CSZ Bomb Idiosyncrasies

Discussion in 'Sub-Zero [Cyber]' started by UsedForGlue, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    This video is to do with Cyber Sub-Zero's (RoboFrio) Bomb Problems, Poke/Parry Issues, along with some solutions to his problems, including his teleport and lack of space control from the ground.

    Me and Reo believe he is NOT a top tier character, especially because of his back to back parry/poke issues, and here is the preposed solutions to those problems.

    Bombs do not freeze everytime, in order to prevent Infinite combos etc, although, this is not possible because of Sub-Zero's double Freeze Rule, after a bomb, no bomb, after a freeze no bomb, after a freeze no freeze.

    After an ice ball you should be able to continue your combo, ending in a freeze, as cyrax currently has this rule with his net into bomb ending combos. NOTE: There are no possible infinite bomb combos with Cyber Sub, the double freeze and double bomb rule stop this from happening, further rules that cyber sub zero has to follow are not necessary. Allowing his :u:bk to have a mid bomb allows for almost infinite bomb traps that launch the opponent for 50% combo's meterless, so that chain of :u:bk into Bombs, has to go.

    The Back to Back Parry ability comes at the expense of his Pokes: :d:fp & :d:fk, so against poking opponents, you will be poked out of your ''Back to back parry'' and you still won't be able to out poke them in a parry situation, cyber gets ruined by poking opponents and ruins opponents that cannot.

    His Teleport is tacked on and usless, they currently have a better teleport animation in the game with Cyber Tag Swap, its the teleport from MKvsDC, it was unsafe, but you had a parry option. This would lend excellent to cyber being able to close space without dive kicking and being punished simply because he has no other options.

    You cannot Dive Kick from his ''Freezing Pain'' Sting: :l:bp:bk, yet you can :x, but you can't land it midscreen, but only from a juggle in a corner... Allowing the short dive kick after this string would give cyber one option to close space safely without having to over commit to everything, and make sense of his otherwise ''thrown together'' combos.

    I have attached a video with explanations for both me and Reo's points.

    This is not a case of wanting the character ''Better'' but simply fixing him, as he is unfinished and rough around the edges in his current state.

    These are the major issues. Feel free to discuss, and thank you for your attention and support.

  2. PND_Mustard

    PND_Mustard "More stealthful than the night"
    Premium Supporter News Editor Official ESL Gaming

    watched the whole thing and i agree entirely, but given most character are either lacking a few aspects to make them truely great, and some debatably have too much, instead of changing it all in one big patch, i feel we should wait for the next version, the super sf4 to sf4 if you will, i guess we'll have to wait and see
  3. A F0xy Grampa

    A F0xy Grampa Problem X Promotions
    Premium Supporter

    It'd be good but they'd have to make the ice parry punishable to compensate, back to back parries isnt... *cool*
  4. Rapid

    Rapid Magical Gaming Wizard

    It doesn't parry lows.

    And i agree, CSZ's bombs feel much more inconsistent.
  5. PND_Mustard

    PND_Mustard "More stealthful than the night"
    Premium Supporter News Editor Official ESL Gaming

  6. Error

    Error DF2+R2

    His parry is punishable.
  7. A F0xy Grampa

    A F0xy Grampa Problem X Promotions
    Premium Supporter

    Neither does Liu Kangs but he can still be punished for his parry, and he cant do them back to back
  8. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    :d:fk will chip Cyber out of it everytime, and he won't have the frame advantage to start another one up on time.
  9. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    The bottom line is, they put these second set of rules for Cyber's bombs into effect before the game came out and still have not updated it.

    All I ask is that Cyber gets the same bomb rules as Cyrax. Not only does Cyber get different rules, he also gets the smaller blast radius, and slower recovery on the move itself.
  10. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    I honestly think a cool down on his parry should be in effect, exactly the same way Lui Kang does.
  11. Sao87

    Sao87 @thedigitaldojo

    The blast radius is small on the bombs because of the potential synergy with different moves in my opinion. If they made it bigger I think a very common strategy would be to drop bombs and dive kick on people all day to put them in block stun for a guaranteed freeze or a free dive kick.

    Freeze with CSZ leads to guaranteed 30% damage combos with resets which is why they needed to put some limitations on the bombs, aka only grounded opponents get frozen. It seems really difficult to balance unblockables in this game without breaking things.
  12. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    Thanks for the support on this, I did gave good examples as to why Cyber doesn't have much space control.

    Asking for them to freeze everytime isn't much, they are already incredibly hard to hit an opponent with them as it is, because of the small blast and recovery.
  13. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    With that being said, what is the difference in dive kick stunning the opponent onto a bomb that will freeze, and Cyrax block stunning the opponent with a net and being caught by the edge of the blast radius.
  14. REO

    REO Undead
    Premium Supporter

    I agree with mostly everything.

    Here are Cyber Sub's big game design flaws:

    Ice Parry - Parries an attack from your opponent for 8% and knocks the opponent away from you. Against characters like Kabal, Kitana, Sub, Mileena, etc. why would you ever want to use this move? Do you know how hard it is to get in on them? Using this is just dumb in those match-ups. Not to mention, to "balance" out Cyber Sub they made his universal pokes (D+1 has 10 frames of start up, D+3 has D+1 cooldown, and D+4 has sweep recovery) to compensate, but again this is a huge flaw for his bad match-ups because he has zero footsies against any char with great poking and is forced to jump (which you cannot do VS them)

    Bombs - These are mapped to 3 and always come out when you don't need them due to negative edge and get you killed in a lot of situations. Why map them to 3 when Cyber Sub uses 3 for just about everything out of dashes? Cyber Sub doesn't even use 4, they should be mapped to that instead.

    Cyber Sub seems like Skarlet to a less degree (I place him in "Skarlet Tier) where he either dominates characters or gets dominated by them, he needs to be slightly tweaked and adjusted more properly so he's balanced out IMO.

    I rather they nerf his damage and ice parry and fix his bugged pokes and the bombs. I rarely even use ice parry much anyway, since it throws your opponent away from you
  15. A F0xy Grampa

    A F0xy Grampa Problem X Promotions
    Premium Supporter

    Ice parry issue would be easy to fix though, make it an untechable knockdown and give it some cooldown time
  16. Error

    Error DF2+R2

    Would his mid bomb be better off being a QCF motion? If his mid bomb was changed to FF4 would it affect combos ending in U+4
  17. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    Thanks Reo, I need the support from top american players to get this noticed, other wise nothing will be done about it.

    One of the concerns mentioned was that, if the bombs froze then you could throw out a bomb and dive kick at the opponent to land a block stun into the bomb. Thats already how it works now, and it still doesn't work like that, if you throw a long bomb, the opponent can easily take just half a dash out of the blast radius, and because the recovery time on the bomb throw out is so slow, even if you performed a dive kick immediately, you will not have recovered from a bomb special in time to put the moving opponent in a block stun within the blast radius from the dive kick.
  18. Sao87

    Sao87 @thedigitaldojo

    You're right, I wasn't trying to step on your toes. I think you are the best Cyber Sub Zero player I've seen so far and are way more qualified to speak on these issues than I am.

    I'm not as well versed on the potential he has with resets. But I do think he would be one of the best characters in the game if his bombs always froze. That being said I'd like to see the animation perhaps be changed to maybe an untechable knock down for a free safe jump opportunity? Maybe something like Johnny Cages nut punch? Something that is more of a reward for landing a bomb if it doesn't end up freezing them.

    Just wanted to say you have my co-sign on anything CSZ related though. To me you are in the same tier as Reo, Tom or PL when it comes to opinions on Cyber Sub.
  19. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    It's not as useful as people would think, especially against great players like yourself that poke in and out before strings. Against a simple JIP opponent or Dash into string, its easy to get off. But as I don't do back to back parrys, I don't see the problem in having the same cool down that Lui Kang has.
  20. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    Thank you for your kind words, please take a look at my quoted reply from REO for an explanation on why Dive kicking opponents into a bomb wont work given his current recovery time on his bombs into dive kicks.

    Nor would I want that to happen.
  21. Raian1614

    Raian1614 Noob

    this is so true
    CSZ is my main, and I like to think I am pretty good...but his ice bomb feels near useless and as a result feels completely stupid to use, in fact I'd go as far as to say its a disadvantage, because its really effs up dash in mix up options >_>"
  22. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    REO pointed out alot more problems that I completely agree with, bombs also being mapped to :fk gets you punished because of the negative edge, slide should go to :fk and all bombs to :bk

    They should freeze everytime, as they should follow the same rules as Cyrax's, also keep the same cool down and blast radius to prevent dive kick stunning into bombs.

    But with all that being said, the bombs need fixed badly.
  23. Ghost stalker

    Ghost stalker Cool guy

    Every time you did a far bomb you would slide, so you'd have to change that command, instead of mid bomb.
    On a side note mid bomb cant be qcf, have fun doing 33 into ice beam.

    To what glue said below me,
    That's a solution that would work just fine, what about dashing into 3,4? Could you cancel 3 into a bomb?
  24. UsedForGlue

    UsedForGlue "Strength isn't everything"
    Premium Supporter

    No, if the bombs were :bk and the slide was :fk, then it would be impossible to throw any bomb and slide unintentionally.

    For example, :l:r:bk would throw a bomb and :l:r:fk would slide. You could never accidentally slide dashing into :fk:fk as no other command on :fk would require a :r:r or :l:l
  25. Sao87

    Sao87 @thedigitaldojo

    The fix that we've been using here to avoid accidentally throwing bombs is to press back after a dash and then start your combo strings. Granted bombs should be mapped to 4 but this will fix input errors for the time being.

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