Question Do you really think Raiden is unexplored?

[KingHippo]

This is a really good honest post

BTW Im excited to see if you use raiden at SCR cause I really dig how you use him

B W1zZ I think the main thing people want to succeed is Raiden succeed. If I had made one top 8 in 2011 w kenshi but PL came in w kenshi and had greater success then i have to ask myself what did he do that I didnt. I dont know if you have tourney nerves, or mu issues or what but you're fully capable of making top 8 but you have to be real with yourself and fix the issues. When i have an issue and i have a tourney come up i make it a my daily duty as i do breathing. But im always realistic

He won't be out in tournament, but I'll play him against whoever wants to in casuals.

 

[SLy]

Lets keep it a 100%

Raiden is not even that much of in depth and complicated character to be called unexplored. He just doesn't have any representatives in the spotlight right now. Raiden takes a certain type of Discipline that not many people want to deal with. So they learn his basics and try to pocket him. We are in a era where pocket raidens get blowned up. That's why we need people to bring him up in that limelight the same way Pig did to kenshi. Its one thing to know nearly everything about him but if your knowledge is not matching up with your placings and dedication then Raiden will never be broadcasted like he should be..

Therefore people will always think hes unexplored

 

[B W1zZ]

Wizz, I respect ya a lot as a player, so that's why I gotta keep it completely real. Saying you lost the tournament matches you have in the past year because 'I didn't know the matchup' is a completely disingenuous way of ignoring flaws in your own game, and it needs to stop because frankly, it's horseshit.

You can't look at any match you have and say that if you knew the matchup you would have won completely and unequivocally. That ignores the bad calls you made as a player and the extreme flaws in your gameplan. You're only stinting your growth as a player if you truly think matchups and prep time are the only things keeping you from winning tournaments.

And you know why people say tournaments are the only measuring stick? Because it is; it's much harder to face someone when you have the pressure of being knocked out of a tournament, in a 2/3 matchup against someone you haven't played before and have to figure them out in less than 4 games then it is to play them continuously with no stakes for hours. That's not to say that it isn't impressive that you can keep up with good players in casuals, but if you can't do it when all the stakes are on the line, who's ultimately proven himself to be the better player?

Think about what you are saying: despite having the best Shang to ever play the game right here in our state, you still couldn't get it done against WoundCowboy? Despite having almost a whole year since the last time he beat you to prep on the matchup you still lost to 16 Bit's Kitana? C'mon man, at some point the excuses gotta stop flowing and you have to look deep into your Raiden gameplan and fix the kinks in the system because they are there, and it's what's holding you back, not matchup knowledge and prep time.

This is a really good honest post

BTW Im excited to see if you use raiden at SCR cause I really dig how you use him

B W1zZ I think the main thing people want to succeed is Raiden succeed. If I had made one top 8 in 2011 w kenshi but PL came in w kenshi and had greater success then i have to ask myself what did he do that I didnt. I dont know if you have tourney nerves, or mu issues or what but you're fully capable of making top 8 but you have to be real with yourself and fix the issues. When i have an issue and i have a tourney come up i make it a my daily duty as i do breathing. But im always realistic

Either way I don't really give a shit anymore. I could go to SoCal regionals if I wanted to, but I would have to take 2 unpaid days off of work....so I'll basically be losing money just to go play a video game that I barely play anymore and get downplayed by people. Someone else can represent if they want to, I'm done for now.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Either way I don't really give a shit anymore. I could go to SoCal regionals if I wanted to, but I would have to take 2 unpaid days off of work....so I'll basically be losing money just to go play a video game that I barely play anymore and get downplayed by people. Someone else can represent if they want to, I'm done for now.

U aren't going?

 

[UsedForGlue]

I noticed you dont mention Cyrax... where do you think he stands?

I'd say 5th.

1. Kabal (No bad MU's)
2. Kung Lao (in my opinion No Bad MU's or at least 2 bad MU's MAX according to TYM)
3. Kenshi (as he has at least 4 Bad MU's) (Kabal, Reptile, Freddy, Cyrax)
4. Freddy
5. Cyrax
---

 

[GamerBlake90]

Blake? He didn't even use Raiden at the last tournament he went to.

This, I have to apologize to the Raiden community about. I do admit that my faith in my Thunder God tends to falter at times. I had the perfect opportunity to switch to him when I played Madzin at MLG (he uses Noob Saibot), but didn't do it. Then I remember what I've seen from B W1zZ playing the character, and it ignites my determination to play him again.

As of late, I've pushed aside all my pocket characters and devoted myself to Sonya and Raiden ONLY. So my Raiden's going to be getting plenty of work-outs to come, and he will shine at my next tournament.

 

[SirRaven]

This, I have to apologize to the Raiden community about. I do admit that my faith in my Thunder God tends to falter at times. I had the perfect opportunity to switch to him when I played Madzin at MLG (he uses Noob Saibot), but didn't do it. Then I remember what I've seen from B W1zZ playing the character, and it ignites my determination to play him again.

As of late, I've pushed aside all my pocket characters and devoted myself to Sonya and Raiden ONLY. So my Raiden's going to be getting plenty of work-outs to come, and he will shine at my next tournament.

I felt the exact same way. I came back to MK a couple of months ago after a long hiatus...I never did tournaments or anything because of travel and expenses, I just love the game and learning to compete at the highest level. After coming back, I started to lose faith in Raiden (who was always my main) because I saw opportunities with other characters. In fact, I had picked up Freddy and saw his zoning potential and almost entirely forgot about Raiden. I became a Freddy & Kang player.

Then I saw posts here by BWizz and 4x4 along w/ some nice casual matchups on youtube that BWizz had and it really got my spirits back into re-exploring Raiden and focusing on him as my main. I refuse to select any other character now.

 

[Chaosphere]

After leveling up a bit over the weekend, I'd say there's definitely some mind games with Raiden that aren't fully hashed out yet.

I retract my previous statements. =P

 

[DJ L Toro]

If you want i can go into the lab and find new max damage corner combos that noone will use like ive done with all my other characters (except kitana, but i will eventually).

 

[BigMilk]

If you want i can go into the lab and find new max damage corner combos that noone will use like ive done with all my other characters (except kitana, but i will eventually).

I dont think its the combos that everyone is looking for....

 

[DJ L Toro]

I dont think its the combos that everyone is looking for....

lbsh, damage is a big part of why people consider certain characters viable. Kitana and cyrax are 2 huge examples (if cyrax's nets scaled his damage so he could only get 40% with a bar do you think he'd be top half? what if kitana only got into the 30s, she'd probably be bottom 10). Increase a character's damage by 5% for bnb midscreen and 3% corner and you have at least a 2-3 spot jump on the tier list.

 

[BigMilk]

lbsh, damage is a big part of why people consider certain characters viable. Kitana and cyrax are 2 huge examples (if cyrax's nets scaled his damage so he could only get 40% with a bar do you think he'd be top half? what if kitana only got into the 30s, she'd probably be bottom 10). Increase a character's damage by 5% for bnb midscreen and 3% corner and you have at least a 2-3 spot jump on the tier list.

Not necessarily. Damage is a factor but moreso his tools, how he plays and does against other characters. Thats why people play characters like Mileena. She uses a bar and does about the same as raiden meterless. Cage Liu and Sub are also examples of this.

 

[DJ L Toro]

Not necessarily. Damage is a factor but moreso his tools, how he plays and does against other characters. Thats why people play characters like Mileena. She uses a bar and does about the same as raiden meterless. Cage Liu and Sub are also examples of this.

dude mileena's really bad though and only really has the potential to be worse. raiden at least has the potential to be good. there's also different styles of raiden that have had varying amounts of success. You cant seriously tell me that mileena woulnt be a few spots higher with 5% more damage on all of her combos

 

[4x4lo8o]

If you want i can go into the lab and find new max damage corner combos that noone will use like ive done with all my other characters (except kitana, but i will eventually).

If you found higher damage combos than the current ones I think that'd be awesome and I'd try them out, but I don't have super high hopes for that happening. I think damage wise in the corner he already does pretty well and he's probably been thoroughly explored and tapped out. Midscreen I thinks there's more room for new discoveries, but I think any extra damage that gets squeezed out is going to be high execution and most new stuff midscreen is going to be more along the lines of set ups or meter building options and maybe slightly easier combos that do the same max damage.

 

[DJ L Toro]

If you found higher damage combos than the current ones I think that'd be awesome and I'd try them out, but I don't have super high hopes for that happening. I think damage wise in the corner he already does pretty well and he's probably been thoroughly explored and tapped out. Midscreen I thinks there's more room for new discoveries, but I think any extra damage that gets squeezed out is going to be high execution and most new stuff midscreen is going to be more along the lines of set ups or meter building options and maybe slightly easier combos that do the same max damage.

so if i find a meterless combo that does 50% midscreen but has 2 just frame inputs at different points in the combo you wont use it?

Edit: also you're telling me it wont change the perception of raiden as a character?

 

[BigMilk]

dude mileena's really bad though and only really has the potential to be worse. raiden at least has the potential to be good. there's also different styles of raiden that have had varying amounts of success. You cant seriously tell me that mileena woulnt be a few spots higher with 5% more damage on all of her combos

That exactly my point. People still play her despite her weakpoints. If she did more damage it doesn't change the character. The kommunity doesn't need Raiden higher on three tier list, they need to understand him better...

 

[4x4lo8o]

so if i find a meterless combo that does 50% midscreen but has 2 just frame inputs at different points in the combo you wont use it?

Edit: also you're telling me it wont change the perception of raiden as a character?

No, I didn't say either of those things. I'm not sure if I could use a combo with two just frames(I already get too jittery and can't land easy combos in matches that count) and I have no idea what it would do to the perception of Raiden as character, but I would love it if you found that and would work be super hype to work with it. I just don't think higher bnb combo damage is in Raiden's future. He has places to grow, but I personally would surprised if it was there

Squeezing the max possible damage out of every combo and punish is one of the things B Wizz was best at and did pretty thoroughly. On top of that Raiden doesn't of ways to use his specials or his meter to extend combos, so unless you found something really revolutionary I have a hard time seeing his damage going up. There's probably a place or two where you can squeeze out an extra percent or two, but it'd probably be situational and high execution enough that it wouldn't be game changing for Raiden players. I can already thing situations where combos exist, and are reasonably well known, that are higher damaging than what any Raiden player I know of is using because the execution isn't worth it

 

[B W1zZ]

I would say as far as exploration is concerned people should set their sights on starchargers oki tech. I was not aware that normals could be cancelled off invincibility frames of wakeup attacks so in essence this adds more options to all of Raiden's matchups. Also F2 isn't the only option for cancelling off their wakeup invulnerability...using D1/D3 as a cancel off their invulnerability can be better against say jax's dash punch than F2. This is probably one of the only things I haven't personally fleshed out completely.

 

[Chaosphere]

I would say as far as exploration is concerned people should set their sights on starchargers oki tech. I was not aware that normals could be cancelled off invincibility frames of wakeup attacks so in essence this adds more options to all of Raiden's matchups. Also F2 isn't the only option for cancelling off their wakeup invulnerability...using D1/D3 as a cancel off their invulnerability can be better against say jax's dash punch than F2. This is probably one of the only things I haven't personally fleshed out completely.

Agreed. The f2 oki tech is fucking awesome. I used it all weekend and it worked so many times. It opens up Raiden's game so much. Starcharger should win a tech of the year award.

I think there's some really good shit with doing moves that put you at negative but have decent pushback. Most people are going to try and punish moves they know are negative such as lightning ball... but if they block it from a slight distance, you have enough time to tele out and punish. This can literally make people respect shitty moves lol.

Also, f3. Has great range and is 0 on block. If their back is in the corner and you hit them with f3 when they go to jump, you can d1~shocker into a combo ender. There's a couple things you can do with this move and spacing. If they block it... you recover almost like a d1 so you can go into another string immediately, or you can just sit there and wait for them to hit a button and tele. If you whiff it RIGHT in front of their face... you still recover pretty much instantly and they are most likely going to try and whiff punish. You can tele immediately after the whiff. All of these exact same rules apply to f4 too. The problem is that both f4 and f3 have long startup so you better choose to do it at the right time.

Also, d4~tele on hit gives you +3 advantage, giving you a 3 frame d1, 4 frame d3, 9 frame f2, 9 frame 3, and 6 frame 1. If you think they will try and punish you after seeing the teleport, you can ex-shocker their attack. I'm going to play with this more. I've been doing d4~tele after jip to give me advantage. Once they catch on to this, this sets up f4 after jip which grants you a 35% combo. Use this. Or don't.

I know some of this stuff has been mentioned before, but I'm mentioning it again.

 

[Chaosphere]

We need a raiden in top 8 between now and evo

Working on it lul

 

[Chaosphere]

At a Major?

Dude it's Raiden...

How dare you, Claude. How dare you.

 

[TotteryManx]

I think he is explored, but his tools haven't been placed in the right hands. It takes strong fg fundamentals to be good with him. He has the tools, but most players I've seen become impatient during a match or drop crucial combos. I know he is a top 10 character, but I'm afraid the game may not survive long enough for others to see.

 

[Chaosphere]

I think he is explored, but his tools haven't been placed in the right hands. It takes strong fg fundamentals to be good with him. He has the tools, but most players I've seen become impatient during a match or drop crucial combos. I know he is a top 10 character, but I'm afraid the game may not survive long enough for others to see.

Then do something about it. UFGT and EVO

He's only explored by Raiden players. So pretty much me, bwizz, and 4x4. I heard gamerblake has a good Raiden too. But outside of us, I feel like a lot of people's minds will be blown at UFGT and EVO. And there's no reason mk should die. If people can't handle playing two games then we have some growing up to do as a community, IMO.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Then do something about it. UFGT and EVO

He's only explored by Raiden players. So pretty much me, bwizz, and 4x4. I heard gamerblake has a good Raiden too. But outside of us, I feel like a lot of people's minds will be blown at UFGT and EVO. And there's no reason mk should die. If people can't handle playing two games then we have some growing up to do as a community, IMO.

UFG and myself played him ALOT for a couple of months before EVO.
And when we play a character we find shit. Raiden just dont have anything good.

The teleport may be considered a saving grace by some, but I consider it a weakness. Any good player will always be ready to option select the teleport.

 

[Chaosphere]

UFG and myself played him ALOT for a couple of months before EVO.
And when we play a character we find shit. Raiden just dont have anything good.

The teleport may be considered a saving grace by some, but I consider it a weakness. Any good player will always be ready to option select the teleport.

What do you think is Raiden's best "shit" that isn't worthy of being good? Not a sarcastic question. Looking for an honest answer. =P

There's no such thing as an option select for the teleport. If you're talking cage's f3/b3 stuff, that argument has been dissolved like 100 times.