Breakthrough - Cyber Sub-Zero CSZ Nerfs

[Reauxbot]

Could it be that NRS is showing they listen to the fans but maybe they didn't fully think these nerfs through? With people like BIT and PPJ on staff, I don't understand how this is approved or accepted. Maybe they put it out as a test and will adjust it in a hot fix (crossing my fingers).

Sure, they took out the Cyrax B2 HTB reset (which I never used) that people were mainly complaining about but damage nerf was uncalled for. And not being able to net after bomb changes everything about Cyrax.

Reo is partly responsible for bringing the nerf attention to CSZ with the thread he made. I felt it was too early for that.

I will play the bots regardless. I've mained them in MK9 and well continue in MKX.

I agree with the REO thing a little. He opens up tech with every character though. Ketchup did as well with Sektor. Both got their setups hit. At the same time how could anyone not high level or tech monsters know about any setups or anything. If it wasn't for these forums I wouldn't know any tech or much.
It's a 50/50

 

[marietta1200]

Meanwhile here are the inputs for a 31% midscreen bnb, unenhanced/PnG'd, for Ruthless FT: f2, f3, 4xxdbf1

I get tired just thinking about typing out CSZ's inputs for anything over about 20%.

PS: day one F/T pretty fun in the opposite way CSZ was.

 

[SaltShaker]

Long but I had to get this out. Read if you care enough about my opinion.




After having a day to really think about it, letting it sit, trying to see the bright side, nothing has changed. In the past, I was highly upset when my mains Cyber Kano and Jacqui got nerfs (oh yea real tier whoring there) but this is different. Different because it's been a year and an understanding of the game should be had by now. An understanding of how good the top characters are. An understanding what other characters need to compete with them. That understanding was lost with these nerfs.

I try to be reasonable, always, because at the end of the day I get that decisions are made even if I don't agree. Maybe someone said, "wow, this CSZ is too strong". I don't agree in comparison to the cast but fine. The 1112 nerfs and F2 happened. Fine. Nerf DiveKick to be unsafe more consistently? Great change. But then what? Make his HTBs less consistent in one month when characters in the roster have them for a year? Nerf his already pathetic damage? Make punishing certain specials impossible without spending a bar since S1 can whiff over the head of some and B3/F4 into iceball is inconsistent? Make one of his best strings in F13 completely useless in this variation? DK and drone summon in combos cost you 2-4% damage? Pokes and mids are still bottom barrel trash? No buffs to compensate all that is lost? Seriously? Is this it? Is this the vision for this character?


This one bothers me more than any Nerf has. DLC like Alien and LF barely got touched in comparison to CSZ. They'll be allowed to run rampant in many tourneys to come, while I will bet my hard earned money that NO top or even semi high level player will use CSZ, ever. Why? Because there's no reason to. For example.

If I want to maximize my chance of winning, why would I play CSZ in his current form over A-List, SQ D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, or Mileena? Why? Why would I even consider it? Take a look at the viable characters and tell me which ones you say "yea CSZ has the advantage in that MU right now". How many? Any at all? Maybe a couple if you stretch it?Who is going to play a high execution minimal reward character when trying to win? No one, which is what we will see going forward.


This is why other than the diehard CSZ fans I promise you no one will touch this character. I was so hype for a big tourney this Sat, now I feel like not even showing up, or just sitting out. Why? To lose to Cutt Kano, Kotal, moon buffed Jason, still super strong Demo, and godlike Takeda that my main competition will be using? With this watered down shell of a character? I don't think I have the energy to switch characters again so I might just attend this tourney, lose, and call it a game.


I dunno. This one hurt the most. Kinda killed my interest at the moment in the game because I don't want to switch characters again. CSZ was THEE character for me, super hype for him and he was good while being fair, but now he's no different than any other useless variation that has a ton of bad MUs and barely any good ones, if any. While those other Top Tier chars get a pat on the back for being so strong. This isn't tweaking like we've seen done before. This is Injustice Scorpion levels of bad nerfing to a character that wasn't even on that level. This is why when people were so happy about prolonged support I was one of the few who didn't like the idea. I'd rather a few patches and then leaving patching only for glitches, not balancing. You're always having to readjust and relearn the game when that shouldn't be the case. Especially a year later.


Maybe I'll get over it with time, or find the energy to practice a new character eventually. Maybe I'll try a different fighting game. I dunno. But as of now I'm done with the character and the game. Hope you guys that stay with the character find some stuff to help you stay alive against this empowered roster. CSZ community was/is for sure the best one I'd been a part of, similar to the early on Kano community.

 

[FrostiBarrel]

Why are people acting like B2 isn't a thing anymore for csz

 

[Reauxbot]

Long but I had to get this out. Read if you care enough about my opinion.




After having a day to really think about it, letting it sit, trying to see the bright side, nothing has changed. In the past, I was highly upset when my mains Cyber Kano and Jacqui got nerfs (oh yea real tier whoring there) but this is different. Different because it's been a year and an understanding of the game should be had by now. An understanding of how good the top characters are. An understanding what other characters need to compete with them. That understanding was lost with these nerfs.

I try to be reasonable, always, because at the end of the day I get that decisions are made even if I don't agree. Maybe someone said, "wow, this CSZ is too strong". I don't agree in comparison to the cast but fine. The 1112 nerfs and F2 happened. Fine. Nerf DiveKick to be unsafe more consistently? Great change. But then what? Make his HTBs less consistent in one month when characters in the roster have them for a year? Nerf his already pathetic damage? Make punishing certain specials impossible without spending a bar since S1 can whiff over the head of some and B3/F4 into iceball is inconsistent? Make one of his best strings in F13 completely useless in this variation? DK and drone summon in combos cost you 2-4% damage? Pokes and mids are still bottom barrel trash? No buffs to compensate all that is lost? Seriously? Is this it? Is this the vision for this character?


This one bothers me more than any Nerf has. DLC like Alien and LF barely got touched in comparison to CSZ. They'll be allowed to run rampant in many tourneys to come, while I will bet my hard earned money that NO top or even semi high level player will use CSZ, ever. Why? Because there's no reason to. For example.

If I want to maximize my chance of winning, why would I play CSZ in his current form over A-List, SQ D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, or Mileena? Why? Why would I even consider it? Take a look at the viable characters and tell me which ones you say "yea CSZ has the advantage in that MU right now". How many? Any at all? Maybe a couple if you stretch it?Who is going to play a high execution minimal reward character when trying to win? No one, which is what we will see going forward.


This is why other than the diehard CSZ fans I promise you no one will touch this character. I was so hype for a big tourney this Sat, now I feel like not even showing up, or just sitting out. Why? To lose to Cutt Kano, Kotal, moon buffed Jason, still super strong Demo, and godlike Takeda that my main competition will be using? With this watered down shell of a character? I don't think I have the energy to switch characters again so I might just attend this tourney, lose, and call it a game.


I dunno. This one hurt the most. Kinda killed my interest at the moment in the game because I don't want to switch characters again. CSZ was THEE character for me, super hype for him and he was good while being fair, but now he's no different than any other useless variation that has a ton of bad MUs and barely any good ones, if any. While those other Top Tier chars get a pat on the back for being so strong. This isn't tweaking like we've seen done before. This is Injustice Scorpion levels of bad nerfing to a character that wasn't even on that level. This is why when people were so happy about prolonged support I was one of the few who didn't like the idea. I'd rather a few patches and then leaving patching only for glitches, not balancing. You're always having to readjust and relearn the game when that shouldn't be the case. Especially a year later.


Maybe I'll get over it with time, or find the energy to practice a new character eventually. Maybe I'll try a different fighting game. I dunno. But as of now I'm done with the character and the game. Hope you guys that stay with the character find some stuff to help you stay alive against this empowered roster. CSZ community was/is for sure the best one I'd been a part of, similar to the early on Kano community.

Youve played the game for a year and helped the community for who knows how long. Every character in some game gets whacked hard. It's unfortunate it was yours. Why give up on a game you've put so much work and effort into because you had the unfortunate result of a character. It could've happened to any character, yours was just the unfortunate. You said this was your character but who did you play before? Don't give up man.

 

[14K]

Youve played the game for a year and helped the community for who knows how long. Every character in some game gets whacked hard. It's unfortunate it was yours. Why give up on a game you've put so much work and effort into because you had the unfortunate result of a character. It could've happened to any character, yours was just the unfortunate. You said this was your character but who did you play before? Don't give up man.

Ill explain exacly why, because im pretty sure @SaltShaker feels like i feel right now... I dont want to play this game atm. i just Dont, i could easily go back to Ermac Which is a character i really like, but Cyber Sub jus thad that flare of, hard enouth to be rewarding to master, just good enouth to be upper mid tier without being broken... pre patch CZ0 fit that special place of being just the right character with the right amount o joy and fun along with high execution and the pleasure of being flashy... Take all that away and what you have left is the joyless experience, spent money, no fun, and the heartache of having a perfecly fine character destroyed for the consulation of whining little scumbags that cant be bothered to learn the MU... Now what bothers me the most like it was mentioned and like i mentioned is how come more than a hand full of ppl if not more, looked at this changes and said this was perfectly fine and an acceptable array of nerfs...

I cannot Fathom how you have PPJ or 16 Bit agree with this, and then the designers agree with this ( this guys have little option they have to do what their told ) and then Paulo agree with this and all this ppl say this is perfectly fine... i seriously cannot imagine the meeting where this changes where discussed... because i can only imagine a bunch of heavely druged ppl talking out of their ass.. This shows how little they really know about their own game... NRS cannot be allow to patch their own games they just cant...

 

[DDutchguy]

Alright so I've been playing around with Cyber Sub for real. I take back a lot of things that I said in this thread because man, Cyber Sub is pretty bad. His damage is really low, his lack of mids is far more of an issue than I ever thought it would be and he is generally very hard to play. Often times I'm just like "what do I do?"

Like 12 hours ago I would be defending Cyber Sub and saying he was still quite good but oh man... These nerfs hit WAY harder in real games than they did on the patch notes sheet.

 

[Arkane Slim]

- Ice ball has more start up frames. He can no longer do old combos he used to be able to or abuse the ice ball in neutral.

- Dive kicks are more negative on block now. No more 100% safe dive kicks regardless of spacing.

Welp.... that's all i need to hear

*Proceeds to play Ranked matches*

 

[_xFriction]

guess i'll try again

@16 Bit
@GGA pimpimjim
@colt

can anyone please explain the reasoning behind these nerfs?

 

[Repent]

Long but I had to get this out. Read if you care enough about my opinion.




After having a day to really think about it, letting it sit, trying to see the bright side, nothing has changed. In the past, I was highly upset when my mains Cyber Kano and Jacqui got nerfs (oh yea real tier whoring there) but this is different. Different because it's been a year and an understanding of the game should be had by now. An understanding of how good the top characters are. An understanding what other characters need to compete with them. That understanding was lost with these nerfs.

I try to be reasonable, always, because at the end of the day I get that decisions are made even if I don't agree. Maybe someone said, "wow, this CSZ is too strong". I don't agree in comparison to the cast but fine. The 1112 nerfs and F2 happened. Fine. Nerf DiveKick to be unsafe more consistently? Great change. But then what? Make his HTBs less consistent in one month when characters in the roster have them for a year? Nerf his already pathetic damage? Make punishing certain specials impossible without spending a bar since S1 can whiff over the head of some and B3/F4 into iceball is inconsistent? Make one of his best strings in F13 completely useless in this variation? DK and drone summon in combos cost you 2-4% damage? Pokes and mids are still bottom barrel trash? No buffs to compensate all that is lost? Seriously? Is this it? Is this the vision for this character?


This one bothers me more than any Nerf has. DLC like Alien and LF barely got touched in comparison to CSZ. They'll be allowed to run rampant in many tourneys to come, while I will bet my hard earned money that NO top or even semi high level player will use CSZ, ever. Why? Because there's no reason to. For example.

If I want to maximize my chance of winning, why would I play CSZ in his current form over A-List, SQ D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, or Mileena? Why? Why would I even consider it? Take a look at the viable characters and tell me which ones you say "yea CSZ has the advantage in that MU right now". How many? Any at all? Maybe a couple if you stretch it?Who is going to play a high execution minimal reward character when trying to win? No one, which is what we will see going forward.


This is why other than the diehard CSZ fans I promise you no one will touch this character. I was so hype for a big tourney this Sat, now I feel like not even showing up, or just sitting out. Why? To lose to Cutt Kano, Kotal, moon buffed Jason, still super strong Demo, and godlike Takeda that my main competition will be using? With this watered down shell of a character? I don't think I have the energy to switch characters again so I might just attend this tourney, lose, and call it a game.


I dunno. This one hurt the most. Kinda killed my interest at the moment in the game because I don't want to switch characters again. CSZ was THEE character for me, super hype for him and he was good while being fair, but now he's no different than any other useless variation that has a ton of bad MUs and barely any good ones, if any. While those other Top Tier chars get a pat on the back for being so strong. This isn't tweaking like we've seen done before. This is Injustice Scorpion levels of bad nerfing to a character that wasn't even on that level. This is why when people were so happy about prolonged support I was one of the few who didn't like the idea. I'd rather a few patches and then leaving patching only for glitches, not balancing. You're always having to readjust and relearn the game when that shouldn't be the case. Especially a year later.


Maybe I'll get over it with time, or find the energy to practice a new character eventually. Maybe I'll try a different fighting game. I dunno. But as of now I'm done with the character and the game. Hope you guys that stay with the character find some stuff to help you stay alive against this empowered roster. CSZ community was/is for sure the best one I'd been a part of, similar to the early on Kano community.

Be a man, use the character you like and outplay your opponent, despite any problems with the character. Problems perceived or not.
Find ways to win, instead of crying about a few, slight fundamental changes made to the character. Excuses for quitting, or not playing because your character changes, or gets changes you don't like is not only wack, but just plain weak. Don't be weak. Adapt, and do something. Or don't. But for christ's sakes... Stop being emo. It's not about *youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*.

I do respect your passion for the game, which is where all this butthurt shit comes from. But c'mon. It's a lot cooler to find ways to win, which DO exist, no matter what you may think, or what is on paper, instead of instantly saying OMG OMG BROKE DEAD CHARACTER UNPLAYABLE, crying, and making 9-10 posts/threads about you quitting. Calling for the firing of people, etc.

 

[14K]

Be a man, use the character you like and outplay your opponent, despite any problems with the character. Problems perceived or not.
Find ways to win, instead of crying about a few, slight fundamental changes made to the character. Excuses for quitting, or not playing because your character changes, or gets changes you don't like is not only wack, but just plain weak. Don't be weak. Adapt, and do something. Or don't. But for christ's sakes... Stop being emo. It's not about *youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*.

I do respect your passion for the game, which is where all this butthurt shit comes from. But c'mon. It's a lot cooler to find ways to win, which DO exist, no matter what you may think, or what is on paper, instead of instantly saying OMG OMG BROKE DEAD CHARACTER UNPLAYABLE, crying, and making 9-10 posts/threads about you quitting. Calling for the firing of people, etc.

You complitely missed the point... moving on

 

[SaltShaker]

Be a man, use the character you like and outplay your opponent, despite any problems with the character. Problems perceived or not.
Find ways to win, instead of crying about a few, slight fundamental changes made to the character. Excuses for quitting, or not playing because your character changes, or gets changes you don't like is not only wack, but just plain weak. Don't be weak. Adapt, and do something. Or don't. But for christ's sakes... Stop being emo. It's not about *youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*.

I do respect your passion for the game, which is where all this butthurt shit comes from. But c'mon. It's a lot cooler to find ways to win, which DO exist, no matter what you may think, or what is on paper, instead of instantly saying OMG OMG BROKE DEAD CHARACTER UNPLAYABLE, crying, and making 9-10 posts/threads about you quitting. Calling for the firing of people, etc.

I started the post with "if you care enough about my opinion". For those who don't they should have skipped the post after that second sentence.

But in all honesty I hear ya, I'm just exhausted with constant changes man. It may sound like "why is this guy complaining about a character again", which I'm sure is what it looks like to some, but I can't stress how much it sucks for other Character communities to have no idea what it feels like because they get to play a strong character for most of a year, while things like this happen to other characters for unknown reasons in other communities. I've just been unlucky enough to pick the ones that get nerfed, perceived high or even low tier. Hell I found ways to win with Jacqui against respectable players in long sets and at DTN I played well against a couple of top players in sets, so there's always that, a sign that I can win with "supposed" mediocre characters. I just think the latest round of nerfs was a huge morale killer for me. Feels right back to uphill battles. CSZ feels like a less fun version of himself, let alone the nerfs. Maybe the timing right before a tourney in 3 days, I dunno.


All in all, I don't really plan on talking about it anymore. You're right about that. I've kinda let it "out" so to speak so I'll probably wallow in the wind for a while. Hopefully I'll get over it sooner than later but I rather not continuously go on about it because it isn't changing anything. Or maybe I'll just play Takeda lol. I don't know, but I'll figure something out. I wouldn't have even replied to this thread again but you made good enough points to the other side of the argument that I figured I should answer.

 

[RiBBz22]

Be a man, use the character you like and outplay your opponent, despite any problems with the character. Problems perceived or not.
Find ways to win, instead of crying about a few, slight fundamental changes made to the character. Excuses for quitting, or not playing because your character changes, or gets changes you don't like is not only wack, but just plain weak. Don't be weak. Adapt, and do something. Or don't. But for christ's sakes... Stop being emo. It's not about *youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*.

I do respect your passion for the game, which is where all this butthurt shit comes from. But c'mon. It's a lot cooler to find ways to win, which DO exist, no matter what you may think, or what is on paper, instead of instantly saying OMG OMG BROKE DEAD CHARACTER UNPLAYABLE, crying, and making 9-10 posts/threads about you quitting. Calling for the firing of people, etc.

Can you tell me how you would adapt with a character if they were removed from the select screen?

 

[Repent]

I started the post with "if you care enough about my opinion". For those who don't they should have skipped the post after that second sentence.

But in all honesty I hear ya, I'm just exhausted with constant changes man. It may sound like "why is this guy complaining about a character again", which I'm sure is what it looks like to some, but I can't stress how much it sucks for other Character communities to have no idea what it feels like because they get to play a strong character for most of a year, while things like this happen to other characters for unknown reasons in other communities. I've just been unlucky enough to pick the ones that get nerfed, perceived high or even low tier. Hell I found ways to win with Jacqui against respectable players in long sets and at DTN I played well against a couple of top players in sets, so there's always that, a sign that I can win with "supposed" mediocre characters. I just think the latest round of nerfs was a huge morale killer for me. Feels right back to uphill battles. CSZ feels like a less fun version of himself, let alone the nerfs. Maybe the timing right before a tourney in 3 days, I dunno.


All in all, I don't really plan on talking about it anymore. You're right about that. I've kinda let it "out" so to speak so I'll probably wallow in the wind for a while. Hopefully I'll get over it sooner than later but I rather not continuously go on about it because it isn't changing anything. Or maybe I'll just play Takeda lol. I don't know, but I'll figure something out. I wouldn't have even replied to this thread again but you made good enough points to the other side of the argument that I figured I should answer.

Right on. Appreciate the time taken to do so. I can only encourage people to press on, have fun where it can be had. Or don't.
I will not be replying further, nor writing anything non-related to csz nerfs. Just replied out of courtesy, in turn.
Your gripes come from a passion for the game, and, regardless of my opinions of those, I cannot fault a person for these types of consequences had because of loving the game.

I will just say this to all CSZ Players, and advocates.
He still has tools, he is still viable, and he can win.
(Like just about every character in the game.)

Bang, Bang.

 

[The Abbot]

Besides J360, why haven't I seen any comments from tournament players about these nerfs.
Reo simply stated what the nerfs were but didn't not comment on it.

Seems weird to me.

 

[Pnut]

Long but I had to get this out. Read if you care enough about my opinion.




After having a day to really think about it, letting it sit, trying to see the bright side, nothing has changed. In the past, I was highly upset when my mains Cyber Kano and Jacqui got nerfs (oh yea real tier whoring there) but this is different. Different because it's been a year and an understanding of the game should be had by now. An understanding of how good the top characters are. An understanding what other characters need to compete with them. That understanding was lost with these nerfs.

I try to be reasonable, always, because at the end of the day I get that decisions are made even if I don't agree. Maybe someone said, "wow, this CSZ is too strong". I don't agree in comparison to the cast but fine. The 1112 nerfs and F2 happened. Fine. Nerf DiveKick to be unsafe more consistently? Great change. But then what? Make his HTBs less consistent in one month when characters in the roster have them for a year? Nerf his already pathetic damage? Make punishing certain specials impossible without spending a bar since S1 can whiff over the head of some and B3/F4 into iceball is inconsistent? Make one of his best strings in F13 completely useless in this variation? DK and drone summon in combos cost you 2-4% damage? Pokes and mids are still bottom barrel trash? No buffs to compensate all that is lost? Seriously? Is this it? Is this the vision for this character?


This one bothers me more than any Nerf has. DLC like Alien and LF barely got touched in comparison to CSZ. They'll be allowed to run rampant in many tourneys to come, while I will bet my hard earned money that NO top or even semi high level player will use CSZ, ever. Why? Because there's no reason to. For example.

If I want to maximize my chance of winning, why would I play CSZ in his current form over A-List, SQ D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, or Mileena? Why? Why would I even consider it? Take a look at the viable characters and tell me which ones you say "yea CSZ has the advantage in that MU right now". How many? Any at all? Maybe a couple if you stretch it?Who is going to play a high execution minimal reward character when trying to win? No one, which is what we will see going forward.


This is why other than the diehard CSZ fans I promise you no one will touch this character. I was so hype for a big tourney this Sat, now I feel like not even showing up, or just sitting out. Why? To lose to Cutt Kano, Kotal, moon buffed Jason, still super strong Demo, and godlike Takeda that my main competition will be using? With this watered down shell of a character? I don't think I have the energy to switch characters again so I might just attend this tourney, lose, and call it a game.


I dunno. This one hurt the most. Kinda killed my interest at the moment in the game because I don't want to switch characters again. CSZ was THEE character for me, super hype for him and he was good while being fair, but now he's no different than any other useless variation that has a ton of bad MUs and barely any good ones, if any. While those other Top Tier chars get a pat on the back for being so strong. This isn't tweaking like we've seen done before. This is Injustice Scorpion levels of bad nerfing to a character that wasn't even on that level. This is why when people were so happy about prolonged support I was one of the few who didn't like the idea. I'd rather a few patches and then leaving patching only for glitches, not balancing. You're always having to readjust and relearn the game when that shouldn't be the case. Especially a year later.


Maybe I'll get over it with time, or find the energy to practice a new character eventually. Maybe I'll try a different fighting game. I dunno. But as of now I'm done with the character and the game. Hope you guys that stay with the character find some stuff to help you stay alive against this empowered roster. CSZ community was/is for sure the best one I'd been a part of, similar to the early on Kano community.

I thought you were quitting yesterday?

 

[_xFriction]

Besides J360, why haven't I seen any comments from tournament players about these nerfs.
Reo simply stated what the nerfs were but didn't not comment on it.

Seems weird to me.

not everyone is well-known breh

 

[ninjutsubreh]

I thought you were quitting yesterday?

16 bit did say he will be back the day after lol

 

[SaltShaker]

I thought you were quitting yesterday?

Trying to find stuff to make it work, hoping I overreacted, but to no avail atm to say the least. You should put down Kotal and help out.

 

[Pnut]

Trying to find stuff to make it work, hoping I overreacted, but to no avail atm to say the least. You should put down Kotal and help out.

I understand, Kotal is the struggle too.

 

[StiggyWiggs]

Long but I had to get this out. Read if you care enough about my opinion.




After having a day to really think about it, letting it sit, trying to see the bright side, nothing has changed. In the past, I was highly upset when my mains Cyber Kano and Jacqui got nerfs (oh yea real tier whoring there) but this is different. Different because it's been a year and an understanding of the game should be had by now. An understanding of how good the top characters are. An understanding what other characters need to compete with them. That understanding was lost with these nerfs.

I try to be reasonable, always, because at the end of the day I get that decisions are made even if I don't agree. Maybe someone said, "wow, this CSZ is too strong". I don't agree in comparison to the cast but fine. The 1112 nerfs and F2 happened. Fine. Nerf DiveKick to be unsafe more consistently? Great change. But then what? Make his HTBs less consistent in one month when characters in the roster have them for a year? Nerf his already pathetic damage? Make punishing certain specials impossible without spending a bar since S1 can whiff over the head of some and B3/F4 into iceball is inconsistent? Make one of his best strings in F13 completely useless in this variation? DK and drone summon in combos cost you 2-4% damage? Pokes and mids are still bottom barrel trash? No buffs to compensate all that is lost? Seriously? Is this it? Is this the vision for this character?


This one bothers me more than any Nerf has. DLC like Alien and LF barely got touched in comparison to CSZ. They'll be allowed to run rampant in many tourneys to come, while I will bet my hard earned money that NO top or even semi high level player will use CSZ, ever. Why? Because there's no reason to. For example.

If I want to maximize my chance of winning, why would I play CSZ in his current form over A-List, SQ D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, or Mileena? Why? Why would I even consider it? Take a look at the viable characters and tell me which ones you say "yea CSZ has the advantage in that MU right now". How many? Any at all? Maybe a couple if you stretch it?Who is going to play a high execution minimal reward character when trying to win? No one, which is what we will see going forward.


This is why other than the diehard CSZ fans I promise you no one will touch this character. I was so hype for a big tourney this Sat, now I feel like not even showing up, or just sitting out. Why? To lose to Cutt Kano, Kotal, moon buffed Jason, still super strong Demo, and godlike Takeda that my main competition will be using? With this watered down shell of a character? I don't think I have the energy to switch characters again so I might just attend this tourney, lose, and call it a game.


I dunno. This one hurt the most. Kinda killed my interest at the moment in the game because I don't want to switch characters again. CSZ was THEE character for me, super hype for him and he was good while being fair, but now he's no different than any other useless variation that has a ton of bad MUs and barely any good ones, if any. While those other Top Tier chars get a pat on the back for being so strong. This isn't tweaking like we've seen done before. This is Injustice Scorpion levels of bad nerfing to a character that wasn't even on that level. This is why when people were so happy about prolonged support I was one of the few who didn't like the idea. I'd rather a few patches and then leaving patching only for glitches, not balancing. You're always having to readjust and relearn the game when that shouldn't be the case. Especially a year later.


Maybe I'll get over it with time, or find the energy to practice a new character eventually. Maybe I'll try a different fighting game. I dunno. But as of now I'm done with the character and the game. Hope you guys that stay with the character find some stuff to help you stay alive against this empowered roster. CSZ community was/is for sure the best one I'd been a part of, similar to the early on Kano community.

I didn't even think about it until you said it by this is almost exactly like the injustice scorpion scare. The only difference is there were quite a few scorps in top 8 at CEO meanwhile there were like 3 or 4 triborgs total at final round. I don't play csz but I was playing cyrax who got hit just as hard and it's frustrating as all hell because idk about you but I'm kinda tired of playing all my other characters and cyrax was just a big breath of fresh air and he was fun as shit to play. What I don't get, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the borgs were even top 5. They all kinda have a weak neutral and terrible pokes imo. I'm with you in that I'm just not feeling playing this game much anymore after this last patch.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

did u play mk9? nrs tried to fix "the leaky boat" that was mk9 cyrax good few times he was still left broke.
its been said multi times that xl was the last big patch besides some little things here and there.
so there trying to "fix" triborg in one shot so there efforts can be put elsewhere aka better safe than sorry way of thinking.

that's a terrible way of thinking they should just support their damn game for a bit longer than 3 weeks after the last batch of characters which is just truly taking the cash and running, or if they can't do that they should just employ someone who actually does their job and takes the time out to understand what characters need before making atrociously poor balance decisions time and time again

Oh man, this x100000

I love how these people think that NRS only nerfs the characters that they are using. No, NRS nerfs broken characters and you must be always choosing broken characters if they keep nerfing your character.







Except Bo Rai Cho, poor Bo

CSZ was absolutely not broken and if you think I was I put it forward for you to explain why

Hat Trick was undeniably not broken but he was nerfed anyway as well

Tremor wasn't broken but they just nerfed him again as well




gotta say I have to disagree here

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Let me be clear: I think it's a raw deal. I really do. I had no serious bitchings in putting up with CSZ other than the HTB's, no more so than any other set of over the top shenanigans that have come and gone through the game's life. I just mean that NRS has a bad habit of taking toning up and toning down characters way too far when they're the subject of most of the collective attention. I do concede there's a big difference between leveling the playing field and jumping the gun...case in point, I'm still wondering why Tremor had to be made completely mediocre.

He had the fairest "HTB" ever so much that it doesn't even fit the description compared to what it usually describes. Quan's and Cyrax's you were FORCED to block and try make a 1 frame block link, and it was also a 50/50 which came first. Cyber Subs went the same way everytime, and if Cyber Sub timed his to be as hard to block as possible then you could just wake up jab right out of it, if he went for it fast enough to stuff wake ups then it was no longer even close to a 1f block link. Regardless, both options were armorable, and both options were beatable by delayed wake up which made the block link not even a hard one. He doesn't even have it anymore but Quan still has his everytime he wants to spend the same 1 bar that we need to use just to COMBO in the first place

You know what I'm glad they nerfed his damage, 30% meterless was too much. He really needed to be on Bone Shaper/Cybernetic's level of meterless damage. Thank god they nerfed this absolutely broken variation. His "hard-to-blockables" that you can easily block low low overhead low every time against are really all he needs right? Noone will ever block them surely. I mean it's only fair that he has to spend meter to combo from one of his fastest decent range starters in F13 now, thank you Netherrealm for delivering this amazing, well-thought out patch unto us.

Well, he doesn't even have his HTB set-ups anymore as no matter what your set-up, wake up jab goes into full combo punish from the entire cast now

Reo is partly responsible for bringing the nerf attention to CSZ with the thread he made. I felt it was too early for that.

now THAT is bullshit, REO is in no way responsible for this he was absolutely correct about CSZ before the initial patch, he really was way too strong and needed the changes that he got in the first patch and possibly some of the ones in the second. Just because he accurately pointed that out doesn't mean he is to blame for Paulo being insanely bad at MKX and not understanding how to balance a character, CSZ did need balancing, we need MORE of what REO does

Long but I had to get this out. Read if you care enough about my opinion.




After having a day to really think about it, letting it sit, trying to see the bright side, nothing has changed. In the past, I was highly upset when my mains Cyber Kano and Jacqui got nerfs (oh yea real tier whoring there) but this is different. Different because it's been a year and an understanding of the game should be had by now. An understanding of how good the top characters are. An understanding what other characters need to compete with them. That understanding was lost with these nerfs.

I try to be reasonable, always, because at the end of the day I get that decisions are made even if I don't agree. Maybe someone said, "wow, this CSZ is too strong". I don't agree in comparison to the cast but fine. The 1112 nerfs and F2 happened. Fine. Nerf DiveKick to be unsafe more consistently? Great change. But then what? Make his HTBs less consistent in one month when characters in the roster have them for a year? Nerf his already pathetic damage? Make punishing certain specials impossible without spending a bar since S1 can whiff over the head of some and B3/F4 into iceball is inconsistent? Make one of his best strings in F13 completely useless in this variation? DK and drone summon in combos cost you 2-4% damage? Pokes and mids are still bottom barrel trash? No buffs to compensate all that is lost? Seriously? Is this it? Is this the vision for this character?


This one bothers me more than any Nerf has. DLC like Alien and LF barely got touched in comparison to CSZ. They'll be allowed to run rampant in many tourneys to come, while I will bet my hard earned money that NO top or even semi high level player will use CSZ, ever. Why? Because there's no reason to. For example.

If I want to maximize my chance of winning, why would I play CSZ in his current form over A-List, SQ D'Vorah, Alien, Takeda, or Mileena? Why? Why would I even consider it? Take a look at the viable characters and tell me which ones you say "yea CSZ has the advantage in that MU right now". How many? Any at all? Maybe a couple if you stretch it?Who is going to play a high execution minimal reward character when trying to win? No one, which is what we will see going forward.


This is why other than the diehard CSZ fans I promise you no one will touch this character. I was so hype for a big tourney this Sat, now I feel like not even showing up, or just sitting out. Why? To lose to Cutt Kano, Kotal, moon buffed Jason, still super strong Demo, and godlike Takeda that my main competition will be using? With this watered down shell of a character? I don't think I have the energy to switch characters again so I might just attend this tourney, lose, and call it a game.


I dunno. This one hurt the most. Kinda killed my interest at the moment in the game because I don't want to switch characters again. CSZ was THEE character for me, super hype for him and he was good while being fair, but now he's no different than any other useless variation that has a ton of bad MUs and barely any good ones, if any. While those other Top Tier chars get a pat on the back for being so strong. This isn't tweaking like we've seen done before. This is Injustice Scorpion levels of bad nerfing to a character that wasn't even on that level. This is why when people were so happy about prolonged support I was one of the few who didn't like the idea. I'd rather a few patches and then leaving patching only for glitches, not balancing. You're always having to readjust and relearn the game when that shouldn't be the case. Especially a year later.


Maybe I'll get over it with time, or find the energy to practice a new character eventually. Maybe I'll try a different fighting game. I dunno. But as of now I'm done with the character and the game. Hope you guys that stay with the character find some stuff to help you stay alive against this empowered roster. CSZ community was/is for sure the best one I'd been a part of, similar to the early on Kano community.

man very well said. I feel exactly the same way, I was so excited about this character he was to me the funnest character I've ever seen in a fighting game, it crushes me that they killed him as he was so unique, and killing him just really hits me in my motivation center for mkx, we will never see a character this cool again, people saying "just pick a new character thats MKX" are kind of missing the point

Like 12 hours ago I would be defending Cyber Sub and saying he was still quite good but oh man... These nerfs hit WAY harder in real games than they did on the patch notes sheet.

Depends how good you are at recognizing the repercussions of the patch notes

 

[THTB]

whats this better safe than sorry shit i see you two going on about? What?

Basically a bunch of nerfing in order to make sure the character wasn't too good...disregarding the idea that they may be too much.

I don't understand the details as to why they stop patch support after only a year, but whatever the reasoning, given the history of NRS DLC, they're trying not to end up with overbearing DLC characters.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Basically a bunch of nerfing in order to make sure the character wasn't too good...disregarding the idea that they may be too much.

I don't understand the details as to why they stop patch support after only a year, but whatever the reasoning, given the history of NRS DLC, they're trying not to end up with overbearing DLC characters.

true true... if they ARE going to abandon support, it's better that they do it without leaving broken characters in... however it would be nice if we had a balance dev who understood, you know, balance...