it properly. Before I played revolver I would've called it an easy 6-4.

 

[LEGEND]

i agree with 5-5 on the Sinestro mu

but it could be 6-4 Sinestro once everyone gets comfortable with all of doomsday's mix-ups and can punish the wiffed low hit of earthshaker with B13 consistently. We'll have to see how things develop
-

Agree with 5-5 in the Flash MU and i see how it can be in Flash's favor as well. I actually really want to run more sets with brad in this MU

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

Agree with 5-5 in the Flash MU and i see how it can be in Flash's favor as well. I actually really want to run more sets with brad in this MU

I love characters with fully invincible 360 hitting wake ups.

 

[LEGEND]

I love characters with fully invincible 360 hitting wake ups.

that are also minus a billion and do 7% damage

grrr those cheap wake-ups

 

[Qwark28]

4 6 zod also

 

[Metzos]

MU chart updated. See post #202.

 

[Metzos]

ive been rethinking a couple of matchups the past few days and this is what i believe

6 4 shazam

6 4 GA

6 4 hawkgirl

4 6 flash

7 3 joker

5 5 lex

5 5 sinestro

3 7 batman

reasoning

Any char whose rushdown is inferior to doomsday but has to come to him without any kind of setups automaticly loses E.G shazam/joker/GA/flying chicken. ineffective and gimmicky low tier rushdown with no way of stalling/zoning and keepaway is a sure loss.

not having 2 hit projectiles to break armour is bad E.G joker, flying chicken, shazam, ga

having to play doomsdays game when he has lead and can just wait for trait is a disadvantage

characters who rely on jumping to open people up and are mediocre even then lose e.g joker/hawkgirl

characters who can rush down DD the same way he wants to rush them go even or win. When a char like flash gives up easier mobility tools for ridiculous damage and setups and you have a char who gives up that damage and setup capability to get in easier in a rushdown oriented matchup then its bad - flash/luthor

thankfully, luthor being a setup char and not a zoning one keeps it even. he will not zone but you will not overwhelm him with your rushdown either vs a good lex

i wanted to think joker doomsday was 6 4 because many people were telling me but there is no way

joker cant outzone doomsday when one HIGH and only 8% gunshot is a free venom on whiff... can't jump to open him up, has no mixups and can only rely on wallcarry. By being hit. This matchup only turns around when joker reverses the corner situation and gets 2-3 resets going if he has the 2 bars to do so and he still has to open up doomsday by jumping. not easy, parry is low damage and meaningless boost while harder to use vs venom than batmans

batman is bad because he can rush you down, he can break your trait, he can very easily outzone you and his bats are broken. did i just block a sweep? 1 bat combo. same applies for almost any close range whiff.

Agreed for Hawkgirl, Batman, Joker and Shazam.

About Sinestro, i have played this match against @dittO's Sinestro and trust me its not good for Sinestro if DD plays smart. Every blocked projectile or meteor is a free MB Venom from DD's part and he is in. B13 can be punished with d1xxES or venom on block and Sinestro virtually has no mix-ups like DD when up close. I really dont know how this MU is not in DD's favor, honestly.

Against Lex Luthor, i believe all DD has to fear when up close is his trait. Other than that, his setups and his zoning can be countered by MB Venom and a well timed MB Nova. DD's d1 when up close is faster against everything Luthor has. That alone gives DD the edge he needs to continuously apply pressure on Luthor and safely build meter. Not to also mention that his dash on block is punished by a full combo, even by DD.

GA is tricky cause of his (cant remember the name of the move) moving back and shoot arrow move. Its safe on block and it allows GA to safely escape DD's pressure. It can be, though, punished with a well timed MB Venom or MB Nova if GA starts spamming it.

 

[Metzos]

i agree with 5-5 on the Sinestro mu

but it could be 6-4 Sinestro once everyone gets comfortable with all of doomsday's mix-ups and can punish the wiffed low hit of earthshaker with B13 consistently

Dont see it happening. If we go the other way around, then DD can punish Sinestro's B13 with d1xxES or d1xxMB Venom and wall carry. This MU is bad for Sinestro if DD plays it correctly.

 

[Qwark28]

Agreed for Hawkgirl, Batman, Joker and Shazam.

About Sinestro, i have played this match against @Ditt0's Sinestro and trust me its not good for Sinestro if DD plays smart. Every blocked projectile or meteor is a free MB Venom from DD's part and he is in. B13 can be punished with d1xxES or venom on block and Sinestro virtually has no mix-ups like DD when up close. I really dont know how this MU is not in DD's favor, honestly.

Against Lex Luthor, i believe all DD has to fear when up close is his trait. Other than that, his setups and his zoning can be countered by MB Venom and a well timed MB Nova. DD's d1 when up close is faster against everything Luthor has. That alone gives DD the edge he needs to continuously apply pressure on Luthor and safely build meter. Not to also mention that his dash on block is punished by a full combo, even by DD.

GA is tricky cause of his (cant remember the name of the move) moving back and shoot arrow move. Its safe on block and it allows GA to safely escape DD's pressure. It can be, though, punished with a well timed MB Venom or MB Nova if GA starts spamming it.

I played the sinestro MU with pig a month ago for a few sets, B13/Boulder is not something sinestro must do in this matchup.

B1 is hitconfirmed to either 2 or 3, B12 on block is -5 and backdashable if you don't do venom after it.

Boulders are used to catch projectiles and jump/air dash happy opponents.

Sinestro can always do a fear blast delayed when he has meter, this is the exact same way he catches BA divekicks over his fear blasts. he can do one and hold it until the last second and it's a 50/50 of whether you block or advance. This happens every time sinestro has a bar, it does not allow you to easily move. He also has decent damage and trait fill whenever he finishes a combo. If that was all he had it'd be 6 4 doomsday but he also has trait to factor in so I have it as 5 5

GAs savage blast is 8% with no combo and it pushes him towards the corner, you want that. He has low damage, iffy mixups and ineffective zoning vs MB venom and trait.

Lex has frametraps and mine setups as well as setups out the ass if he knocks you down with anything, he can really limit your options when played properly, very few people play a good lex, maybe like 3-4.

 

[Qwark28]

Also, when we play I'll show you why BA is 7 3. I still refuse to believe the matchup is only slightly advantageous for BA.

 

[Metzos]

I played the sinestro MU with pig a month ago for a few sets, B13/Boulder is not something sinestro must do in this matchup.

B1 is hitconfirmed to either 2 or 3, B12 on block is -5 and backdashable if you don't do venom after it.

Boulders are used to catch projectiles and jump/air dash happy opponents.

Sinestro can always do a fear blast delayed when he has meter, this is the exact same way he catches BA divekicks over his fear blasts. he can do one and hold it until the last second and it's a 50/50 of whether you block or advance. This happens every time sinestro has a bar, it does not allow you to easily move. He also has decent damage and trait fill whenever he finishes a combo. If that was all he had it'd be 6 4 doomsday but he also has trait to factor in so I have it as 5 5

GAs savage blast is 8% with no combo and it pushes him towards the corner, you want that. He has low damage, iffy mixups and ineffective zoning vs MB venom and trait.

Lex has frametraps and mine setups as well as setups out the ass if he knocks you down with anything, he can really limit your options when played properly, very few people play a good lex, maybe like 3-4.

DD does have a guaranteed MB Venom after B12 though man. And if Sinestro doesnt back dash, DD has a guaranteed d1xxES. Sinestro does not have time to build trait meter if DD starts gaining momentum. MB Venom alone shuts down Sinestro's zoning.

Boulders will be used at least ONCE and if DD expects that, qq. DD does not need to jump against Sinestro. Dashing alone will do the work.

 

[Metzos]

Also, when we play I'll show you why BA is 7 3. I still refuse to believe the matchup is only slightly advantageous for BA.

We ll see i guess.

 

[Qwark28]

DD does have a guaranteed MB Venom after B12 though man. And if Sinestro doesnt back dash, DD has a guaranteed d1xxES. Sinestro does not have time to build trait meter if DD starts gaining momentum. MB Venom alone shuts down Sinestro's zoning.

Boulders will be used at least ONCE and if DD expects that, qq. DD does not need to jump against Sinestro. Dashing alone will do the work.

its not guaranteed when b12 is -5 and venom is 15f.

boulder will never be used man, one free entry is not the whole game.

i said why mb venom will not work vs fear blast

 

[Metzos]

its not guaranteed when b12 is -5 and venom is 15f.

boulder will never be used man, one free entry is not the whole game.

i said why mb venom will not work vs fear blast

I meant if Sinestro decides to back dash. And if he doesnt DD has a guaranteed d1xxES.

Even then, DD has trait to counter Sinestro's MB fear blast. Ditt0 has tried all these stuff and they didnt work before. Against a DD player who has patience, Sinestro loses. Not badly, but he loses.

 

[Espio]

I did a breakdown of the match up in the Hawkgirl forums a month ago on why I thought it was 5-5 when we discussed it, but I'll just post some quick thoughts since it has been a while.

Down 1, and wing evade 3 are really good for checking Doomsday's trait

Hawkgirl's down 2 has such a good hitbox, it's very good for blowing up Doomsday's body splash.


Doomsday doesn't actually restrict Hawkgirl's movement or stop her from playing her game, he just makes her play it smarter and not rely on trait as much, which is fine because all of her other major mobility tools are still available to her. She can get in and because she can end all her strings in plus or safe options with massive pushback, it allows her to come in and then retreat much more easily than other characters. She can also stay in and pressure too.


Her normals can compete with his and her midscreen damage is on par with his as well. There's not really a spot on the screen where Doomsday or Hawkgirl has a real advantage to be honest although Hawkgirl can sometimes zone here and there, especially if she uses MB mace tosses from time to time.

There's nothing gimmicky about her pressure either because it works on characters with faster normals than Doomsday...down 1 +wing evade 3 + 3,2, back 1 +Mace charge + 2,2, up 3 to name a few of her solid mids and specials that are either plus on block or safe/slightly minus and the negative moves usually have massive pushback or in the case of down 1, minus 1, which is still safe and hard to check with anything.

She shouldn't fear going toe to toe with Doomsday, she has the tools to do.

And that was supposed to be short lol.

 

[Metzos]

I did a breakdown of the match up in the Hawkgirl forums a month ago on why I thought it was 5-5 when we discussed it, but I'll just post some quick thoughts since it has been a while.

Down 1, and wing evade 3 are really good for checking Doomsday's trait

Hawkgirl's down 2 has such a good hitbox, it's very good for blowing up Doomsday's body splash.


Doomsday doesn't actually restrict Hawkgirl's movement or stop her from playing her game, he just makes her play it smarter and not rely on trait as much, which is fine because all of her other major mobility tools are still available to her. She can get in and because she can end all her strings in plus or safe options with massive pushback, it allows her to come in and then retreat much more easily than other characters. She can also stay in and pressure too.


Her normals can compete with his and her midscreen damage is on par with his as well. There's not really a spot on the screen where Doomsday or Hawkgirl has a real advantage to be honest although Hawkgirl can sometimes zone here and there, especially if she uses MB mace tosses from time to time.

There's nothing gimmicky about her pressure either because it works on characters with faster normals than Doomsday...down 1 +wing evade 3 + 3,2, back 1 +Mace charge + 2,2, up 3 to name a few of her solid mids and specials that are either plus on block or safe/slightly minus and the negative moves usually have massive pushback or in the case of down 1, minus 1, which is still safe and hard to check with anything.

She shouldn't fear going toe to toe with Doomsday, she has the tools to do.

And that was supposed to be short lol.

DD's upward venom destroys her trait and in general, her aerial movement, which means that the MU on her behalf must be played on the ground, most of the time. I have it currently as an even MU in my chart, although that could change in the future. Cant wait to see what changes NRS has made for DD. I really hope they dont nerf him to the ground, cause he isnt either top tier or low. Reality being, he actually NEEDS some buffs tbh.