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CSZ Bomb Idiosyncrasies

nyght87

Noob
Watched the video and you make some good points. I agree that some changes should be made to his bombs, I don't really agree however with your comparing cyber sub-zero's bombs with cyrax's though, saying "well if Cyrax's bombs are like this then cyber sub-zero's should be more like that also". In my opinion just because two moves from two different characters in the game are similar doesn't mean they should act the same but yeah CSZ's bombs do need some tweaking.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
Watched the video and you make some good points. I agree that some changes should be made to his bombs, I don't really agree however with your comparing cyber sub-zero's bombs with cyrax's though, saying "well if Cyrax's bombs are like this then cyber sub-zero's should be more like that also". In my opinion just because two moves from two different characters in the game are similar doesn't mean they should act the same but yeah CSZ's bombs do need some tweaking.
You don't agree with Cyrax and Cyber's bombs having the same properties? They are the exact same move...

Then what is the difference between them?

The difference is, one set works, and the other does not.
 

JennyCage

t('.'t)
Haha, if you had posted this thread without a video, everyone would be screaming, "SHUT UP NOOB, CYBER'S BOMBS ARE FINE!"
 
I agree with this.

What I would like to see done to CSZ's ice-bombs would be something similar to Sub-Zero's Ice-Clone in terms of spacing.

As everyone knows, if you are point blank next to Sub-Zero and Sub-Zero performs an ice-clone, he will simply back away and the clone will not be created and Sub-Zero is actually given a 4 second penalty where he is unable to use clone during that cool-down time.

With CSZ, this same radius effect should be taken into consideration where the following becomes true:

- If the opponent is hit with an ice bomb AND CSZ is within close proximity to the opponent, then bomb explodes and the opponent is knocked down (8%).
- If the opponent is hit with an ice bomb AND CSZ is not within close proximity to the opponent, then bomb explodes and the opponent is frozen.

As this tool is currently, there is very little consistency.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
I agree with this.

What I would like to see done to CSZ's ice-bombs would be something similar to Sub-Zero's Ice-Clone in terms of spacing.

As everyone knows, if you are point blank next to Sub-Zero and Sub-Zero performs an ice-clone, he will simply back away and the clone will not be created and Sub-Zero is actually given a 4 second penalty where he is unable to use clone during that cool-down time.

With CSZ, this same radius effect should be taken into consideration where the following becomes true:

- If the opponent is hit with an ice bomb AND CSZ is within close proximity to the opponent, then bomb explodes and the opponent is knocked down (8%).
- If the opponent is hit with an ice bomb AND CSZ is not within close proximity to the opponent, then bomb explodes and the opponent is frozen.

As this tool is currently, there is very little consistency.
That is also a good idea, but even if the bombs freeze from any distance, there are still NO POSSIBLE infinite scenarios by a bomb freezing because of the double freeze rule.
 

Altaire

Noob
It'd be good but they'd have to make the ice parry punishable to compensate, back to back parries isnt... *cool*
...What the hell does this have to do with his bombs, in any way?

Also, the first big MK9 patch (the one that gave Baraka a considerable buff) installed a switch that, when active, makes Cyber Sub's bombs freeze 100% of the time. This switch is obviously still turned off, but clearly, they took this issue into consideration. It'd just be a simple hotfix to activate that switch if they saw fit, from what I gather.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
...What the hell does this have to do with his bombs, in any way?

Also, the first big MK9 patch (the one that gave Baraka a considerable buff) installed a switch that, when active, makes Cyber Sub's bombs freeze 100% of the time. This switch is obviously still turned off, but clearly, they took this issue into consideration. It'd just be a simple hotfix to activate that switch if they saw fit, from what I gather.
Really?

Thats massive news!

Where did you hear this?
 

Ether

Noob
Cyrax's bombs hit, he gets a combo or even a capture if he wants.
CSZ's bombs hit, vast majority of the time he can't get a combo and can NEVER get a capture. Um.

Cyrax's teleport has invincibility frames and no cooldown.
CSZ's teleport is totally vulnerable and has a cooldown for some reason. Um.
 
i am SO glad Cyber Sub is getting the attention he needs. Hopefully at least some of these issues will be heard by the ears of thoes working at NRS and something gets done. all the best.
 

Altaire

Noob
I couldn't disagree with this any more. The bombs freezing 100% of the time is about the only part that make sense. Bear with me here, because I'm really going into detail about everything wrong with this article.


First off, lack of space control from the ground? Cage has that. He has a mediocre fireball, and a fullscreen attack that's punishable by full combos on block. Hell, Cage doesn't have space control from the air, either. He can use EX shadow kick to close the gap, but if you guess wrong, you're eating a full combo, and if you get flushed out again, you're burning more meter to get in. If you don't have any to burn, welp, you're fucked. This doesn't mean Cage is bad by any means, because Cage is very much top tier, and that's my point: Not everyone in this game thrives on space control. It's a huge asset in any 2D fighter, but a character can be worthwhile without it.


The U4 cancel is great, but it's far from overpowered. You can't just throw it out at the start of a combo, because it's absolutely punishable on block. It's fine if you have a guaranteed punish, such as if you get a crossup on an opponent in the middle of an attack animation, but it's not going to be your go-to combo. How can you get an "infinite chain of bombs"? If you're suggesting U4 mid bomb -> dash 2 1 2 -> U4 mid bomb, delayed wakeup beats that trap. It's escapable, and on the other hand, it's just one reason Cyber Subs is a great character who in no way needs buffing: It's a great way to stuff your opponent's wakeup game (as many characters will just get interrupted by the bomb during their wakeup).


As for getting out-poked, so what? If you read a poke attempt, you can jump back and do an instant close divekick (the D3 input). That does a hell of a lot more damage than their poke will, and it'll make them think twice about poking. More than that, seriously think about this for a minute: You're complaining about the fact that opponents will be reduced to poking you to death, for fear of eating an EX parry and taking a full combo? If they land a combo starter, you're probably eating a 30 or 40% combo for it. If they land a poke, you're eating... Three? Three percent? Poking is definitely an effective tool in MK9; Mileena is a testament to that. However, it's a means of checking your opponent and wearing down their defense. If Cyber Subs can reduce most other characters to poking, I'd say that's pretty damn good. Back to back parry is still punishable no matter how close together your parry inputs are, by the way, I'd just like to point that out. Reptile can dash in between them, Kung Lao can spin in between them, Cage can flipkick, and so on. Hell, pretty much anyone who can combo off a jab string will absolutely ruin you for abusing the parry.


Okay, are we seriously complaining about Cyber Sub's teleport being useless? Let me guess, you're one of those people who thinks Sub Zero needs a teleport in MK9? I will NEVER understand why everyone, everywhere thinks that every character should have a Raiden teleport. First off, Cyber Sub's teleport primarily exists for one purposes: If he gets a freeze from 3/4 screen distance or greater, he can teleport to get in, even on a trade. Other than that, you can STILL use it to get in if you read a projectile with enough recovery time, a la Sub Zero's freeze and Reptile's forceballs. Like, a character with this kind of rushdown game who can close the gap this easily probably shouldn't have this kind of teleport. About the only buff that I can see being at all reasonable is to put his standard teleport on par with Cyrax's, and he still doesn't "need" that. I'd also like to take this time to point out that EX teleport is a godsend, and despite what most people think at first glance, it is absolutely worth the meter at times. It's the ultimate solution to crossups, and even if you use a naked EX teleport, it's very safe. Above and beyond all this, Cyber Subs just doesn't need a teleport. He has one of the fastest dashes in the game (on par with Sektor, IIRC), and he can intentionally whiff divekicks to close the distance, a la Reptile's elbow dash. In either case, Cyber Subs can currently has access to a great teleport; he has to burn meter to use it, but I'm fine with that. If his normal teleport was that good, he'd be ridiculously overpowered.


Lastly, short divekick off B2 4: This just sounds like cheese potential to me. First off, the divekick would be completely safe at that distance, and second, I can already see it giving him access to ridiculous combos. He can already land B2 off a successful 3 4, which he can also use to follow a bomb, and I can only imagine how ridiculous it'd be if he could easily use 3 4 B2 4 EX divekick. Every successful freeze from a bomb would get up in the 40% range, which is just ridiculous. In all likelihood, the ability to X-ray after B2 4 (and B3 2, for that matter) wasn't a conscious choice by the developers, it was just something that wound up being possible in the current build. It's whatever. tl;dr version: Cyber Subs is fine, he just takes work. If he's not top tier, he's VERY near to it, and he's an absolutely solid character. Bombs freezing 100% of the time would be nice for consistency's sake, but there is not a damn thing this character needs; he's fine as is, and there are already ways around that to ensure a guaranteed freeze. Hell, if he inherits the same slide alterations that Sub Zero's getting in the next patch, that'll make it even easier for him to get in.

EDIT: I really have no idea why all of the line breaks in my post disappeared after I submitted it, but okay.
 
i rele hope this gets some good consideration. i think cyber has huge potential but its those little problems can make a huge difference. with the poking game so important, his pokes are garbage. i never understood why they still didnt change his bomb to 4. if i could just dash quick in quickly and use 34 or 332 without releasing a bomb instead i would love cyber
 
I said this in the thread, but i'll say it here as well.

What I would like to see done to CSZ's ice-bombs would be something similar to Sub-Zero's Ice-Clone in terms of spacing. As everyone knows, if you are point blank next to Sub-Zero and Sub-Zero performs an ice-clone, he will simply back away and the clone will not be created and Sub-Zero is actually given a 4 second penalty where he is unable to use clone during that cool-down time.

With CSZ, this same radius effect should be taken into consideration where the following becomes true:

- If the opponent is hit with an ice bomb AND CSZ is within close proximity to the opponent, then bomb explodes and the opponent is knocked down (8%).

- If the opponent is hit with an ice bomb AND CSZ is not within close proximity to the opponent, then bomb explodes and the opponent is frozen.

As this tool is currently, there is very little consistency.

My concern with the ice-bomb Always freezing is that I think it is too strong of a buff.

If CSZ is constantly freezing with ice-bombs, now all of a sudden I will be able to plant bombs near the opponent and dive-kick or enhanced dive-kick on them to keep them in block stun long enough for the bomb to trigger.

CSZ would also very easily be able to put the opponent into block strings that would guarantee a freeze (b2,2 xx slide). ice-bombs in general could also cover ice-slides and the slide could be used to put the opponent in block if timed correctly.

By having the bomb freeze based off of CSZ's distance to the opponent it can legitimately be used as a trap tool, and not as a method of keeping the opponent in block stun for free combos.

The other recommendation I agree with is swapping the bombs to button 4, and the slide to button 3. I think this will alleviate a lot of input issues that CSZ players have.

In regards to improving his pokes, I think he actually has a pretty good down 3. If the bombs and slide were swapped to 4 and 3 respectively it will allow for dash, down 3 to be used more effectively. Currently with bombs accidentally coming out after a dash, this makes his pokes feel lackluster.
 

UsedForGlue

"Strength isn't everything"
I couldn't disagree with this any more. The bombs freezing 100% of the time is about the only part that make sense. Bear with me here, because I'm really going into detail about everything wrong with this article.


First off, lack of space control from the ground? Cage has that. He has a mediocre fireball, and a fullscreen attack that's punishable by full combos on block. Hell, Cage doesn't have space control from the air, either. He can use EX shadow kick to close the gap, but if you guess wrong, you're eating a full combo, and if you get flushed out again, you're burning more meter to get in. If you don't have any to burn, welp, you're fucked. This doesn't mean Cage is bad by any means, because Cage is very much top tier, and that's my point: Not everyone in this game thrives on space control. It's a huge asset in any 2D fighter, but a character can be worthwhile without it.


The U4 cancel is great, but it's far from overpowered. You can't just throw it out at the start of a combo, because it's absolutely punishable on block. It's fine if you have a guaranteed punish, such as if you get a crossup on an opponent in the middle of an attack animation, but it's not going to be your go-to combo. How can you get an "infinite chain of bombs"? If you're suggesting U4 mid bomb -> dash 2 1 2 -> U4 mid bomb, delayed wakeup beats that trap. It's escapable, and on the other hand, it's just one reason Cyber Subs is a great character who in no way needs buffing: It's a great way to stuff your opponent's wakeup game (as many characters will just get interrupted by the bomb during their wakeup).


As for getting out-poked, so what? If you read a poke attempt, you can jump back and do an instant close divekick (the D3 input). That does a hell of a lot more damage than their poke will, and it'll make them think twice about poking. More than that, seriously think about this for a minute: You're complaining about the fact that opponents will be reduced to poking you to death, for fear of eating an EX parry and taking a full combo? If they land a combo starter, you're probably eating a 30 or 40% combo for it. If they land a poke, you're eating... Three? Three percent? Poking is definitely an effective tool in MK9; Mileena is a testament to that. However, it's a means of checking your opponent and wearing down their defense. If Cyber Subs can reduce most other characters to poking, I'd say that's pretty damn good. Back to back parry is still punishable no matter how close together your parry inputs are, by the way, I'd just like to point that out. Reptile can dash in between them, Kung Lao can spin in between them, Cage can flipkick, and so on. Hell, pretty much anyone who can combo off a jab string will absolutely ruin you for abusing the parry.


Okay, are we seriously complaining about Cyber Sub's teleport being useless? Let me guess, you're one of those people who thinks Sub Zero needs a teleport in MK9? I will NEVER understand why everyone, everywhere thinks that every character should have a Raiden teleport. First off, Cyber Sub's teleport primarily exists for one purposes: If he gets a freeze from 3/4 screen distance or greater, he can teleport to get in, even on a trade. Other than that, you can STILL use it to get in if you read a projectile with enough recovery time, a la Sub Zero's freeze and Reptile's forceballs. Like, a character with this kind of rushdown game who can close the gap this easily probably shouldn't have this kind of teleport. About the only buff that I can see being at all reasonable is to put his standard teleport on par with Cyrax's, and he still doesn't "need" that. I'd also like to take this time to point out that EX teleport is a godsend, and despite what most people think at first glance, it is absolutely worth the meter at times. It's the ultimate solution to crossups, and even if you use a naked EX teleport, it's very safe. Above and beyond all this, Cyber Subs just doesn't need a teleport. He has one of the fastest dashes in the game (on par with Sektor, IIRC), and he can intentionally whiff divekicks to close the distance, a la Reptile's elbow dash. In either case, Cyber Subs can currently has access to a great teleport; he has to burn meter to use it, but I'm fine with that. If his normal teleport was that good, he'd be ridiculously overpowered.


Lastly, short divekick off B2 4: This just sounds like cheese potential to me. First off, the divekick would be completely safe at that distance, and second, I can already see it giving him access to ridiculous combos. He can already land B2 off a successful 3 4, which he can also use to follow a bomb, and I can only imagine how ridiculous it'd be if he could easily use 3 4 B2 4 EX divekick. Every successful freeze from a bomb would get up in the 40% range, which is just ridiculous. In all likelihood, the ability to X-ray after B2 4 (and B3 2, for that matter) wasn't a conscious choice by the developers, it was just something that wound up being possible in the current build. It's whatever. tl;dr version: Cyber Subs is fine, he just takes work. If he's not top tier, he's VERY near to it, and he's an absolutely solid character. Bombs freezing 100% of the time would be nice for consistency's sake, but there is not a damn thing this character needs; he's fine as is, and there are already ways around that to ensure a guaranteed freeze. Hell, if he inherits the same slide alterations that Sub Zero's getting in the next patch, that'll make it even easier for him to get in.

EDIT: I really have no idea why all of the line breaks in my post disappeared after I submitted it, but okay.
First of all, thanks for reply, you obviously feel as much for these issues as I do.

I am not comparing CSZ's air control to any other characters Air control, that's an unfair card to play and will end up going around in circles, and if you want to compare characters for argument strength, then ok, Cage has around 7-11 ways to anti air an opponent, and if you get Anti aired with :fp you will end up taking 25%+ and reset with a nut punch. So lets not compare characters for arguments sake.

:u:bk into Mid Bomb currently breaks the rules that are set even though the current bomb rules he has are supposed to prevent resets like that happening, I am looking for the bombs to come out after a JIP Ice Ball combo, to give LEGIT RESETS for pressure that are much more escapable than the current GLITCH we have now. You can not say that current trap was found in testing, and if it was, it would break the current rules, and those rules prevent us from having a much better legit way to use them.

You also look at the pokes the same way most people wrongly look at them, Mileena players will say ''It's only 3%'', but that 3% prevents you from taking 40%, it can't be justified that way. Just take a look at in the CSZ forum in the ''Videos'' section to see a CSZ player getting destroyed by :d:fp, it's all there to see.

No matter what way you look at it, the Dive kick is not safe, and in High Level, will get you killed if you time it wrong and or throw it out blindly, :b:bp:bk is only one string that I purposing to add a dive kick to, and IF this is changed, it will change the way we play CSZ, as currently, it is a mess of dive kicks and back to back parrys.

The teleport issue is my own issue, not one expressed of Reo or anyone else, my point is, they have a perfectly fitting animation for his own teleport, and it is not used, it still will have the same properties from cyrax''s, (as it did in MKvsDC) unsafe with a parry option. Nothing will change, only the aesthetics.

I hope this clears everything up.

Thank you
 

nyght87

Noob
Then what is the difference between them?

The difference is, one set works, and the other does not.
Well for one, Cyber's bombs freeze and Cyrax's launch. I don't necessarily disagree with Cyber's bombs being more like Cyrax's but not because they are similar moves but because Cyber's bombs have some silly issues. If Cyrax wasn't in this game or didn't have his bombs at all would you still think Cyber's bombs would be in need of a buff?
Do you think all moves in the game that are similar need to have the exact same properties? It is wrong that Ermac's EX telepunch is just as unsafe as his normal telepunch but Scorpion's EX telepunch is safe? Both of their telepunches are exactly the same other than Ermac's EX being unsafe of course. Is it wrong that Rain's Lightning is blockable and NW's is unblockable? Should every fireball in the game be exactly the same? I would say not. Just because one character has a move and another character has a similar move doesn't mean they need to be exactly the same but i guess that is just my opinion :)

Also, i didn't notice anywhere in this thread or in your video if you talked about how Cyber's bombs are easy to misfire thanks to negative edge (i might have missed it, forgive me if i did). What is your opinion on Cyber's bombs related to negative edge? I hate dashing forward then trying to pressure with a string beginning with 3 and accidentally throwing out a bomb lol. I guess it is avoidable but maybe if there was a change to either the inputs for the bombs or negative edge it would just be one less thing to have to worry about that is a kind of silly thing to have to worry about to begin with.