CSZ Bomb Idiosyncrasies

[UsedForGlue]

If CSZ is constantly freezing with ice-bombs, now all of a sudden I will be able to plant bombs near the opponent and dive-kick or enhanced dive-kick on them to keep them in block stun long enough for the bomb to trigger.

CSZ would also very easily be able to put the opponent into block strings that would guarantee a freeze (b2,2 xx slide). ice-bombs in general could also cover ice-slides and the slide could be used to put the opponent in block if timed correctly.

I understand the scenario you are purposing, but let me ask you this, Can you block stun an opponent with a dive kick into a bomb after a slide currently? No, so why should it be any different after the bomb starts freezing?

I am uploading a video to show that it is not possible currently, and the bombs freezing will not change that.

 

[UsedForGlue]

 

[REO]

The fact that a better character (Sub-Zero) is receiving buffs, it negates all arguments against buffing CSZ and many other characters.

 

[NYCj360]

The fact that a better character (Sub-Zero) is receiving buffs, it negates all arguments against buffing CSZ and many other characters.

i couldn't agree anymore.

CD. Jr, Maxter and i sat trying to figure out if there was any possible way to control the outcome and there isnt. I believe the only addition CSZ needs is a bomb game that is consistent. A set of conditions that must be met in order to freeze or just knock down. CSZ is my main and i just play as if the bombs will never freeze, but when they do i get a bonus. The fact that an ICE BOMB FREEZING is a BONUS is just absurd.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I am never prepared for the bombs freezing, it is crazy.

 

[BehindTheLight]

Wow, the video is so fucking bad, it's basically unwatchable.

 

[RamenO]

Wow, the video is so fucking bad, it's basically unwatchable.

How is it bad? The audio is quite clear, and you can make out what's happening(which is what matters as he's just giving examples of what he's speaking of).

I don't agree that Cyber's teleport is bad, I don't see why you'd even have a complaint with his teleport. Altaire pretty much covered why. I can't speak on the U4 cancel or the poke game(his D1 doesn't seem too bad). However, not being able to D3 after a dash sounds like a mechanic flaw that should be fixed. So hopefully attention is paid to that issue.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I admire the effort on this video. I'm just disappointed that it went to Cyber Sub Zero, an already respectable character.

 

[Niflheim]

Make bombs consistent freezing(would be very easy), allow freeze later in combo after bomb freeze(debatable), change teleport animation to MKvsDC(not neccesary but would be nice), oh, and you know what would be nice and probably the most important?
Change the fucking mid bomb to F, D, F, 3 or remap all bombs to 4.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Make bombs consistent freezing(would be very easy), allow freeze later in combo after bomb freeze(debatable), change teleport animation to MKvsDC(not neccesary but would be nice), oh, and you know what would be nice and probably the most important?
Change the fucking mid bomb to F, D, F, 3 or remap all bombs to 4.

All bombs mapped to 4, slide to 3, agreed.

Again, there are no scenarios that would grant Cyber a guaranteed bomb placement after a freeze combo once into bomb is removed. Same as Cyrax's, he has no 100% guaranteed bomb traps that result from him having a bomb after a net.

 

[Error]

Change the fucking mid bomb to F, D, F, 3 or remap all bombs to 4.

I was rooting for the F3 placement for mid bomb :/

 

[galindo]

I agree with altaire

Removing. The u4 bomb, and vhanging his pokes is silly and unecessary.

However it would be nice to see more bomb freezes.

 

[Killphil]

Well for one, Cyber's bombs freeze and Cyrax's launch. I don't necessarily disagree with Cyber's bombs being more like Cyrax's but not because they are similar moves but because Cyber's bombs have some silly issues. If Cyrax wasn't in this game or didn't have his bombs at all would you still think Cyber's bombs would be in need of a buff?
Do you think all moves in the game that are similar need to have the exact same properties? It is wrong that Ermac's EX telepunch is just as unsafe as his normal telepunch but Scorpion's EX telepunch is safe? Both of their telepunches are exactly the same other than Ermac's EX being unsafe of course. Is it wrong that Rain's Lightning is blockable and NW's is unblockable? Should every fireball in the game be exactly the same? I would say not. Just because one character has a move and another character has a similar move doesn't mean they need to be exactly the same but i guess that is just my opinion

Also, i didn't notice anywhere in this thread or in your video if you talked about how Cyber's bombs are easy to misfire thanks to negative edge (i might have missed it, forgive me if i did). What is your opinion on Cyber's bombs related to negative edge? I hate dashing forward then trying to pressure with a string beginning with 3 and accidentally throwing out a bomb lol. I guess it is avoidable but maybe if there was a change to either the inputs for the bombs or negative edge it would just be one less thing to have to worry about that is a kind of silly thing to have to worry about to begin with.

Ermac's EX teleport punch "buff" to emulate scorpions has already been discussed as the only plausible thing he "needs"(I'm like 50/50 with that) in his own thread. If Cyrax weren't in the game I'd still say they need to work out that silly ass plop on the ground issue. You really can't shoot bombs out without knocking down first, and if you do that the bomb doesn't even do what its supposed to providing it hits. He's not talking about the bombs having the same exact effect, he's saying when you get hit by a Cyrax bomb NO MATTER WHAT your ass is flying. If he had the same rules as csub the bomb trap thing wouldn't of been half as bad because you'd just plop to the ground because he's shooting it while you're in stagger state. He's trying to say that a very unsafe/unreliable move could at least be consistent if you manage to get a hit with it. The thing about Rain's lightning is the animation is a lot faster albeit still unsafe he doesn't sit in that damn shaman ritual pose for a year and a day. Don't take this as an attack, I'm just adding to the discussion.

 

[Killphil]

The fact that a better character (Sub-Zero) is receiving buffs, it negates all arguments against buffing CSZ and many other characters.

I wonder if the slide buff going to apply to csub as well.....

 

[xxvic1ousxx]

Very good video, and I agree with most of these points. Though, I disagree with the removal of u.4 xx Ice Bomb entirely. Instead, I'd rather see u.4 do less hit stun on a standing opponent. This should give players a way out of the u.4 xx Ice Bomb reset, but allow C. Sub- Zero to still 2,1, 1+2 -- u.4 xx Ice Bomb for pressure.

A meterless 50%+ reset is too much, and has to go. But, 2,1, 1+2 -- u.4 xx Ice Bomb isn't guaranteed, and doesn't warrant the removal of u.4 xx Ice Bomb altogether.

 

[R0bot1cColumbus]

Why do robots have abs?

 

[xTac]

Removing UP4 ice bomb is only acceptable depending on which other buffs he gets.

To be quite honest.... this thread started as a bomb fix and the OP now wants to redesign the character FULLY. OP suggestions:

-ALL pokes to be changed.
-bombs to freeze in all scenarios
-bombs button remapping
-larger blast radius on bombs
-up4 cancel gone
-back to back parry gone
-character to have a better teleport


a bit too far much?? Like.... almost having us re-learn how to play the character.

Same as Cyrax's, he has no 100% guaranteed bomb traps that result from him having a bomb after a net.

Here is a possible infinite bomb trap if CSZ is allowed to drop bombs when opponent is frozen:

2,1 xx Iceball, put out mid bomb while frozen, up4, (opponent wakes up in a bomb and refreezes), put out mid bomb while frozen, up4(opponent wakes up in a bomb and refreezes), forever till infinity.........and im not even canceling the up4..... this would work if bombs get the buff because UP4 ends the combo putting the opponent out of the refreeze rule.

This might not work if the opponent is able to hold down and delay getting up... but can easily be countered by canceling the UP4 into close bomb.... this way you would have one bomb explode if he goes for fast wakeup and another for the delayed wake up. Obviously im just speaking my mind here since I CANT TEST THIS as the character is unable to do it in the current build.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Here is a possible infinite bomb trap if CSZ is allowed to drop bombs when opponent is frozen:

2,1 xx Iceball, put out mid bomb while frozen, up4, (opponent wakes up in a bomb and refreezes), put out mid bomb while frozen, up4(opponent wakes up in a bomb and refreezes), forever till infinity.........and im not even canceling the up4..... this would work if bombs get the buff because UP4 ends the combo putting the opponent out of the refreeze rule.

This might not work if the opponent is able to hold down and delay getting up... but can easily be countered by canceling the UP4 into close bomb.... this way you would have one bomb explode if he goes for fast wakeup and another for the delayed wake up. Obviously im just speaking my mind here since I CANT TEST THIS as the character is unable to do it in the current build.

Not possible, because like cyrax you wont be able to shoot bombs while the other guy is netted/frozen

 

[xTac]

Not possible, because like cyrax you wont be able to shoot bombs while the other guy is netted/frozen

Yeah... I misunderstood this would be possible after the suggested buff.

(*from my previous post: "obviously im just speaking my mind here since I CANT TEST THIS as the character is unable to do it in the current build")

Nevermind, then... thank you for correcting me.

 

[Prinz]

Hi. I don't know if I can agree with everything here. I played CSZ just a little bit and found it interesting that the bombs have both freezing and just damaging properties (although I don't remember at what moment each property of the bomb occurs), but the damaging range of the bomb, especially when it only does damage is horrible, very rarely I managed to hit the opponent with it. Now, the middle bomb: I actually never even fought a match because of this crap appearing after dash, damn, 33../34 are fucking awesome strings AND I CAN'T DO THEM AFTER DASH?! What the hell? Button input changes proposed by Glue seem pretty decent, but they could just change the middle bomb input (fb3 for example).

 

[PANDEMlC]

This is why I've been slowly going away from Cyber Sub, his flaws make playing him boring and crappy in a lot of situations.

If he could at least get his bombs fixed I'd be fine but his teleport should be buffed. Sucks he doesn't have any pokes that are good.

 

[Niflheim]

After thinking about this, this is my final opinion: Just make his bombs freeze 100%, and remap midbomb. His teleport's fine, just don't use it unless you freeze someone fullscreen, then teleport.
Changing his pokes and removing the Up+4, Bomb set-up is just stupid and unneccesary. I think this might change too much of the character. His teleport changing animations would be pretty cool, but that's more of NRS's choice than an actual complaint.
So, everyone, we must think of it this way:
Does Cyber Sub-Zero really needs buffs, or does he just need to be fixed?

 

[MortySeinfeld]

I understand the scenario you are purposing, but let me ask you this, Can you block stun an opponent with a dive kick into a bomb after a slide currently? No, so why should it be any different after the bomb starts freezing?

I am uploading a video to show that it is not possible currently, and the bombs freezing will not change that.

I think you're misunderstanding me, I appreciate the video but that was not what I was referring to.

I agree that there currently are not ways to guarantee that an ice-bomb lands after a combo based upon how the opponent is able to react, freeze rules and wake-up game.

What I was referring to are ways to get a bomb to land in general prior to a combo, setting you up for a combo (in the event that bombs always freeze). Think of it as being similar to how Cyrax currently traps with his bombs and nets based on screen control and the opponents positioning, only with CSZ replace the thought of Cyrax using a net to CSZ using dive-kick/enhanced dive-kick to hold the enemy in place as a bomb is waiting to explode.

Or the thought of CSZ putting a bomb out and holding the opponent in hit/block-stun with combo strings while the bomb is waiting to explode/freeze. The lunge-forward properties on b2,2 seem like it would do the trick and if you need to hold them in more stun or a possible hit you could even b2,2 xx slide based on your distance from the opponent and an ice-bomb being active on the screen.

My thoughts are this, since there is a switch that is currently in the game that we are able to turn on that guarantees a freeze for every ice-bomb; It would be interesting to see you UsedForGlue play some matches with players like FoxyGrandpa, Mustard, Ketchup (assuming you live near them and this is feasible) to see how dramatically different the pace of the matches are with a guaranteed freeze per bomb exploding. As you play, put a stronger emphasis on trapping with the bombs by holding them in block-stun in practical scenarios.

I might do the same to see how my CSZ does against some locals here and post some videos.

In regards to the u4 xx ice-bomb cancels, my opinion is that it should stay.

My reasoning is that, as far as I can tell, the only practical scenario where the u4 actually hits is at the tail-end of a combo.

ex: 2,1 xx ice-ball, 2,1, 1+2, dash, u4 xx mid-bomb or slide

In regards to the mid-bomb cancel after the u4, the opponent is put in a wake-up state that the opponent is able to tech-roll or wake-up with an attack if you are going to dash forward with pressure.

u4 by itself is not reliable because it is easy to crouch or crouch-block. You can't even guarantee that it hits on block after a blocked jump-in-punch which forces your opponent to stand because they are able to crouch before the u4 will even hit and CSZ is left in a state that is easily punishable because of the u4 whiff.

I think the u4 cancels should be left as they currently are, and still stand by the change that I had proposed where a bomb-freeze should be dependent on your distance from the opponent (similar to Sub-Zero's ice-clone).

 

[UsedForGlue]

The bottom line is, into mid bomb after a freeze breaks the rules, it even allows you to drop a bomb after a combo starting with a bomb...

We actually wont need thisu Mid Bomb) if he can legitimately drop bombs after an Ice Ball combo.

For the life of me, I don't know why you guys would want to keep this trap, as it is less legit than the traps we could have if we got rid of into bombs, the trap will get your 36%, when you could have a legit reset at 32-35%, and a bomb that will freeze if we fix this. We don't need it, we have been making the most of a bad situation with this new trap.

Cyrax: JIP : NET, NJP, , MID BOMB = 30-35%
Cyber: JIP ICE BALL, JIP + MID BOMB = 30-35% And this bomb will freeze.

As for the teleport, I will repeat, It will give Cyber Sub his own teleport and not one that is tacked on, the MKvsDC teleport would work the eaxact same, except a parry option would be more plausible afterwards. NOTE: IT WOULD MAKE NO GAMEPLAY CHANGE WHAT SO EVER, it would only be aesthetics, my point is, the animation is there and its not used. Its not asking for a ''Better'' teleport, If you have not played MKvsDC then you will not know what I am talking about.

It seems allot of the people that don't agree with these changes and can't fathom them for what they are, are mostly ''Offline players'' and have never played CZS competitively, and if they did, they would understand the changes, and ESPECIALLY the Poke/Parry situation, and the impossible feat of closing space without dying every time on Ermac for example.

Guys, please, stop with the whole ''This guy is crying for nerfs'' ''So what?'' attitude and look at the points raised pragmatically. You will realise they make sense. I know this character like the back of my hand and would never make this much of an effort just for changes to try grab some sort of unfair advantage with my main character, none of these BUFF the charcater, they simply Balance him out.

 

[UsedForGlue]

After thinking about this, this is my final opinion: Just make his bombs freeze 100%, and remap midbomb. His teleport's fine, just don't use it unless you freeze someone fullscreen, then teleport.
Changing his pokes and removing the Up+4, Bomb set-up is just stupid and unneccesary. I think this might change too much of the character. His teleport changing animations would be pretty cool, but that's more of NRS's choice than an actual complaint.
So, everyone, we must think of it this way:
Does Cyber Sub-Zero really needs buffs, or does he just need to be fixed?

Yet again, these are not buffs.

All these points are raised, not because I or anyone else wants him ''better'' ''Buffed'' or ''Stronger'' but because they need FIXED.

And I forgot, about the Teleport.

The Bangport CYrax style teleport was given to cryax, so he can take a trade and still make it on time for a combo.

Cyber after a trade, has the fastest dash in the game, he can still dash after a trade and make it for a combo, so what else does he have it for? to close space and get in??? If that was the intent, then they got it wrong. Again, against a half smart opponent, he has no way to close space without dying.